Romans 8: The Context of Romans 9

[Humble_Disciple]

"Romans 9 is referring to individual election of temporal and material blessing. It is not referring to election to salvation."
To make this argument, you must ignore the entire context of Romans 1-8 which is all about salvation by faith appropriated by the individual.
In fact Romans 8 is where Paul introduces the concept of predestination:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

We were chosen by God before we were born.
We were chosen so God’s purposes will stand.
We were chosen not based on man’s works or will -
but based on God’s sovereign free will to extend mercy. (Romans 9:16)
Because all men are sinful and deserve God’s condemnation, no person is wronged or treated unjustly if God chooses to condemn him.
For God to condemn sinners is not injustice.
That is justice. Justice is good. Mercy is good.
God choose who gets justice and who gets mercy.
With God, no one gets injustice.
“Why did God choose Jacob, not Esau?”
Answer: God chooses to whom He grants mercy not on the basis of man’s will, but based on God’s sovereign free will so that His purposes might stand. And that divine prerogative is what makes Him God.
Why Did God Choose Jacob, Not Esau?

 

[Clare73]

As well as:

Romans 9:1-3 where Paul grieves over the loss of salvation for ubelieving Israel.
Romans 9:14-16, Romans 9:18 were Paul is defending God's sovereignty in both mercy and hardening to salvation.
Romans 9:27 where the promise is salvation.
Romans 9:30-32 where only the righteousness that is by faith saves.

 

[renniks]

God chose Jacob for a task, not for salvation.

• The objects of wrath, God's people, were not prepared for destruction because God damned them from birth but because they constantly disobeyed him. And why would he have to be patient with people he picked for damnation, anyway? And right there in the text it tells us we are capable of talking back to God. And it tells us why most Jews were not saved, because they didn't pursue God by faith. What? We can pursue God? Not according to Calvinism!
• I don't understand why people complicate Romans 9. It's not about God picking individuals for his baseball team. It's about him using even Israel's disobedience to spread the gospel to the world.

 

[Clare73]

God chose Jacob for a task, not for salvation.

• The objects of wrath, God's people, were not prepared for destruction because God damned them from birth but because they constantly disobeyed him. And why would he have to be patient with people he picked for damnation, anyway? And right there in the text it tells us we are capable of talking back to God. And it tells us why most Jews were not saved, because they didn't pursue God by faith. What? We can pursue God? Not according to Calvinism!

• [*]I don't understand why people complicate Romans 9. It's not about God picking individuals for his baseball team. It's about him using even Israel's disobedience to spread the gospel to the world.

It's about God's absolute sovereignty, based on nothing but his personal choice (demonstrated in his election of Jacob, and not Esau--Romans 9:11-13), on whom to have mercy and whom to harden. (Romans 9:18)

 

[renniks]

It's about God's absolute sovereignty, based on nothing but his personal choice (demonstrated in his election of Jacob, and not Esau--Romans 9:11-13), on whom to have mercy and whom to harden. (Romans 9:18)

Again, Jacob was not chosen for salvation. And Esau apparently died a righteous man.

 

[Clare73]

Again, Jacob was not chosen for salvation. And Esau apparently died a righteous man.

Agreed, he is a demonstration of God's sovereign right to choose as he pleases, based on nothing but his choice. . .which sovereign right to choose as he pleases, Paul demonstrates is operating in God's choice to salvation of some in Israel (a remnant), but not all.

 

[renniks]

Agreed, he is a demonstration of God's sovereign right to choose as he pleases, based on nothing but his choice. . .which sovereign right to choose as he pleases, Paul demonstrates is operating in God's choice to salvation of some in Israel (a remnant), but not all.

God has a right to choose but nothing in Romans 9 indicates that he chooses individuals for salvation.
In fact it explains why most of Israel were not saved...., because they didn't have faith.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Based on reading the Bible, after praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I am no longer a Calvinist:

Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/jeremiah-18-romans-9-de-calvinized.8217798/
John Calvin: Not a Calvinist
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/jeremiah-18-romans-9-de-calvinized.8217798/
My intent on this forum has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.