• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Romney or Obama?

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by JoeyArnold, Oct 4, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

    +60
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    hetta.... i will be praying for you and your sad sad sad sad mind
     
  2. JustMeSee

    JustMeSee Contributor

    +262
    United States
    Other Religion
    Private
    US-Others
    What is sad about her mind?
     
  3. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

    +60
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    it is sad to love bigger government
     
  4. Hetta

    Hetta I'll find my way home

    +4,714
    France
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    it is sad (and sinful) not to help the poor and needy.
     
  5. JustMeSee

    JustMeSee Contributor

    +262
    United States
    Other Religion
    Private
    US-Others
    It is sad to put the welfare of the most wealthy above the welfare of poor and needy.
     
  6. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

    +60
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    it is even sadder to not help the poor via the wronger meanssssssssss
     
  7. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

    +2,591
    Atheist
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    It's even sadder to use government coercion to take money from people and redistribute it, even for benevolent purposes.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
  8. JustMeSee

    JustMeSee Contributor

    +262
    United States
    Other Religion
    Private
    US-Others
    Rephrase the sentence please. Elaborate.
     
  9. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

    +60
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    it is sadder to help people via less efficient and less effective ways and stuff
     
  10. JustMeSee

    JustMeSee Contributor

    +262
    United States
    Other Religion
    Private
    US-Others
    Are those taxes?
     
  11. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

    +2,591
    Atheist
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Yes.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
  12. JustMeSee

    JustMeSee Contributor

    +262
    United States
    Other Religion
    Private
    US-Others
    Yeah, there is a lot of my tax money going places I wish it wasn't. I wish I could pick and choose where my tax money went, instead of it be coerced out of me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  13. Hetta

    Hetta I'll find my way home

    +4,714
    France
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    So, how do you plan to help them "efficiently" and "effectively" .. without money?
     
  14. trientje

    trientje Newbie

    886
    +7
    Non-Denom
    Married
    This 99% stuff is just another divisive ploy started by the democrats. Along with the war on women. this president has been the most divisive president we have ever had. And the sad thing is people bought into this. He got into office telling us he was going to be a uniter. He did the opposite. this hype about Romney being out of touch with the people because he is rich? Well, Obama is also rich. the hype about Romney not giving us detail about his economic plan? where is Obamas detail about his plan? Giving to the poor? We have an ext number of people on welfare and food stamps since Obama
    got in. He has spent us into oblivion. We are broke. We need someone that will get in there and stop this madness. Now whether Romney will do that is another question. All I know is we need a change. You don't understand, we are broke!!!!!
     
  15. trientje

    trientje Newbie

    886
    +7
    Non-Denom
    Married
  16. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    While I agree with some of your concerns, the problem with conservative thought in general is in trying to envision national finances as if they were in any way similar to home finances. They are not.

    The government being in debt is part and parcel of there being any money in circulation at all. Sadly, this debt is not achieved by the government spending the money it prints. It is circulated by allowing banks to indebt the government, then turning around and using that government debt as a "security" to indebt the public.

    Since almost ALL money now IS debt, you cannot save your way out of debt. Indeed, you cannot "pay off the debt" at all. The system is designed such that this is simply not possible. To pay off the debt is to remove almost all the securities on which circulating money is based. A huge money crunch ensues.

    In an ideal world, that could be handled. In the real world, it just creates economic chaos.

    The people who are capable of injecting enough cash BACK into the economy to keep this from happening ARE "the rich". That is to say, by definition, people who have a lot of discretionary cash are the ones who have to pay off this debt, and also the interest, and ALSO BORROW extra money in order to pay off the interest on the debt. This, incidentally, is why we have constant inflation. It is built into the system.

    I have this against Obama and the Democrats though. They are NOT doing the kinds of things European nations are doing to rangle the rich and force their hand. In Iceland in particular, many bankers were prosecuted because of the economic collapse. This, sad to say, is most likely because Icelanders and many Europeans in general are better educated as to how the world economy works.

    In the end though, neither of these guys is either going to let the whole system collapse or fix it, either one. Or at least neither of them has proposed to do so. That's why I am writing in Ron Paul. Again, I know the vote doesn't even count, but he's the ONLY person talking seriously about ANY real issue regarding our economy.

    I would hope never to have to have the man as actual President, but he serves as a nice proxy for a protest vote.
     
  17. trientje

    trientje Newbie

    886
    +7
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes, I'm afraid also that if Romney gets in he will not fix the problem but just kick it down the road. But this Obama? He has to go. Immoral, divisive, incompetent empty shirt. Probably the worst president we have ever had. What is it about Romney that you don't like?
     
  18. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    I think before I go into this much further I am going to have to have some inkling that you are willing to engage in this realistically.

    I have already provided you, really, with all you need. I can dig up a verse that says to treat the foreigner the same in certain legal situations as a native, but the Bible also does have some very strict policies about killing enemies of Israel. This is because these nations had atrocious values, though, not just because they were foreigners.

    Foreign slaves do not have to be freed at the 7 year sabbaths or the Jubile as far as I have ever seen in scripture or heard from scholars, but they are not allowed to be kept against their will.

    Point blank, how often do you really believe a slave is going to be beaten to the point of being bedridden if he or she can leave at any time? The only reason would be if they literally thought they were better off there than elsewhere. They lived in a neighborhood and a time where slaves were routinely beaten, used as sex slaves, or even killed (Wonderful, wonderful Sparta had a month every year where you could kill a Helot without any legal fears whatsoever).

    Nothing in the Bible is ideal. I already said this. But it is far more progressive even than anything that exists now. Imagine a world where the chances were good that sometime in your early to mid adulthood all your debts were going to have been forgiven several times, and finally you were going to receive a huge gob of land debt free even if your father leveraged it out from under you in his lifetime.

    These are concepts that are solidly, inarguably contained in the Old Testament concerning slavery, debt, and the nature of a Godly economy. There is really no debate to be had about the fundamentals of it all. The sick story is that people berate the Bible as if it supported a wholly immoral and barbaric system when the system the Old Testament describes is far, far more egalitarian and democratic than anything that has, in fact, EVER existed.

    Even the Jews that spawned or received it never lived up to the promise of it.

    So if you want me to go into this with a ton of scripture, taking an hour or more of my time, I need to have SOME indication that you're not going to just take one look at it and go, "meh". I find this unlikely seeing as how you are not answering MY questions.

    How do YOU explain the fact that slaves were allowed to run away, and it was illegal to return them? How do YOU explain that to steal a person to sell them was a death penalty offense? Do you allow for ANY possibility here that "slavery" as has been used throughout history is basically an economic institution that we owe someone else besides ourselves the fruit of our labor? Isn't that more or less a historical CONSTANT, even today?

    The problems with slavery in the colonies and the U.S. are manifold, but fundamentally they are simply this - to pretend on the one hand that people have rights, and on the other hand that some people are not people. THAT'S what was resolved. Not slavery per se, but racist and nationalist ideas about what it means to be a human being under the law.

     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  19. trientje

    trientje Newbie

    886
    +7
    Non-Denom
    Married
    It is true that many corporations are sitting on a lot of money right now. It is because of uncertainty. We haven't passed a budget in 3 years and do not know what the hec Obama wants to do except spend more money. If we could get someone in with a clear goal and erase the uncertainty then maybe these businesses will start spending, investing and hiring. But to raise their taxes will only stall growth. I'm led to think about FDR, who Obama has followed pretty closely. In 1937 he raised taxes and it put us into a recession within a recession. And the only thing that saved us was WW11. My knowledge on this subject is limited only to reading about this and reading about history and running my own business for 10 years. And here in Ca we are taxed to death. Our town looks like a ghost town while the liberals are running around like idiots.
     
  20. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    I sympathize with your position to a great degree as it represents my own view on things up until about two years ago. However, people whose businesses are probably a good bit further up the food chain than yours have a more symbiotic than antagonistic relationship with the government and the banks in my opinion. The two working together are as happy to crush you as they are to crush your employees. It's all grist for the mill to them.

    If you look hard at the banking issue, the function of limited liability, and the function of intellectual property taken together, what you find is a slightly more complicated equivalent to feudalism, with a much less stringently defined duty of the corporate lords to their tenants and vassals.

    Obviously all of that is a load of pure opinion on my part. I'm not up to documenting it as I have some 170+ books on my list to read just to get a real grasp on how the economy progressed FROM feudalism TO mercantilism, let alone to modern capitalism, and even to what extent these definitions truly hold any water. I -can- tell you I am not all alone by myself in holding this viewpoint though that precious little has actually changed over the years except the degree to which general human knowledge has made all of our lives more comfortable.

    And that, at least, is something.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...