Romans 3 8, self defense and lying

[Jeronimo890]

Hi, I was reading romans 3 8 (Why not say--as some slanderously claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is just!) yesterday and was wondering how it applied to self defense, and lying.

For example: Someone is threatening my family, and to stop him, my only option is to kill him (I know it's a bit of a stretch ). Killing is a sin, and according to Romans 3 8, you can't do evil for a good cause. So what should I do? Let him kill my family and me? I know I may sound harsh, but this is no attack on the Bible. I'm just trying find what is right and what is wrong.

Another example, this time with lying: I live during the holocaust and I am hiding Jews in my house. The nazis come and ask me if I'm hiding anyone. Again lying is a sin. So what should I do, tell them the truth and send to an horrible death those innocent? Or lie and save their lives?

Thanks in advance for your replies!!!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi, I was reading romans 3 8 (Why not say--as some slanderously claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is just!) yesterday and was wondering how it applied to self defense, and lying.

For example: Someone is threatening my family, and to stop him, my only option is to kill him (I know it's a bit of a stretch ). Killing is a sin, and according to Romans 3 8, you can't do evil for a good cause. So what should I do? Let him kill my family and me? I know I may sound harsh, but this is no attack on the Bible. I'm just trying find what is right and what is wrong.

Another example, this time with lying: I live during the holocaust and I am hiding Jews in my house. The nazis come and ask me if I'm hiding anyone. Again lying is a sin. So what should I do, tell them the truth and send to an horrible death those innocent? Or lie and save their lives?

Thanks in advance for your replies!!!

If mere 'killing' is a sin, then why did Jesus bless a Roman Centurion whose duty it is to sometimes "lay down the law"?

No, it's murder that is wrong, not killing for purposes that maintain godly order in society, or for defending one's own family or community.

 

[RaymondG]

Good question. It reminds me of a question I've always had: If Our only goal is "To make Heaven Our Home" Why do we try to avoid going there at all cost? Why, when we are told the we have little time left to live, it is the worse news ever, and not the greatest? Why when the murderer comes, we think "kill him to save us", instead of, "Thank you to giving me a quick pass to my mansion in the sky?"

Then it came to me.....im suppose to find heaven now!

But i Digress....

Peter denied knowing Christ 3 times and he didnt turn out too bad for it. I believe God would understand. Man wont...they feel making an outward claim to the faith will get them extra rewards. But God is not like man.

God is in every man......I like the idea of keeping him in there as long as possible.

 

[John Hyperspace]

For example: Someone is threatening my family, and to stop him, my only option is to kill him (I know it's a bit of a stretch ). Killing is a sin, and according to Romans 3 8, you can't do evil for a good cause. So what should I do? Let him kill my family and me? I know I may sound harsh, but this is no attack on the Bible. I'm just trying find what is right and what is wrong.

I believe that we must always have faith that God is in control of everything happening, and everything that happens to us (Isaiah 45:7); and it all works together to good (Romans 8:28). Thus do not resist, and willingly submit to the things God is doing. Jesus is our primary example, and this is why He did not resist (Matthew 5:39, Matthew 26:52, 1 Peter 2:21-23), even "unto death" (Philippians 2:8). That this non-resistance to "evil things" is what Jesus meant when He said "take up your cross": He is saying, don't try to resist the bad things when they come; submit willingly to them, without resistance, having full faith in the will of God to good. I believe a person who fights back lacks understanding, and through this also lacks faith in God.

Another example, this time with lying: I live during the holocaust and I am hiding Jews in my house. The nazis come and ask me if I'm hiding anyone. Again lying is a sin. So what should I do, tell them the truth and send to an horrible death those innocent? Or lie and save their lives?

There is a difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law (Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6). Lying is not always wrong, else God would not reward people for lying, but He did: Exodus 1:19-21. Love is the spirit of the law.

 

[John Hyperspace]

If Our only goal is "To make Heaven Our Home" Why do we try to avoid going there at all cost? We, when we are told the we have little time left to live, it is the worse news ever, and not the greatest? Why when the murderer comes, we think kill him to save us, instead of, "Thank you to giving me a quick pass to my mansion in the sky?"

Well said. I believe such a situation can quickly reveal where your heart really is; in heaven or earth: Luke 12:34.

 

[RaymondG]

Well said. I believe such a situation can quickly reveal where your heart really is; in heaven or earth: Luke 12:34.

Yes, I believe you could be right.

But what if these feelings are given by God so show us that it is not good to expect to find Heaven after the grave. What if we are supposed to find it now? What if we were told to seek the kingdom of heaven because it can actually be found ("everyone who seeks finds"). What if "The kingdom is at hand" Means that it is in reach, and not that it will come thousands of years from now, or after you die?

 

[John Hyperspace]

But what if these feelings are given by God so show us that it is not good to expect to find Heaven after the grave. What if we are supposed to find it now? What if we were told to seek the kingdom of heaven because it can actually be found ("everyone who seeks finds"). What if "The kingdom is at hand" Means that it is in reach, and not that it will come thousands of years from now, or after you die?

I do believe heaven is now. But I also believe in a future resurrection into an earth without curse, where everyone is at peace, and all know love and have understanding. One could look around and say "We're in heaven" and that would be true from a popular understanding of the word "heaven" though it would be a biblical misnomer; but from a biblical standpoint, heaven is able to be entered here. Indeed, we already are seated there in Christ: Ephesians 2:4-6

 

[Hank77]

Lying is not always wrong, else God would not reward people for lying, but He did: Exodus 1:19-21. Love is the spirit of the law.

Thanks for pointing this scripture out. It's funny how we can read something so many times and not have it stand out as something so important. There was a thread here some months ago about lying. I don't remember anyone being able to post a scripture that supported it in any circumstance, even though many of us felt that in order to protect a life it was not sinful, such as hiding someone from an aggressor.

The point about killing in order to protect someone from an aggressor I think we can point to David killing Goliath.

 

[John Hyperspace]

The point about killing in order to protect someone from an aggressor I think we can point to David killing Goliath.

I'm not sure the analogue is apt. The midwives were actually rewarded by God for their deed, which is why I would cite it. I wouldn't just cite someone in the bible as lying to justify the act. David wasn't rewarded for killing, he was actually barred from having any work in the establishing of the temple for shedding blood so it seems the opposite case: 1 Chronicles 28:3

 

[SPF]

hi Jeronimo, as was already mentioned, while all murder is wrong, not all killing is murder. I do not think you would be sinning by protecting your family. You did sort of setup a fallacious argument though in that you created a false dilemma. Why would your only option be to kill the intruder? Surely you could seek to incapacitate instead of kill. But even if you did seek to incapacitate and wound up killing the intruder in self defense, I still don't think this would be sin.

As for the lying one, I think this is more of a gray area than perhaps we realize. Rahab hid spies in her home, lied about it, and was blessed by God. The Egyptian midwives lied about how quickly the Israelite women gave birth and there is nothing about it being wrong.

Theologians such as Dr.Norman Geisler have suggested that perhaps there is a hierarchy by which we respond to when faced with moral dilemmas. For example, we are commanded to obey our parents, the government, and God. But there are times in which the commands from our parents and/or government may contradict commands from God. In those instances, we obey God first. So perhaps if a government is asking you if you're hiding innocent people that you know they intend undue harm to - it would actually be wrong for you to be honest in that case.

Sin really comes down to the condition of your heart. Jesus said that the entire law and everything the prophets said were summed up in two commands: Love God. Love Others. The 10 commandments can be seen individually as either a failure to love God or love others. So perhaps the loving thing to do, trumps the honest thing to do when hiding innocent people from a government that wants to do them harm.

 

[RaymondG]

hi Jeronimo, as was already mentioned, while all murder is wrong, not all killing is murder. I do not think you would be sinning by protecting your family. You did sort of setup a fallacious argument though in that you created a false dilemma. Why would your only option be to kill the intruder? Surely you could seek to incapacitate instead of kill.

Maybe he's a small guy....When you are smaller you cant take chances......have to go for the jugular.

 

[Hank77]

I'm not sure the analogue is apt. The midwives were actually rewarded by God for their deed, which is why I would cite it. I wouldn't just cite someone in the bible as lying to justify the act. David wasn't rewarded for killing, he was actually barred from having any work in the establishing of the temple for shedding blood so it seems the opposite case: 1 Chronicles 28:3

I wasn't comparing the lying incident to Dave and Gol as being the same. But thinking about it in those terms.....
David proved himself to be a mighty warrior and a man after God's own heart. God made him the king over his chosen people. I would say that was a reward. But we know that David also murdered an innocent man in order hide his sin.
David's work on the temple was setting down the design and the Levitical priesthood cycles, etc., but not building the physical structure. Do you think that God intended that to be a punishment or just that he wasn't given his desire to build a house for the ark?
Why do you think that the temple had to be built by someone who had never shed blood?

 

[John Hyperspace]

Why do you think that the temple had to be built by someone who had never shed blood?

The verse cited looks to indicate a correlation: it's further emphasized in the precedent: 1 Chronicles 22:7-9

As to why that was, I'd propose it has to do with the temple of God being the foundation of saving men's lives and not destroying them. If we had a passage saying something like "And God rewarded David for all the blood he shed" it could be analogous. Saving lives seems to be different than saving lives by destroying lives. I'm not meaning to say I condemn people that do, but that I don't see killing as a good thing even(especially) by the spirit; and I can't see that ever changing.

 

[Jeronimo890]

Good question. It reminds me of a question I've always had: If Our only goal is "To make Heaven Our Home" Why do we try to avoid going there at all cost? Why, when we are told the we have little time left to live, it is the worse news ever, and not the greatest? Why when the murderer comes, we think "kill him to save us", instead of, "Thank you to giving me a quick pass to my mansion in the sky?"

Then it came to me.....im suppose to find heaven now!

But i Digress....

Peter denied knowing Christ 3 times and he didnt turn out too bad for it. I believe God would understand. Man wont...they feel making an outward claim to the faith will get them extra rewards. But God is not like man.

God is in every man......I like the idea of keeping him in there as long as possible.

Thank you!!! The Holy Spirit must have spoke thru you!!!! I really needed this!! I always focus too much on details, like a pharisee!

As for wanting to die now, to go into heaven, I feel like everybody has a mission on earth and need to stay alive as long as possible to fulfil it. If not, why not suicide yourself? Why did God gave you this need in your heart to stay alive? Or why did the apostle tried to stay alive as long as possible? I feel like you can't fear death, but you have to try and stay alive.

That is just my personal opinion!

Love!

 

[ken777]

As for wanting to die now, to go into heaven, I feel like everybody has a mission on earth and need to stay alive as long as possible to fulfil it. If not, why not suicide yourself? Why did God gave you this need in your heart to stay alive? Or why did the apostle tried to stay alive as long as possible? I feel like you can't fear death, but you have to try and stay alive.

Yes, I think we all have a life preservation instinct given to us by God. I also agree everybody has a" mission on earth". I saw a notice one day which read "God put me on earth to accomplish certain things ... I am so far behind I can never die!"

 

[real tree]

Hi, I was reading romans 3 8 (Why not say--as some slanderously claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is just!) yesterday and was wondering how it applied to self defense, and lying.

For example: Someone is threatening my family, and to stop him, my only option is to kill him (I know it's a bit of a stretch ). Killing is a sin, and according to Romans 3 8, you can't do evil for a good cause. So what should I do? Let him kill my family and me? I know I may sound harsh, but this is no attack on the Bible. I'm just trying find what is right and what is wrong.

Another example, this time with lying: I live during the holocaust and I am hiding Jews in my house. The nazis come and ask me if I'm hiding anyone. Again lying is a sin. So what should I do, tell them the truth and send to an horrible death those innocent? Or lie and save their lives?

Thanks in advance for your replies!!!

Defend your family period.

 

[-V-]

Hi, I was reading romans 3 8 (Why not say--as some slanderously claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is just!) yesterday and was wondering how it applied to self defense, and lying.

For example: Someone is threatening my family, and to stop him, my only option is to kill him (I know it's a bit of a stretch ). Killing is a sin,

*MURDER* is a sin, not all killing. There are numerous occasions where the Bible differentiates between "murder" and "killing".

So, can't really answer the poll, as "let them die" and "sin" are not the only possible responses.

Lying is not always wrong, else God would not reward people for lying, but He did: Exodus 1:19-21.

To be fair, though, they were NOT rewarded for lying, but rather, "because they feared God" more than they feared Pharaoh.