Russian Orthodox church calls on Pope Francis, UN for help in Ukraine

[StevenMerten]

I have to wonder, in the 'Gay Lobby' master plan, possibly having the Chinese and Russian government take over control of the Catholic Church, in their countries, is the plan. If it is, then their plan is working very successfully in China. Any 'Gay Lobby' plan for this to happen in the U.S., certainly went off the table when Hillary Clinton did not get elected.

For Pope Francis to bypass the Patriarch Bartholomew, who seems to want to normalize with the west, in favor of Patriarch Kirill, who seems to be a power hungry clone of Putin, would seem odd for a pope to do. On his visit, Pope Francis did not even bother to talk to Patriarch Bartholomew, or the Ukrainians, or say a prayer for the genocide millions of people who died in the Ukraine.

One would think that, if the goal was to have everyone in the world submit to Jesus' authority in the Successors of St. Peter, Pope Francis would be doing things far differently.

Now Patriarch Kirill is writing Pope Francis to help him shore up his, Russian authoritarian, control of power, in the Ukraine. Hey, we want the Ukraine to be free from tyranny and oppression, like the West. Pope Francis should tell Patriarch Kirill not to worry, we will build Catholic churches when he is kicked out of the Ukraine. A Pope is supposed to be building the Catholic Church on earth, not worrying about helping the competition in their zeal for religious power.

Report on Ukraine
But it’s hard to overstate the blow to Moscow. It would represent a huge loss of property and influence: Ukraine accounts for about a third of the more than 36,000 parishes under the Moscow Patriarchate. More important, it would further weaken the concept of the “Russian world,” a neo-imperialist ideology that both Putin and Moscow Patriarch Kirill have employed to enhance their authority and counter the West. For Kirill personally, it would be a big political loss.
Letter #69: Report on Ukraine - Inside The Vatican​

 

[StevenMerten]

MOSCOW, Russia - The Russian Orthodox church on Friday called on Pope Francis, the United Nations, the leaders of Germany and France, and other spiritual leaders to protect believers in Ukraine in the face of pressure on Moscow-affiliated clerics.
quoted from the article
​

Why has the Ukraine not joined NATO yet? France and Germany, whom the Russian Orthodox church have called for help, are already NATO members. NATO, of course, will also protect the Ukrainians from any hostilities from Putin.

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, who also boarder Russia, have joined NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union. Poland has joined. I think it would be very, very wise for the Ukraine to join NATO as well. I think doing so will lighten the tension on the Ukrainians, and NATO will protect the Russian Orthodox clergy as well.

What do you think?

In the order of joining NATO:

1949 – Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, United Kingdom, United States.
1952 – Greece, Turkey
1955 – Germany
1982 – Spain
1999 – Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland
2004 – Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia
2009 – Albania, Croatia
2017 – Montenegro

NATO Principles

Solidarity – The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is (NATO) is an alliance of 29 countries from North America and Europe committed to fulfilling the goals of North Atlantic Treaty signed on 4 April 1949.

Freedom – In accordance with the Treaty, the fundamental role of NATO is to safeguard the freedom and security of its member countries by political and military means.

Security – NATO safeguards the Allies’ common values of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law, and the peaceful resolution of disputes and promotes these values throughout the Euro-Atlantic area.

Transatlantic link – The Alliance embodies the transatlantic link by which the security of North America and Europe are permanently tied together. It is the practical expression of effective collective effort among its members in support of their common interests.

EATA - Eesti NATO Ühing
​

 

[StevenMerten]

It looks to me that the Catholic Church is more than welcome to open its arms to converts in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland, without asking for President Putin or Patriarch Kirill's self imposed authoritarian demands, restricting religious freedom, on the issue. I think Pope Francis should have visited Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and done some actual Shepherding.

Enhance Forward Presence (EFP)

NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence at the Eastern Flank of the Alliance

Complementing the Readiness Action Plan NATO members agreed at the Wales Summit in 2014 upon in response to Russia’s aggression in Eastern Ukraine, NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence (EFP) presents a tailored military strategy primarily aimed to protect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) and Poland at the Eastern Flank of the Alliance. With the NATO members’ unanimous decision to launch the EFP at the Warsaw Summit in 2016, the 28 members states reaffirmed their commitment to Art. 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty ‘’that an armed attack against one or more of {the NATO allies} in Europe {…} shall be considered an attack against them all’’. Considered to be the biggest reinforcement package in Europe after the end of the Cold War, the EFP reassures the Eastern European members that directly share a border with Russia, that collective defense remain a cornerstone of the Alliance.
EATA - Eesti NATO Ühing​

 

[tz620q]

It looks to me that the Catholic Church is more than welcome to open its arms to converts in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland, without asking for President Putin or Patriarch Kirill's self imposed authoritarian demands, restricting religious freedom, on the issue. I think Pope Francis should have visited Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and done some actual Shepherding.

Enhance Forward Presence (EFP)

NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence at the Eastern Flank of the Alliance

Complementing the Readiness Action Plan NATO members agreed at the Wales Summit in 2014 upon in response to Russia’s aggression in Eastern Ukraine, NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence (EFP) presents a tailored military strategy primarily aimed to protect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) and Poland at the Eastern Flank of the Alliance. With the NATO members’ unanimous decision to launch the EFP at the Warsaw Summit in 2016, the 28 members states reaffirmed their commitment to Art. 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty ‘’that an armed attack against one or more of {the NATO allies} in Europe {…} shall be considered an attack against them all’’. Considered to be the biggest reinforcement package in Europe after the end of the Cold War, the EFP reassures the Eastern European members that directly share a border with Russia, that collective defense remain a cornerstone of the Alliance.
EATA - Eesti NATO Ühing​

I am reminded of Jesus' parable about the 100 sheep. When one was lost, the shepherd left the 99, hopefully already bedded down in the sheep pen with other shepherds to watch them. The shepherd then looked for the lost sheep. Looking at the number of Catholic Priests and churches lost to Russian hegemony in the last 100 years, maybe Pope Francis was trying to find the lost sheep of Russia.

 

[StevenMerten]

I am reminded of Jesus' parable about the 100 sheep. When one was lost, the shepherd left the 99, hopefully already bedded down in the sheep pen with other shepherds to watch them. The shepherd then looked for the lost sheep. Looking at the number of Catholic Priests and churches lost to Russian hegemony in the last 100 years, maybe Pope Francis was trying to find the lost sheep of Russia.

Hello tz,
If what you suggest, is what Pope Francis was doing, then he was truly doing the will of our Lord.

Second Secret of Fatima
​

We then looked up at Our Lady, who said to us so kindly and so sadly:

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”

The Message of Fatima​

 

[StevenMerten]

I am reminded of Jesus' parable about the 100 sheep. When one was lost, the shepherd left the 99, hopefully already bedded down in the sheep pen with other shepherds to watch them. The shepherd then looked for the lost sheep. Looking at the number of Catholic Priests and churches lost to Russian hegemony in the last 100 years, maybe Pope Francis was trying to find the lost sheep of Russia.

Hello tz,
With the Russian invasion of the Ukraine, and NATO's response of, Enhance Forward Presence (EFP), this puts the world back to Cold War status of the 50's, 60's and 70's. Pope Francis traveling to Russia to meet with Patriarch Kirill, to discuss the Second Secret of Fatima, on what it is going to take to gain the Blessed Mother's Promise of world peace, would take a tremendous (miraculous) amount of Christian humility.

The thought of Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill, stepping into President Putin's war room, to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, for his conversion, well that is beyond comprehension. Yes, St. Paul knew the big red dragon of the Roman empire was going to martyr him when he marched into Rome, unarmed, to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, three hundred years of Christians, went to their martyrdom preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in Rome, before the conversion of Constantine. However, call me a pessimist, I do not think Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill have it in them.

I think Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill, after looking at their options, have chosen the option of telling the flock to prepare for WWIII. That is, if, in fact, Pope Francis' objective was to go to Russia to seek out lost sheep, or try to avert WWIII.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Hello tz,
With the Russian invasion of the Ukraine, and NATO's response of, Enhance Forward Presence (EFP), this puts the world back to Cold War status of the 50's, 60's and 70's. Pope Francis traveling to Russia to meet with Patriarch Kirill, to discuss the Second Secret of Fatima, on what it is going to take to gain the Blessed Mother's Promise of world peace, would take a tremendous (miraculous) amount of Christian humility.

The thought of Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill, stepping into President Putin's war room, to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, for his conversion, well that is beyond comprehension. Yes, St. Paul knew the big red dragon of the Roman empire was going to martyr him when he marched into Rome, unarmed, to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, three hundred years of Christians, went to their martyrdom preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in Rome, before the conversion of Constantine. However, call me a pessimist, I do not think Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill have it in them.

I think Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill, after looking at their options, have chosen the option of telling the flock to prepare for WWIII. That is, if, in fact, Pope Francis' objective was to go to Russia to seek out lost sheep, or try to avert WWIII.

Pope John Paul II wanted to go to Russia but the Russian Orthodox patriarch refused. Pope Benedict wanted to go to Russia but the Russian Orthodox patriarch refused. Pope Francis has yet to get a yes to his request.

 

[StevenMerten]

Pope John Paul II wanted to go to Russia but the Russian Orthodox patriarch refused. Pope Benedict wanted to go to Russia but the Russian Orthodox patriarch refused. Pope Francis has yet to get a yes to his request.

Hello Chevy,
I thought Pope Francis went over there, 'first time in a thousand years'? I thought the Ukrainians were very upset that he did not bring up their cause, or talk about, their loss of 3 to 10 million lives through Russian inflicted genocide. I thought Patriarch Bartholomew was upset that he was snubbed out. Was this all simply in written communications?

Does anyone have links of past CF articles on this?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Hello Chevy,
I thought Pope Francis went over there, 'first time in a thousand years'? I thought the Ukrainians were very upset that he did not bring up their cause, or talk about, their loss of 3 to 10 million lives through Russian inflicted genocide. I thought Patriarch Bartholomew was upset that he was snubbed out. Was this all simply in written communications?

Does anyone have links of past CF articles on this?

I think I recall a meeting that they put together rather impromptu when both of them were in Cuba. A short thing, not close to being comprehensive. The goal, of course , is reunification in some form between the Catholic Church and all of the Orthodox Churches. A big step in that direction is the pope being invited to Moscow. Which hasn't happened. Not yet.

 

[StevenMerten]

I think I recall a meeting that they put together rather impromptu when both of them were in Cuba. A short thing, not close to being comprehensive. The goal, of course , is reunification in some form between the Catholic Church and all of the Orthodox Churches. A big step in that direction is the pope being invited to Moscow. Which hasn't happened. Not yet.

Hello Chevy,
Do you remember which article it was where the Ukrainians were upset that Pope Francis did not mention their cause of the Russian inflicted genocide?

With things ramping up toward a NATO vs Russia confrontation, don't you think that most important of all things should be for Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill to get together and discuss the Second Secret of Fatima prophesy, on what has to be accomplished in Russia, by a Pope, to have peace, rather than destruction, on earth? I would think that our present situation would dictate that this be moved to top priority.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Hello Chevy,
Do you remember which article it was where the Ukrainians were upset that Pope Francis did not mention their cause of the Russian inflicted genocide?

I don't remember.

With things ramping up toward a NATO vs Russia confrontation, don't you think that most important of all things should be for Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill to get together and discuss the Second Secret of Fatima prophesy, on what has to be accomplished in Russia, by a Pope, to have peace, rather than destruction, on earth? I would think that our present situation would dictate that this be moved to top priority.

I don't think Francis and Kirill have it in them to find that much common ground. I would love to be wrong. Not sure Kirill want's it. But then again, Kirill asked the pope for assistance, so maybe someone has changed.

How bad can Ukraine get? The Russians under Putin have already annexed Crimea and invaded another part of the country, and they are pushing hard to get their way. And the Russian Orthodox under patriarch Kirill have created a schism over Ukraine. Are these moves related? Is there a path out that does not involve fallout shelters?

 

[StevenMerten]

I don't remember.
I don't think Francis and Kirill have it in them to find that much common ground. I would love to be wrong. Not sure Kirill want's it. But then again, Kirill asked the pope for assistance, so maybe someone has changed.

How bad can Ukraine get? The Russians under Putin have already annexed Crimea and invaded another part of the country, and they are pushing hard to get their way. And the Russian Orthodox under patriarch Kirill have created a schism over Ukraine. Are these moves related? Is there a path out that does not involve fallout shelters?

Hello Chevy,
I think Kirill is simply trying to manipulate the world into thinking his clerics in the Ukraine are the victims, not the Ukrainians who are being assaulted by Russia.

Funny you should ask if there is another way, other than fall out shelters. I think we have already failed to properly fulfill the Blessed Mother's Request on the conversion of Russia. Where we are heading from here, you definitely want to be wearing your Divine Mercy Feast Day, white robe washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

www.DivineMercy.com

 

[chevyontheriver]

Hello Chevy,
I think Kirill is simply trying to manipulate the world into thinking his clerics in the Ukraine are the victims, not the Ukrainians who are being assaulted by Russia.

Ukrainian Catholic leader welcomes head of new independent Orthodox church | Catholic Herald

 

[Basil the Great]

MOSCOW, Russia - The Russian Orthodox church on Friday called on Pope Francis, the United Nations, the leaders of Germany and France, and other spiritual leaders to protect believers in Ukraine in the face of pressure on Moscow-affiliated clerics.
quoted from the article
​

Why has the Ukraine not joined NATO yet? France and Germany, whom the Russian Orthodox church have called for help, are already NATO members. NATO, of course, will also protect the Ukrainians from any hostilities from Putin.

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, who also boarder Russia, have joined NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union. Poland has joined. I think it would be very, very wise for the Ukraine to join NATO as well. I think doing so will lighten the tension on the Ukrainians, and NATO will protect the Russian Orthodox clergy as well.

What do you think?

In the order of joining NATO:

1949 – Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, United Kingdom, United States.
1952 – Greece, Turkey
1955 – Germany
1982 – Spain
1999 – Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland
2004 – Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia
2009 – Albania, Croatia
2017 – Montenegro

NATO Principles

Solidarity – The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is (NATO) is an alliance of 29 countries from North America and Europe committed to fulfilling the goals of North Atlantic Treaty signed on 4 April 1949.

Freedom – In accordance with the Treaty, the fundamental role of NATO is to safeguard the freedom and security of its member countries by political and military means.

Security – NATO safeguards the Allies’ common values of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law, and the peaceful resolution of disputes and promotes these values throughout the Euro-Atlantic area.

Transatlantic link – The Alliance embodies the transatlantic link by which the security of North America and Europe are permanently tied together. It is the practical expression of effective collective effort among its members in support of their common interests.

EATA - Eesti NATO Ühing
​

Ukraine has not joined NATO yet because apparently they have not received an invitation and NATO no doubt fears that sending them an invite could bring us to the brink of war.

 

[StevenMerten]

Ukraine has not joined NATO yet because apparently they have not received an invitation and NATO no doubt fears that sending them an invite could bring us to the brink of war.

Hello Basil,
My Ukrainian friend just got back to me on this issue. Seems that the devil seduced them into thinking he, Putin, was their friend, so they did not join. Now, they of course want to join. However, NATO does not accept nations that are presently at war. Putin does not want the Ukraine to join NATO, of course! Because Putin wants to inflict his unjust evil upon them, as usual.

I just cried when my friend told me this. We must all pray for our brothers and sisters, the Ukrainians.

 

[Davidnic]

MOD HAT

Given the turn the thread his taken I've moved it to the One Bread One Body General Politics Area.


MOD HAT

 

[StevenMerten]

Sister Lucia had already given an indication for interpreting the third part of the “secret” in a letter to the Holy Father, dated 12 May 1982:

“The third part of the secret refers to Our Lady's words: ‘If not [Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated' (13-VII-1917).

The third part of the secret is a symbolic revelation, referring to this part of the Message, conditioned by whether we accept or not what the Message itself asks of us: ‘If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, etc.'.

Since we did not heed this appeal of the Message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfilment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going towards it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc.

And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”.(5)

Quoted from the Vatican: The Message of Fatima​

 

[bekalc]

Ukraine joining NATO will only lead to war. It is NATO expansion that has lead to Russia becoming so hostile toward the West and threats of Ukraine becoming part that lead to then taking Crimea.

Russia is a nation that has no natural borders so their defense has been to control the nations around them. Their experience has also been that if they don’t control those nations that others will use those nations to attack them. They faced multiple invasions where this was the case. When they agreed to leave they were told NATO would not expand and they the feel USA broke their word.
The Russians were thrilled to give up their empire Russia for the Russians in someways but not their worst fears are coming to pass US bases on their borders.


A hostile Russia isn’t good for anyone. And it brings them closer to China.

It is not the case that Russia killed a bunch of Ukrainians in Crimea during World War II. I am not saying a geniocide didn’t happen. But Crimea was not part of the Ukraine and had never been a part of a Ukraine. After World War II a The Kruschev gave Ukraine Crimea but they were one country at that time. Unilaterally.
The area is majority Russian and the people may really truly rather be a part of Russia. Especially if Ukraine wants to be in NATO.

Also my understanding from Orthodox is who are not Russian or Ukrainian. Technically the Patriarch of Constantinople exceed his authority by granting the Ukrainians a national Church. Ukraine hundreds and hundreds of years ago maybe 1000 was placed under the authority of the Moscow Patriarchate. And the charter was forever.

It may be ridiculous and it may be unfair but the Patriarch actually did exceed his authority.

None of this is to say Putin is wonderful but the West here isn’t innocent. The West encouraged the overthrow of a democratically elected government. The country of Ukraine is deeply divided with those with sentiments toward Russian and Russian heritage and those not. The situation is complicated and part of the complication is arbitrary created borders.

Sitting here saying let’s expand NATO is deeply not understanding the problem. Standing alliances and other countries feeling threatened is what can and has lead to wars.

 

[bekalc]

I want to say I do understand why the Nations around then want to be a part of NATO. But those nations have Russia forever as their neighbor. So the last thing they need is a hostile Russia or a Russia that thinks their independence destroys their security.

 

[StevenMerten]

Ukraine joining NATO will only lead to war. It is NATO expansion that has lead to Russia becoming so hostile toward the West and threats of Ukraine becoming part that lead to then taking Crimea.

Russia is a nation that has no natural borders so their defense has been to control the nations around them. Their experience has also been that if they don’t control those nations that others will use those nations to attack them. They faced multiple invasions where this was the case. When they agreed to leave they were told NATO would not expand and they the feel USA broke their word.
The Russians were thrilled to give up their empire Russia for the Russians in someways but not their worst fears are coming to pass US bases on their borders.


A hostile Russia isn’t good for anyone. And it brings them closer to China.

It is not the case that Russia killed a bunch of Ukrainians in Crimea during World War II. I am not saying a geniocide didn’t happen. But Crimea was not part of the Ukraine and had never been a part of a Ukraine. After World War II a The Kruschev gave Ukraine Crimea but they were one country at that time. Unilaterally.
The area is majority Russian and the people may really truly rather be a part of Russia. Especially if Ukraine wants to be in NATO.

Also my understanding from Orthodox is who are not Russian or Ukrainian. Technically the Patriarch of Constantinople exceed his authority by granting the Ukrainians a national Church. Ukraine hundreds and hundreds of years ago maybe 1000 was placed under the authority of the Moscow Patriarchate. And the charter was forever.

It may be ridiculous and it may be unfair but the Patriarch actually did exceed his authority.

None of this is to say Putin is wonderful but the West here isn’t innocent. The West encouraged the overthrow of a democratically elected government. The country of Ukraine is deeply divided with those with sentiments toward Russian and Russian heritage and those not. The situation is complicated and part of the complication is arbitrary created borders.

Sitting here saying let’s expand NATO is deeply not understanding the problem. Standing alliances and other countries feeling threatened is what can and has lead to wars.

Hello Bekalc,
My friend is Ukrainian, he says you are wrong. In the 1930's Russia put up a barricade and caused a starvation holocaust 3 to ten million Ukrainians in Crimea. Then Russians moved into the city, removed the dead, and now, yes most people who live there are Russians.

My Ukrainian friend says that Putin has said, 'There is no Russia without Putin and there is no Putin without Russia', meaning Putin will just nuke everything, Russia itself, the world, everything, if someone were to try to remove him from power. Similar to Hitler who ordered his troops to slaughter even the German people at the end of WWII.

Yes, people on Russia's boarders want freedom, from the tyranny of Putin just coming in and slaughtering everyone. They are joining NATO to live, and to live free, not to spite Putin, but to protect themselves from being slaughtered.

Yes, we would like to live in a world where if you just give dictators like Adolph Hitler everything they want, there will be peace. That did not work in pre-WWII and it still does not work today. We lived through the MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) decades of the 50's and 60's, rather than surrender the world for destruction to a tyrant dictator. We are not going to just hand over the world to tyranny now. Yes, the whole free world knows that there is a cost for standing for freedom; It means standing against tyrants, with your lives. Yes, the free world and its army NATO, know, and are prepared to fight, even WWIII, if Putin decides it is time for him to destroy the world in his conquest for power. Just so that you Russians know.