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Russia To Build Multi-million Dollar Patriarchal Mansion

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by MariaJLM, May 22, 2019.

  1. Orthodoxjay1

    Orthodoxjay1 Well-Known Member

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    Maria please cool your jets, yes the optics is bad, I'm not too found of it eother, and yes I don't like the perception. Not everything is perfect with our patriarchs, they are fallen like the rest of us.

    With that said, this is just updates and renovations, plus it for welcoming guests, and heads of states, and is owned by the Russian state, this isn't Patriarch Kirill private property. In Orthodox lands, the Patriarch is like a unofficial head of state or near the top.

    I'm beginning to think your political issues with your parish is now clouding your view of Orthodoxy as a whole, and it heirarchs who are task with leading the flock to salvation. It would be healthy to pray , and seek guidance of a spiritual father , because no offense your starting to sound bitter with the faith.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  2. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    Just as a side question, what are administrative roles that bishops and patriarchs and their staff fill? The Boston archdiocese HQ is just down the street from Holy Cross and serves as a conference center much like a regular business HQ.
     
  3. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    administratively, I'd say they fulfill an advisory role for secular leaders. that'd be my guess.
     
  4. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    I just don't know what's bothering people so much about this.....Here is a quick snapshot of my house where I live that I snapped from a helicopter the other day. It's quaint, but we call it home.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. LessThanPerfect2016

    LessThanPerfect2016 Catechumen Supporter

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    Did Patriarchs and/or Bishops ever reside in monasteries in the past?

    My question ties in to the topic as I'm curious as to how this would've been handled in/around Constantinople prior to the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire. Would the Emperors/Empresses have given the Patriarch of Constantinople a similarly large building?

    I know Russia does consider itself the third Rome.
     
  6. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    much nicer than Duncan Idaho's place.
     
  7. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Is there a town in Idaho called Duncan? :p
     
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  8. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    Duncan Idaho is my eBay screen name! ^_^

     
  9. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    man, if you're the same Duncan I saw, you gotta spruce up that summer home.
     
  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    This is such an interesting topic to me, as it seems like the 'question behind the question' is something like "What is or isn't appropriate for Patriarchal Residences?", or maybe even "Why have Patriarchal Residences when they 'look bad' and that money could be used to feed the poor?"

    I obviously can't answer these, as this is on TAW and not in the St. Justin's subforum, but reading this thread moved me to read the article on Patriarchal Residences in the Coptic Encyclopedia, which states that the Patriarchal Residence of the Coptic Pope has moved seven times since the time of our evangelist and master St. Mark (I thought it would've been way more often than that, what with all the turmoil in Egypt and the antiquity of the faith in the country), and the current residence at the new St. Mark's Cathedral in El Abbasiya in Cairo (consecrated 1968) is built upon the former site of Deir El Khandaq ("Monastery of the Moat", est. circa 970, called that because it had a moat around it dug on the orders of General Gawahar El Siqili, the founder of Cairo, for strategic military purposes in his fight against the Qarmatians, a rival Islamic sect to his own). Long before this there was a tradition (attested to in EO sources like the Chalcedonian Patriarch of Egypt Eutychius, 877-940) for centuries that Coptic Popes would reside at the monastery of St. Macarius the Egyptian (Deir Anba Maqar), est. 360. It's not known when this tradition started (which eventually required the Pope to be enthroned not only at Alexandria or Cairo, but also at the monastery of St. Macarius), but it didn't end until 965, when the seat was moved for a decade to a tiny village known as Mahallat Danyal (Site of Daniel), which doesn't exist anymore but was in the area of what is now the district of Kafr El Sheikh, about 85 miles north of Cairo, in the Nile delta.

    My point in all this is not to spew Coptic stuff all over the EO board, but to show that it seems that Patriarchal residences of some kind have existed for as long as there have been Patriarchs (I'm assuming that of our holy father the apostle St. Mark was probably for a time the house of his successor and first convert St. Inanios, as the apostle had been welcomed in by and converted his family), have survived the major schisms, and have actually sometimes probably been as humble as the OP and apparently others think they should be. I can't imagine that living for a decade in some village essentially in the middle of nowhere outside of Cairo instead of actually in Cairo (which was a possibility by that time), or in Alexandria (where it was already established) or in Deir El Maqar (ditto), would've been all that luxurious or fun.

    But there have always been Patriarchal residences. I suppose the only difference here is the price tag and the accompanying sense of unease, but as others have pointed out, it is part of the Russian government's restoration of the site as a historic building. Should your Patriarch not be allowed to host foreign visitors and dignitaries in such a building? Why not, if there is cooperation with the authorities in this? What law does it break, either by Church canon or secularly? Are there EO canons that say that what is being done here is not allowed? (Serious question; I'm asking because I don't know.)

    It'd be one thing if HH Kirill had ordered it himself, like "I want this multi-million dollar mansion for myself, because I'm the Patriarch, so I deserve it, blahblahblah", but that's not what's going on. So even in a mansion, one may be humble. Humility comes from inner control of the passions guided by the Holy Spirit through submission before God, am I right? And I don't see how anyone could possibly see into HH's inner parts to know where he is in his own struggles and prayers. Certainly that's not knowable by looking a at a building. I feel confident saying even without being EO (purely because I know actual EO in real life, so I know the examples they set; not meaning to 'teach' here) that this is not what the EO faith is about. If HH had a different, more modest building in which to welcome guests and such, it'd be the same faith. If he converted it to low-income housing or whatever the "Churches have too much wealth" crowd want, it'd be the same faith, etc.

    Am I wrong here? There's nothing wrong with Patriarchal residences, they are extremely historically sound (i.e., not an innovation -- for those who worry about innovation creeping into your Church), and if this is another one of them, then who can say it shouldn't be?
     
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  11. Markie Boy

    Markie Boy Looking East, Moving Slow Supporter

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    As a struggling Catholic looking East I can say this is pretty small compared to what we have.

    Also, look at the homes and extravagance many mega church protestant pastors have.

    I'm sort of a spiritual mess right now so I won't go too deep. But I see this issue everywhere in Christianity. I know this - I have some of the most respect for the simple, unknows I have met - those working hard in the Pro-Life movement, helping at the food pantry, etc.. Often they don't know much about theology - but I'm more impressed with them than most bishops today.
     
  12. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    this is kinda related, but if you ever see St Innocent of Moscow's house in Alaska, most of the residence is grand and beautiful and pricey, because most of the building is for the public and his guests. his actual living area was very simple and humble. so it could (not saying it is) be something like that too.
     
  13. Trying_to_be_Orthodox

    Trying_to_be_Orthodox Newbie

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    FacePalm. Patriach is it, is that and etc....where r nice fables about alcohol trading in 90-s and etc... i dont say he is Saint...but just my advice - dont pay attention on stuff like this. Esp in comparison with Vatican and their assets.
     
  14. Markie Boy

    Markie Boy Looking East, Moving Slow Supporter

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    Agreed - the Vatican is disproportionate to this. Way beyond what's needed, and I'm not so sure it's all about glorifying God.

    I think He would have liked it more had they spent all that cash on evangelizing, teaching, training good pastors, etc.
     
  15. StanU

    StanU Member

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    He has three official residencies, as well as an apartment in an elite condo tower in Moscow (gift from the former Mayor). The latter is famous on account of how a lawsuit on Kirill's behalf over some renovations his neighbour did awarded Kirill hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages due to "nanodust" damaging some books and furniture. Said neighbour happened to be former Minister of Health, prominent neurosurgeon, and an ordained Orthodox priest to boot (name's Yuri Shevchenko). Oh, and also terminally ill with cancer. This sounds like something Kirill's enemies would make up, except it wasn't.
     
  16. StanU

    StanU Member

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    It IS an arm of Russian government in all but name. Patriarch even has the use of one of the Presidential planes and bodyguards from the State Security Service (sluzhba ohrany).
     
  17. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Would it be better if he didn't do that? Wouldn't the criticism then be "He/the Church/the Government/(whomever) spends X Rubles on private planes and private security"? Is there even better security or more secure travel to be had in Russia in the first place? Should he not get something that is at a level which corresponds to his ecclesiastical role in the ROC hierarchy, or does he have to fly 'coach' and fight off any potential physical threats himself to prove...something?
     
  18. StanU

    StanU Member

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    LOL... no, this is completely appropriate. For a high-ranking official heading a large department of Russian government, or a major branch of it's intelligence services. Because truly, that's what Kirill actually is. And seeing how that government works more like a crime syndicate... make your own inferences.
     
  19. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I'd rather not. I'm just trying to get at what your alternative is. What should be happening instead? How should things be arranged?
     
  20. StanU

    StanU Member

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    How do other Churches manage to exist without being bought and paid for by a corrupt state? They survive. And most of them have no "nanodust" scandals (google it, it's quite a story). And no need to Photoshop a gold Rolex out of the Primate's official photos (another amusing story).
     
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