Romans 9 and Cain

[FutureAndAHope]

This post looks at the topic of predestination, and presents two opposing views, one when no choice is given for salvation, and one containing free will.

The Predestination view, is that God’ planned everything, and chose pre-planned to redeem a few people that he selected, or elected for salvation. The rest are given to blindness and cannot receive salvation.

The free will view is that God presents evidences of Himself to people who then choose to either accept or reject those evidences. If they persistently reject God’s evidences they will become blind to the truth so they cannot be saved.


I wish to use Romans 9, present the Predestination idea, but also use the same passage to present the free will argument. If we were to use this passage alone, it seems to support the idea of predestination. But I wish to show that a free will argument is equally as valid, as I will show after the discussion.


Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Both: This verse is clear it states that not all Jews, are really God’s people.​

Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED."

Both: The next part says, in a similar way to Isaac being chosen, so too are God’s people.​

Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Now this is where we will start to discuss two ideas, predestination, and free will.

Predestination: will state that the promise spoken of here is identical to what happened to Isaac in the following passages.

Free will: will state that the promise here is referring to faith. The mechanism through which salvation occurs.

This is important because the way the rest of the passage is read hinges on this idea.​

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

Predestination: will state that what happened to Issac in being selected happens to all who will believe.

Free will: will state Isaac shows that the promise of God is important, in determining God’s favour.​

Rom 9:10-11 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Predestination: will state that salvation comes not based upon man’s action, but God calling the person, that the person has no part in the salvation “choice”.

Free will: will state that Isaac being called, is a type picture of faith, which is not based upon works, but upon God’s call to the sinner.​

Rom 9:12-13 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER." As it is written, "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."

Predestination: will say Esau was actually hated by God, that he was separated to damnation, and Isaac saved.

Free will: Does not put any destination on Esau, but shows that God’s choice is important when speaking of who and who is not blessed. Again going back to faith, that those who receive God by faith are blessed, those who receive just the works of the law cursed.​

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

Predestination: will say is God, sinning by choosing who “He will save, and whom “he will damn”.

Free will: will say is God unrighteous in only choosing those who have faith, and choose faith in Christ.​

Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."

Both: God will have mercy in the way He chooses.​

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Predestination: man has no choice in salvation, it is God who chooses, regardless of man’s actions.

Free will: It is not by works of the law, but by faith, that we gain God’s favour.​

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH."

Both: People can be raised up for a bad purpose, to show God’s wrath.​

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Predestination: man is blind, all will experience wrath, only God’s choosing can save a man and soften him.

Free will: Man is given evidences of God, if man chooses to abandon the knowledge of God, he becomes blind, God will harden him. If man chooses by faith to receive the knowledge of God he will see.​

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

Both: How can God blame the sinner if He allows blindness.​

Rom 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

Both: But God has the ultimate choice in what people become.​

Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honour and another for dishonour?

Both: God can make one for a good purpose, and one for a bad.​

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Free will: vessels of wrath are extended “longsuffering”, given chance to repent, if they don’t they are fitted for destruction.​

Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Predestination: God puts a special blessing on only the ones He “prepared beforehand”, every other person has no chance.

Free will: God plans for people to be saved, in that sense He has “prepared beforehand” people for glory​

Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Predestination: God’s call is what saves, both some from the Jews, and some form the gentiles.

Free will: God call some from the Jews some from the gentiles, based upon whether they bear the fruits of it.​

Rom 9:25-29 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED." "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED. FOR HE WILL FINISH THE WORK AND CUT IT SHORT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE THE LORD WILL MAKE A SHORT WORK UPON THE EARTH." And as Isaiah said before: "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT US A SEED, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WE WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE LIKE GOMORRAH."

Both: Only a portion of Israel will be saved.​

Rom 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STUMBLING STONE AND ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

Predestination: faith is given by God, it is not a choice.

Free will: faith is received by a person, salvation comes when one chooses in faith to believe God’s picture of Himself.​

Now I wish to run a person through both these tests. Cain. It was said of Cain:


1Jn_3:12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Predestination: Cain, was “of the wicked one”, so he was predestined to hell, by virtue of the fact he was not elected to salvation. He was not of “God’s sheep”.

Free will: Cain was of the wicked on because of his choice to live unrighteous, this choice resulted in his destiny.​

Gen 4:6-7 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

Predestination: ?.


Free will: God told Cain if he would “do well”, i.e. act rightly, he too could be accepted, if he did evil sin was waiting for him. God is not a Lier, this means that Cain was not predestined to hell, his acceptance was based upon his response to God, what he chose to do.​

Eze_33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[Mark Quayle]

You continue to present "predestination" as though it meant 'no choice'. It does not mean 'no choice'. It only gives the credit to God, and rightly so.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You continue to present "predestination" as though it meant 'no choice'. It does not mean 'no choice'. It only gives the credit to God, and rightly so.

Please explain in plain English, what you mean by "It only gives God the credit". How could someone who is not predestined have any real choice?

It makes more sense that God gets the credit for waning all people and giving all people a chance.

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

There are two groups in the above scripture, the saved, and unsaved, based upon whether THEY respond. God does not force salvation upon men.

I have been thinking about predestination, and it is a fearful doctrine, that offers no assurance of salvation, for "what if you are not chosen". The real cross chooses all men, but salvation comes as a result of acknowledging the cross is for them, and departing from iniquity.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Please explain in plain English, what you mean by "It only gives God the credit". How could someone who is not predestined have any real choice?

It makes more sense that God gets the credit for waning all people and giving all people a chance.

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

There are two groups in the above scripture, the saved, and unsaved, based upon whether THEY respond. God does not force salvation upon men.

I have been thinking about predestination, and it is a fearful doctrine, that offers no assurance of salvation, for "what if you are not chosen". The real cross chooses all men, but salvation comes as a result of acknowledging the cross is for them, and departing from iniquity.

Check your second sentence, first question. Did you mean to leave the "not" in there? Check your third sentence —'waning' people? I will answer when I know what you mean to say.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Check your second sentence, first question. Did you mean to leave the "not" in there? Check your third sentence —'waning' people? I will answer when I know what you mean to say.

Ok, predestination is the idea that God knows everyone, and that he selects a few for salvation, and damns the rest. What I mean is how could a damned person have any chance, if they were never preselected. God would know they are damned.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ok, predestination is the idea that God knows everyone, and that he selects a few for salvation, and damns the rest. What I mean is how could a damned person have any chance, if they were never preselected. God would know they are damned.

"A chance" is a fiction. Nothing can happen by chance —the notion is self-contradictory, not to mention it violates the logical sequence of causation. What you mean, I think, is how could they have a choice? —Because they most certainly do choose. They are without excuse.

You didn't answer about "waning" people. I'll guess you meant, warning people. So you are saying God gets more credit for warning people than he would for changing their hearts. I guess you expect those who cannot submit to God's law, and who cannot please God, who are slaves to sin, who cannot see with spiritual sight, to somehow in and of themselves see their spiritual condition, escape their slavery, shed their sinful nature, and please God by submitting to him and desire him above sin. Because if they cannot, you seem to think, God is forcing them somehow, to become saved by predestination.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I guess you expect those who cannot submit to God's law, and who cannot please God, who are slaves to sin, who cannot see with spiritual sight, to somehow in and of themselves see their spiritual condition, escape their slavery, shed their sinful nature, and please God by submitting to him and desire him above sin.

This is exactly what the bible says:

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

What are the portions of this scripture:

1) He opens their ear to instruction, i.e. shows what he wants and who He is.
2) He commands they return from iniquity, tells them to cast off sin
3) Then they have the choice, obey and their days will be prosperous or disobey and suffer destruction.


Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

1) God has shown to the world who He is
2) ...
3) But some suppress this knowledge, to them comes wrath, the saved retain the knowledge God shows them.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1) God shows man what He wants
2) ....
3) If a man keeps God's commands (primarily the command of faith) God will reveal Himself to them

Joh 3:16-21 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

1) God loves the world, and gives them light
2) ...
3) Some come to the light because their deeds are good, some hate it because their deeds are evil.

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Those who are blind, "had pleasure in unrighteousness".

God gives "instruction", "sight", "light" to man. Man either receives the light, and does what is right, or rejects the light by doing evil. This choice results in salvation, or damnation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is exactly what the bible says:

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

What are the portions of this scripture:

1) He opens their ear to instruction, i.e. shows what he wants and who He is.
2) He commands they return from iniquity, tells them to cast off sin
3) Then they have the choice, obey and their days will be prosperous or disobey and suffer destruction.

This is exactly what the bible says:

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

What are the portions of this scripture:

1) He opens their ear to instruction, i.e. shows what he wants and who He is.
2) He commands they return from iniquity, tells them to cast off sin
3) Then they have the choice, obey and their days will be prosperous or disobey and suffer destruction.

1) So you DO admit to regeneration by the Spirit of God.
2) Do you want to try to logically defend the notion that the command necessarily implies the ability to obey, or do you just assume it?
3)Yes, they do indeed have the choice. Guess which ones will choose which.

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

1) God has shown to the world who He is
2) ...
3) But some suppress this knowledge, to them comes wrath, the saved retain the knowledge God shows them.

I am at a loss as to how this proves your point. (One of my favorite references, btw.)

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1) God shows man what He wants
2) ....
3) If a man keeps God's commands (primarily the command of faith) God will reveal Himself to them

Yes, quite so, and....?

Joh 3:16-21 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

1) God loves the world, and gives them light
2) ...
3) Some come to the light because their deeds are good, some hate it because their deeds are evil.

Yes, indeed! Your point?

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Those who are blind, "had pleasure in unrighteousness".

God gives "instruction", "sight", "light" to man. Man either receives the light, and does what is right, or rejects the light by doing evil. This choice results in salvation, or damnation.

Demonstrate how the choice a man makes is what results in salvation or damnation. If your eternal destiny hinges on the reality or integrity of your choice, I'd think you should be just about frightened by now. You don't doubt you really meant it?

But I mean, demonstrate from Scripture, how it is by man's choice, not of Grace, that man is born again. Who do you think generates the faith by which man is saved?

Have you never found yourself thanking God, that he let you come along and watch?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

1) So you DO admit to regeneration by the Spirit of God.
2) Do you want to try to logically defend the notion that the command necessarily implies the ability to obey, or do you just assume it?
3)Yes, they do indeed have the choice. Guess which ones will choose which.



I am at a loss as to how this proves your point. (One of my favorite references, btw.)



Yes, quite so, and....?



Yes, indeed! Your point?



Demonstrate how the choice a man makes is what results in salvation or damnation. If your eternal destiny hinges on the reality or integrity of your choice, I'd think you should be just about frightened by now. You don't doubt you really meant it?

But I mean, demonstrate from Scripture, how it is by man's choice, not of Grace, that man is born again. Who do you think generates the faith by which man is saved?

Have you never found yourself thanking God, that he let you come along and watch?

Hi,

I don't have a lot of time to reply right now, as I am on a lunch break from work. But I will try to get my thoughts together more logically as I have time.

You said:

Do you want to try to logically defend the notion that the command necessarily implies the ability to obey, or do you just assume it?

This is what grace is about, we don't have the ability to follow the command perfectly, but grace removed the sting of the law. We are not judged under the law, but rather given liberty. Yet when we receive that grace God gives us His Spirit which enables us to live the way God desires.

I also don't believe God mocks man, by saying "try to keep it", if they can't. As an example, as I mentioned Cain:

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

From this it is clear Cain could have been saved if he "did well". God is no lier. A God who does not lie, if predestination is true would say:

Predestination version of Gen 4:6-7: And the LORD said to Cain, Why are you angry and your face sad? You have right to be, for you were never one of my flock. Sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, you will not be able to beat it.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I have tried to order my thoughts more concisely.

This is an attempt to show, how a person is saved. The overall plan of salvation.

The New Testament states that:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.​

This shows that salvation is based upon trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus to justify us, not our works, or effort. Without going into detail the bible also states that faith leads to the Holy Spirit empowering us to live close to God’s best. We are encouraged:

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.​

I first wish to lay out a brief introduction to the method of salvation, and how salvation occurs.


As people when we are born we have no knowledge of God, we walk in a quagmire of maybes, yet at some point in our lives God will give a person light, understanding, and knowledge, this can occur numerous times. As in Job the rebellious believer is given, chance after chance to change:

Job 33:29-30 "Behold, God works all these things, Twice, in fact, three times with a man, To bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life. ​

This light, understanding, or knowledge God gives to all people.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.​

It is how the individual responds to that light that determines if they move towards salvation, or move towards destruction.

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

What we do with the knowledge God gives us, will determine, our destiny. There are two pathways, our eyes remain open, and we follow after righteousness, or we desire sin more than God and drift into spiritual blindness. I show both of these pathways below:

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.​

LIFE

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.​

Jesus said that if a man loves God, he will attempt to live God’s way. God will open such a person’s eyes to His saving grace. Note that it is often the pure grace of God that leads to salvation, God showing His forgiveness and mercy toward the sinner. But the person then needs to live out their salvation, obeying God, they still need to keep His words.

Joh 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." ​

DEATH

The bible tells us that light has come to every man, but some love the darkness more than the light God reveals.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

They suppress the knowledge of God. In doing this God gives them over to a darkened heart, if people refuse repentance they will eventually become totally blind to grace, the light that God gives. If a person lives in the desires of the flesh, refusing to return to God, they will eventually perish.

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. ​

Joh 8:43-45 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. ​

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ​

Man is ultimately responsible for His own salvation. As the bible says of the sinner:

Tit 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.​

 

[JM]

No way to avoid the obvious.

God knows all things.

God knows who wouldn't be saved but still created them.

1 + 1 = 2

Scripture + Scripture = Calvinism