Rule Of Law Ends In Boston Archdiocese

Evangelion

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S0uljah -

Actually, you were the one bringing up a conspiracy of Catholics to revise history.

There's no "conspiracy" here. It's quite obvious to any student of history. I can't help it if you only ever believe what your Church tells you, and never take the time to check the facts.

And its not my fault you brought in your credentials into the conversation. If they happen to get trashed as a side-effect, that is your fault, not mine.

Your only problem is that you haven't "trashed" them - you've simply made a stupid claim.

I now challenge you to prove your claim. :cool:
 
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You have a bad habit of wanting your opponent to say something, and then claiming they said it, when they said no such thing.

Present these people with the facts, and the scream "CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!"

Again, you were the one screaming conspiracy, not me.

If I had said "He was not religous", I would have been told "Well, how can you trust anything he says about the Church?"

If I had said "He was Catholic", I would have been told "He can't be a practicing Catholic!"

I have said he was a Lutheran - and now I get "He's biased!" (And yet... no proof for this claim is forthcoming.)

Again, you are assuming my responses, and tailoring your responses to what you have in your head, not what I present.

Would any rational Catholic like to respond for a change?

And you call me irrational and stupid?
 
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Wolseley

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The practice of revisionism is used by quite a few modern historians these days, on both sides of the wire. :)

I have encountered just about every school of historical thought you can imagine, from Old History to New History to "New-Old" History, alternative, revisionist, reactionary, Marxist, pacifist, Afrocentric, reconstructionist, fascist, anarchist, and politically correct.

The best standard tool is still to review the primary source documents and see what the people then had to say for themselves, and contrast and compare that with what the historians say about those people.

Rather often, they don't match up. ;)

There is little that I can do here; my poor education and native ignorance has no hope of holding up in the face of such overwhelming knowledge and vastly superior evidence. I can recognize when, due to my unfortunate genetic propensity to profound stupidy, I am in way over my head in the presence of greater intellect. I therefore concede defeat and declare those with views in opposition to my own to be utterly correct in every particular.



...but I'se smart enuff to no a wase a time when I sees it.....:D
 
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Your only problem is that you haven't "trashed" them - you've simply made a stupid claim.

Well, I'm glad I only have one problem, heh.

One of your problems is that you apparently spent a lot of money learning a fantasy, and now you can't possibly listen to the truth, else you will realize what a waste your education must have been, huh?
 
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Evangelion

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S0uljah -

One of your problems is that you apparently spent a lot of money learning a fantasy

*snip*

Please prove that I have "learned a fantasy." You can start by telling me exactly what I learned at university in 1999.

Come on, let's have it. I want you to give me a detailed list of everything that I learned in 1999, from Semester 1 to the end of Semester 2.

Then, having told me what I learned, you can prove that it's a "fantasy." :cool:
 
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Evangelion

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S0uljah -


Evasion already? Wow, that was just too easy! :D

I think I would rather quote from Jesus Christ, thanks.

Even better!

Please provide a comprehensive list of quotes from Jesus Christ, with particular reference to Jesus' regular use of the words "Pope", "cardinal", "Holy See", and "hierarchy."

We can take it from there. :p
 
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Originally posted by Evangelion
S0uljah -



*snip*

Please prove that I have "learned a fantasy." You can start by telling me exactly what I learned at university in 1999.

Come on, let's have it. I want you to give me a detailed list of everything that I learned in 1999, from Semester 1 to the end of Semester 2.

Then, having told me what I learned, you can prove that it's a "fantasy." :cool:

You presented some bogus information, and then tried to make yourself look like the authority, by throwing around your academic credentials. You made your own education look suspect, so don't get all huffy when you get called on it.

If you had a case, you would present the facts, not some references to your wonderous degree.
 
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Evangelion

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S0uljah -

You presented some bogus information

False. The information stands unrefuted.

and then tried to make yourself look like the authority, by throwing around your academic credentials.

False. I challenged your claim that I didn't know what I was talking about.

You made your own education look suspect, so don't get all huffy when you get called on it.

You claimed that my education was a "fantasy." I am asking you to prove your claim.

If you had a case, you would present the facts, not some references to your wonderous degree.

We'll get there in time.

But first, I want to be sure that you're not going to ignore my sources. So, again - will you accept J. N. D. Kelly as a legitimate source, or will you claim that he is a "revisionist"?
 
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Evangelion

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isshinwhat -

The quotes I provided, each from before the Edict of Milan, give proof that the Roman Church, under her bishop, had "pre- eminent authority" and was "by his [Christ's] own authority the source and hallmark" of the Church's unity.

I would have to dig around in my history notes in order to present a comprehensive rebuttal to these quotes of yours - but I do have a few snippets on hand which might help to clarify the period of history in question. ;)

This Church "that he entrusts the sheep to feed" was built upon "the Chair of Peter" from Pentecost onward, according to these passages.

I see no reference here to the Papacy, nor to the primacy of the Church of Rome.

Your actual quote was:

" '...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?"
Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae(Primacy text),4(A.D. 251),in NE,228-229

No mention of the Papacy; no mention of Petrine primacy; no mention of Rome's primacy. All you have here is a a 3rd Century tradition, and nothing to back it up.

You also quoted:

"Philip, presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See, said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: Our holy and most blessed Pope Celestine the bishop is according to due order his successor and holds his place....

Council of Ephesus,Session III (A.D. 431),in GILES,252

But this does not prove your claim of Roman and/or Papal primacy, for Joseph F. Kelly writes:

  • The word "pope" was not used exclusively of the bishop of Rome until the ninth century, and it is likely that in the earliest Roman community a college of presbyters rather than a single bishop provided the leadership.
    Kelly, Joseph F. (1992), The Concise Dictionary of Early Christianity.
So the reference to "Pope Celestine" proves nothing, since this title was not exclusive to the bishop of Rome. In fact, Kelly vindicates my earlier claim that your Catholic Church did not exist before the 9th Century AD, by noting that the title of "Pope" only became exclusive at this time, and at no time previous!

J. N. D. Kelly lends further weight to my argument:

  • In the late 2nd or early 3rd cent. the tradition identified Peter as the first bishop of Rome. This was a natural development once the monarchical episcopate, i.e., government of the local church by a single bishop as distinct from a group of presbyter-bishops, finally emerged in Rome in the mid-2nd cent.
    Kelly, J. N. D. (1986), The Oxford Dictionary of Popes.
So it was a tradition, which emerged in the late 2nd or early 3rd Century. And this tradition was itself a development which sprang from the change in ecclesiastical order, from a group of presbyter-bishops, to a single bishop.

We now move on to your next quote:

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416

Still no mention of the Pope; still no mention of Petrine primacy (in fact, Irenaeus tells us that Peter and Paul are the ones who founded and organised the church at Rome!), and only a passing reference to the church in Rome, without any proof that this church ruled over the others.

Thus, in the words of a Catholic historian:

  • The context of Irenaeus' argument does not claim that the Roman Church is literally unique, the only one of its class; rather, he argues that the Roman Church is the outstanding example of its class, the class in question being apostolic sees. While he chose to speak primarily of Rome for brevity's sake, in fact, before finishing, he also referred to Ephesus and Smyrna.
    Eno, Robert (1990), The Rise of the Papacy.
Another Catholic scholar concedes:

  • It is indeed understandable how this passage has baffled scholars for centuries! Those who were wont to find in it a verification of the Roman primacy were able to interpret it in that fashion. However, there is so much ambiguity here that one has to be careful of over-reading the evidence....

    Karl Baus' interpretation
    [that Irenaeus was not referring to a papacy] seems to be the one that is more faithful to the text and does not presume to read into it a meaning which might not be there. Hence, it neither overstates nor understates Irenaeus' position. For him [Irenaeus], it is those churches of apostolic foundation that have the greater claim to authentic teaching and doctrine. Among those, Rome, with its two apostolic founders, certainly holds an important place. However, all of the apostolic churches enjoy what he terms "preeminent authority" in doctrinal matters.
    La Due, William (1999), The Chair of Saint Peter.
Finally, Philip Schaff, writing in his monumental History of the Christian Church:

  • The oldest links in the chain of Roman bishops are veiled in impenetrable darkness. Tertullian and most of the Latins (and the pseudo-Clementina), make Clement (Phil. 4:3), the first successor of Peter; but Irenaeus, Eusebius, and other Greeks, also Jerome and the Roman Catalogue, give him the third place, and put Linus (2 Tim. 4:21), and Anacletus (or Anincletus), between him and Peter.

    In some lists Cletus is substituted for Anacletus, in others the two are distinguished. Perhaps Linus and Anacletus acted during the life time of Paul and Peter as assistants or presided only over one part of the church, while Clement may have had charge of another branch; for at that early day, the government of the congregation composed of Jewish and Gentile Christian elements was not so centralized as it afterwards became. Furthermore, the earliest fathers, with a true sense of the distinction between the apostolic and episcopal offices, do not reckon Peter among the bishops of Rome at all; and the Roman Catalogue in placing Peter in the line of bishops, is strangely regardless of Paul, whose independent labors in Rome are attested not only by tradition, but by the clear witness of his own epistles and the book of Acts.

    Lipsius, after a laborious critical comparison of the different catalogues of popes, arrives at the conclusion that Linus, Anacletus, and Clement were Roman presbyters (or presbyter-bishops in the N. T. sense of the term), at the close of the first century, Evaristus and Alexander presbyters at the beginning of the second, Xystus I. (Latinized: Sixtus), presbyter for ten years till about 128, Telesphorus for eleven years, till about 139, and next successors diocesan bishops.
This looks pretty clear to me. :)

Therefore, if it was believed that the Roman Church under her Bishop had "pre- eminent authority" and he was entrusted to feed Christ's sheep by his ministry as Peter's successor from at least 180 A.D., then your source's claim that "prior to Toleration in AD 313, there had been no suggestion that the Bishop of Rome exercised any significant influence, much less authority, outside his own domain," and all subsuquent claims which rest upon it, are false.

If all of this was true, then yes, I might have something to worry about.

Fortunately, it's not. :cool:
 
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Evangelion

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In conclusion, I would like to repeat my citation from Guthrie - this time extending it, in order to present a broader context:

  • On the point – the role of the Papacy in the conversion of Europe – we need some background for, in the early Church prior to Toleration in AD 313, there had been no suggestion that the Bishop of Rome exercised any significant influence, much less authority, outside his own domain. However, when Constantine’s Edict of Toleration (AD 313) granted freedom of belief and worship to Christians, a completely new situation developed which necessitated a radical change in Church policy. For, from that time on, the emperors were Christians; and increasingly, they tended to rule the Church as a kind of Department of State, as if they – rather than thee bishops – were the successors of St Peter and the Apostles.

    So, when doctrinal disputes arose among Christians (for example the controversy over the divinity of Christ), it was the Emperor Constantine, not the Bishop of Rome, who called the first “Ecumenical” Council of Christian bishops (a kind of Christian Summit) at Nicaea in AD 325 – oikumene being the Greek word for the “household” of the Church. Among the two hundred bishops who attended, there were only two priests (not even a single bishop) from Rome or its environs, and they played only a minor part in the proceedings. The same when a later Emperor, Theodosius, called a second Christian Summit (the First Council of Constantinople) in AD 381 – without reference to Rome at all! In effect, the Emperor was now behaving as if he were the Head of the Church – an emperor, moreover, who (as we have seen) had been forced to do public penance by St Ambrose after slaughtering 7,000 innocent people after one of his officers had been assassinated.

    This was too much. The following year, Damasus, Bishop of Rome, called a rival Council in Rome; and his successor, Siricius, formulated the first public proclamation of the right and duty of the Bishop of Rome to rule over thee whole of Christendom: “We (the Successors of Peter) carry on our shoulders the burdens of all who are weighed down. Indeed, in Our person the blessed Apostle Peter himself carries these burdens – he who regards us as the heir to his administration… No priest of the Lord is free to ignore the decision of the Apostolic See.”

    Gradually, over the next century or so, as the tension increased between the Caesar or Emperor in the East and the Pope or Bishop of Rome in the West, “the Successors of Peter” became ever more adamant in their insistence that they, rather than the eastern emperors, should be the arbiters of all Church affairs. So, in the mid 5th Century, we find Pope Leo I (440-461) calling himself “the Vicar of Peter” – that is, the one who acts in the place of Peter. Not the “Vicar of Christ” – the modern title which gained ascendancy only from the 11th Century onwards – but “the Vicar of Peter” and “the heir to his administration.”

    By the end of the 5th Century, still under pressure from the Emperor in Constantinople, a further step was taken in this direction when Pope Gelasius (492-496) formulated the crucial concept of “separate Orders.” In the political or temporal order, he argued, the Emperor holds supreme and universal authority; but in the spiritual order – that is, in the administration of the Church – it is the Bishop of Rome who, as Vicar of St Peter, holds supreme and universal authority. The foundation of all future claims to the Papacy – and the basis of a good deal of the future politics of Church and State – is already inherent in this crucial distinction.

    In passing, it is worth nothing that, in a sense, it was only natural that the Church should begin to think in such universal terms. For the Roman Empire into which Christianity had been born was a world-wide empire; and the Romans themselves had a gift for government far surpassing that of the more intellectual but more factious and self-destructive Greeks, whose small, independent City-States had fought interminably among themselves all through Greek history.

    So, “not unnaturally", with Christianity spreading all through the Roman Empire, Christians began to think of the Church as a kind of spiritual Empire; and given the unique role of Peter, and the natural Roman gift for government, it was on the cards that the successors of Peter would eventually become the spiritual Emperors of the universal Church, which we call “Christendom” (literally, “the dominion of Christ.”)

    Especially, in the persistent climate of controversy that marked those early centuries – notably, the continuing Arian assertion that, while Christ was adopted as Son of God at his baptism, he was not born God, nor was he identical with the Creator. So when, in the midst of one such controversy (in 451), with the Church split into two rival factions, the gifted Pope Leo I spoke out authoritatively saying, “this is the doctrine of the Church” – his words having the authoritative tone of a Roman decree, backed by his claim to be the Successor of St Peter – the Bishop of Rome became increasingly regarded as the guardian of orthodoxy throughout much of Christendom.

    By this time – by force of circumstance, rather than choice or planning – the Bishop of Rome had also become a political ruler, not just head of the Church in Rome. For when the Emperor Constantine retired to Constantinople, leaving the city of Rome as a backwater, who else would now rule and defend the city, if not the Bishop of Rome? In the words of Professor Nilsson in his history of Imperial Rome; “as the Emperor (from the early 300’s) seldom visited Rome, the bishop had become the foremost man in the city.”

    When, for example, Attila and his Huns stormed into Italy in 451, who would o out to negotiate with him? Who would – and did – save the city of Rome from the kind of rape and plunder that befell so many other cities throughout the Empire? Who, if not the Bishop of Rome, the leading citizen in the city? And, in fact, it was this same Pope Leo who confronted Attila – thereby (as the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church points out) “increasing… Papal prestige… in the political sphere… by persuading the Huns to withdraw beyond the Danube (451), and securing concessions when the Vandals took Rome in 452.”

    This political role of the bishops of Rome would increase tenfold a few centuries later when, in the mid-700’s, the Popes became political rulers of territories stretching north-east from Rome to the environs of Ravenna – these territories henceforth being known as the “Papal States.”

    This development stemmed from a troublesome relationship between the Papacy and the Lombards – yet another Germanic tribe, who appear to have been Christians by the time of their arrival in 568, but remained Arians till the mid 7th Century. From the outset, they proceeded to occupy most of northern and central Italy, taking Ravenna, the capital of the Christian (though Arian), kingdom of the Ostrogoths in 571 and, after besieging Rome that same year, imposing a heavy tribute on the people of Rome and its environs in token of subjection. This new and hazardous situation eventually prompted the Pope to appeal for help – no longer to the Eastern emperor who was by then preoccupied with the expansion of Islam, but to Charlemagne’s father, Pippin II, ruler of the Franks.

    Pippin agreed to intervene and agreed, moreover, to hand over extensive Lombard territories to the Pope – including the Ducy of Benevento, south of Rome, the Duchy of Spoleto (around Assisi) to the north-east, and even the former Byzantine and subsequently Gothic territories north and south of Ravenna. Two successive Frankish campaigns followed –the first in 754, and the second in 756 (after Rome had been besieged by the Lombards for eight weeks) – the outcome being the birth of the Papal States which would remain intact until the Unification of Italy in 1870. And, as Barraclough points out in The Medieval Papacy, this was a new and momentous development, for “at no time in the whole preceding history of the papacy had there been any suggestion that the bishop of Rome should exercise temporal power, or rule as a king over a territorial state.”

    By the time of the Lombard campaigns in the mid 700’s, another political factor was adding further prestige to the Papacy – in spiritual rather than political terms. For, with the rapid expansion of Islam, all through the Middle East and right across North Africa in the century following Mohammed’s death in 634, all the other “Apostolic Sees” (Jerusalem, Antioch and Ephesus), which had originally evangelized by one or other of the apostles, were now in Islamic hands; and this meant that the only surviving Apostolic See in Christendom was Rome. Hence, Rome’s present claim to the title, “The Apostolic See.”

    Almost by chance, therefore, from the late 700’s, not only did the popes claim spiritual authority over the whole of Christendom as “Successors of Peter” and bishop of the one and only surviving “Apostolic See”, but they were recognized as the political overlords of about one-fifth of Italy also – this new status of the Papacy being confirmed in the papal coronation of Charlemagne in the year 800.


    […]

    One of the clearest indications of the new role of the Papacy can be seen in the fact that, before the early 1100’s, not a single General or “Ecumenical” Council of the Church had been summoned by a pope or even held in the capital West: from the early 12th Century onwards, however, there would be frequent Councils; all would be held in the West; and all would be summoned and directed by the pope.

    R. W. Southern supplies the details in Western Society and the Church in the Middle Ages, as follows: “Between the seventh century and the early twelfth the Councils are few and, from a western point of view, insignificant. They are all held in Byzantine territory (one at Nicaea, in 787, and two in Constantinople, in 680 and 869), and there were no representatives from the West except the papal legates, who played a minor role in the proceedings. The whole picture therefore is one of western inertia and papal impotence…


    Guthridge, Ian (1999), The Rise and Decline of the Christian Empire.
:cool:
 
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Evangelion

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Um, no. I mean my quotes from (a) R. N. D. Kelly, (b) Joseph F. Kelly, (b) Philip Schaff, (d) Catholic historian Robert Eno, (e) Catholic scholar William La Due, and (f) ex-Catholic historian Ian Guthridge.

If Guthridge is "deluded", it shouldn't take very long to disprove his arguments, should it? But he quotes other scholars in support of his claims, and the history to which he refers, is freely available.

So until you can prove that Schaff, Eno, La Due, Guthridge and the two Kellys are wrong...

...you just don't have an argument. :cool:
 
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