Romans 3:23: Is the Christian Interpretation of It based on the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

Escape the Darkness

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Audience: Christians in general.

For the humble, average Christian evangelist on the street today, Romans 3:23 is one of Christianity’s go-to Biblical verses for “winning souls for Christ”. Basically, it is cited under their interpretation that everyone, in all of human history, without qualification, has sinned and fallen short of YHVH’s (God’s) standards, especially the subject at hand, those who lived under the Torah’s Law (Romans 3:20). Thus, absolutely everyone needs a Savior and salvation, as provided by the New Covenant (Romans 3:23-24, cf. ref. Romans 3:25, cf. ref. 1 Peter 3:18-19, Ephesians 4:8-10).

But, in an interesting parallel, the higher Calvinist, when he is around, pops up, takes advantage of this interpretation of Romans 3:23, and logically extends it to Romans 3:9-12--the context of Romans 3:23--and asserts that Romans 3:9-12, 23 is straightforwardly teaching the doctrine of Total Depravity. And, in doing so, he asserts that Christianity is inseparable from Calvinism. "After all", the Calvinist reasons, "nothing demonstrates and guarantees that all men are sinners, except the reality of Total Depravity!"

In light of this, my question is as follows:

How can one affirm that Romans 3:23 is a universal statement about all of humanity over all of human history for the sake of Evangelism, without affirming that Romans 3:9-12 is also a universal statement about all of humanity over all of human history and, in doing so, unwittingly supporting the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity? In short, does Christianity in general unwittingly use and rely on the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity as a primary tool of Evangelism?

I look forward to your thoughts!

BTW: If you give a direct answer to this question or set of questions, then please explain why you are giving the said answer that you are giving in order to make it edifying. Thanks.
 
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Wordkeeper

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The Jews believed that they possessed righteousness as the chosen people of God.

Paul's statement is to disabuse them of that notion.

Everybody is unrighteous, both Jew and Gentile.

Unrighteous in the sense of being guilty of sin, when mentally competent.

That makes minors and the insane not unrighteous.
 
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Escape the Darkness

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:wave: Greetings, Wordkeeper. Thanks for replying.

The Jews believed that they possessed righteousness as the chosen people of God.

Paul's statement is to disabuse them of that notion.

Everybody is unrighteous, both Jew and Gentile.

Unrighteous in the sense of being guilty of sin, when mentally competent.

That makes minors and the insane not unrighteous.


So, are you saying that, in Romans 3, the Emissary Saul (the Apostle Paul) is saying that, corporately speaking, Hebrews (Jews) and non-Hebrews (non-Jews) are equally sinful in general? That righteousness has nothing to do with ethnicity, in and of itself?

If so, then are you denying that Romans 3:23 is teaching that everyone is sinful and has fallen short of YHVH's (God's) standards on an individual level?
 
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Wordkeeper

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:wave: Greetings, Wordkeeper. Thanks for replying.




So, are you saying that, in Romans 3, the Emissary Saul (the Apostle Paul) is saying that, corporately speaking, Hebrews (Jews) and non-Hebrews (non-Jews) are equally sinful in general? That righteousness has nothing to do with ethnicity, in and of itself?

If so, then are you denying that Romans 3:23 is teaching that everyone is sinful and has fallen short of YHVH's (God's) standards on an individual level?

Yes.
 
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Thursday

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calvinism-gospel-spurgeon.jpg


Audience: Christians in general.

For the humble, average Christian evangelist on the street today, Romans 3:23 is one of Christianity’s go-to Biblical verses for “winning souls for Christ”. Basically, it is cited under their interpretation that everyone, in all of human history, without qualification, has sinned and fallen short of YHVH’s (God’s) standards, especially the subject at hand, those who lived under the Torah’s Law (Romans 3:20). Thus, absolutely everyone needs a Savior and salvation, as provided by the New Covenant (Romans 3:23-24, cf. ref. Romans 3:25, cf. ref. 1 Peter 3:18-19, Ephesians 4:8-10).

But, in an interesting parallel, the higher Calvinist, when he is around, pops up, takes advantage of this interpretation of Romans 3:23, and logically extends it to Romans 3:9-12--the context of Romans 3:23--and asserts that Romans 3:9-12, 23 is straightforwardly teaching the doctrine of Total Depravity. And, in doing so, he asserts that Christianity is inseparable from Calvinism. "After all", the Calvinist reasons, "nothing demonstrates and guarantees that all men are sinners, except the reality of Total Depravity!"

In light of this, my question is as follows:

How can one affirm that Romans 3:23 is a universal statement about all of humanity over all of human history for the sake of Evangelism, without affirming that Romans 3:9-12 is also a universal statement about all of humanity over all of human history and, in doing so, unwittingly supporting the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity? In short, does Christianity in general unwittingly use and rely on the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity as a primary tool of Evangelism?

I look forward to your thoughts!

BTW: If you give a direct answer to this question or set of questions, then please explain why you are giving the said answer that you are giving in order to make it edifying. Thanks.


We all have original sin, but we are all touched by the grace of God and capable of turning to him.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We choose whether to respond and cooperate with his grace.
 
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Job8

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If you give a direct answer to this question or set of questions, then please explain why you are giving the said answer that you are giving in order to make it edifying. Thanks.
Since the term "total depravity" is not found in Scripture, why don't we just ignore that and examine the Word of God?

Romans 3:9-25 (KJV)

THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

THE WICKED HAVE NO FEAR OF GOD
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

THE WHOLE WORLD IS GUILTY BEFORE GOD
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE RIGHTEOUSNESS

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

ALL ARE SINNERS THEREFORE ALL ARE JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
 
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Wordkeeper

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We all have original sin, but we are all touched by the grace of God and capable of turning to him.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We choose whether to respond and cooperate with his grace.

Augustine couldn't read Greek. He depended on a translation of Romans 5:12 to form the doctrine of original sin.

Quote
"But Augustine did not devise the concept of original sin. It was his use of specific New Testament scriptures to justify the doctrine that was new. The concept itself had been shaped from the late second century onward by certain church fathers, including Irenaeus, Origen and Tertullian. Irenaeus did not use the Scriptures at all for his definition; Origen reinterpreted the Genesis account of Adam and Eve in terms of a Platonic allegory and saw sin deriving solely from free will; and Tertullian’s version was borrowed from Stoic philosophy."

https://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=227

http://www.gentlewisdom.org/246/augustines-mistake-about-sin/



http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-criticism-of-traditional-churches-is-wrong.7923082/page-3
 
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Thursday

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Augustine couldn't read Greek. He depended on a translation of Romans 5:12 to form the doctrine of original sin.

Quote
"But Augustine did not devise the concept of original sin. It was his use of specific New Testament scriptures to justify the doctrine that was new. The concept itself had been shaped from the late second century onward by certain church fathers, including Irenaeus, Origen and Tertullian. Irenaeus did not use the Scriptures at all for his definition; Origen reinterpreted the Genesis account of Adam and Eve in terms of a Platonic allegory and saw sin deriving solely from free will; and Tertullian’s version was borrowed from Stoic philosophy."

https://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=227

http://www.gentlewisdom.org/246/augustines-mistake-about-sin/



http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-criticism-of-traditional-churches-is-wrong.7923082/page-3


And therefore.....?
 
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98cwitr

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We all have original sin, but we are all touched by the grace of God and capable of turning to him.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We choose whether to respond and cooperate with his grace.

Why would God knock on a door that He knows will never be opened? Does God do things that are in vain?
 
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Thursday

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The doctrine of original sin is wrong.


Because Augustine couldn't read Greek?

III. ORIGINAL SIN

Freedom put to the test

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Man's first sin

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".279

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay".284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground",285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286

401 After that first sin, the world is virtually inundated by sin There is Cain's murder of his brother Abel and the universal corruption which follows in the wake of sin. Likewise, sin frequently manifests itself in the history of Israel, especially as infidelity to the God of the Covenant and as transgression of the Law of Moses. And even after Christ's atonement, sin raises its head in countless ways among Christians.287 Scripture and the Church's Tradition continually recall the presence anduniversality of sin in man's history:



What Revelation makes known to us is confirmed by our own experience. For when man looks into his own heart he finds that he is drawn towards what is wrong and sunk in many evils which cannot come from his good creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his source, man has also upset the relationship which should link him to his last end, and at the same time he has broken the right order that should reign within himself as well as between himself and other men and all creatures.288
The consequences of Adam's sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.
 
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miamited

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Hi all,

I agree with erose, that we need a working definition of 'total depravity'.

Some might think of this as: We're all throat slitters and ax murderers. We all use small children for our sexual gratification. We're all just mean people to everyone.

I also agree with job8 that 'total depravity' isn't even a concept of the Scriptures. The Scriptures just say that we are all sinners. Period! Paul does list some of the various sins that we all struggle with and Jesus mentions a few in his many teachings as he traveled through Israel. I believe that the first and greatest command is the one under which we will all be condemned if we haven't accepted the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior. It will also be the one for which every born again believer will rely upon the Lord's sacrifice for forgiveness of.

We are all sinners! Does that make us seem depraved in the eyes of our fellow man? Of course not! Our fellow man generally doesn't judge what is and isn't an individual's depravity in the same way that God does. No one thinks of Oprah Winfrey as totally depraved. She is generous with her money, to a point. She has loads and loads of what we think of as 'friends'. Nearly all of the world likes her. (certainly here in the U.S.) She has attained celebrity status and is 'loved' and 'adored' by millions as a 'good' person.

However, she denies that Jesus could possibly be the only way to eternal life. I, therefore, imagine that God sees her as depraved, for He has caused to be written that there is no other name under all of heaven and earth by which men may be saved. Oprah denies this, and therefore, makes God out to be a liar. I rather imagine that God sees anyone who works to make Him out to be a liar as depraved.

God bless.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Wordkeeper

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Thursday wrote:

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".


My links prove this statement to be wrong.

Augustine used the old Latin version of the NT which translated Romans 5:12 as follows:

Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

Modern translations corrected the error as follows:


So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned--

IOW, Augustine taught that Adam was the man in whom all men have sinned , when the text contains no such information.


Rather it says instead death spread to all people because all sinned.

Do read the links for the full explanation.
 
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Erose

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Thursday wrote:




My links prove this statement to be wrong.

Augustine used the old Latin version of the NT which translated Romans 5:12 as follows:

Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

Modern translations corrected the error as follows:


So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned--

IOW, Augustine taught that Adam was the man in whom all men have sinned , when the text contains no such information.


Rather it says instead death spread to all people because all sinned.

Do read the links for the full explanation.
How do you know that the modern translations got it right? Also considering that the modern translations do not universally agree on how this passage should be rendered, probably depending upon which manuscript tradition that they translated from.

The fact of the matter is that original sin is something that quite frankly is provable. Why? Because human beings whether they have sinned or not, die every single day. Infants, before they even get a chance to sin, die. The mentally disabled from birth who do have have the capacity to sin, die as well. If human beings die because of the sins that they did, then those who do not have the capacity to sin, would be immune to death.

No there was something that occurred to all of us due to Adam's transgression, which St. Paul points out in vs 17 by again stating that through one man death entered into the world...; so Augustine got it right, as well as St. Paul.
 
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Wordkeeper

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How do you know that the modern translations got it right? Also considering that the modern translations do not universally agree on how this passage should be rendered, probably depending upon which manuscript tradition that they translated from.

The fact of the matter is that original sin is something that quite frankly is provable. Why? Because human beings whether they have sinned or not, die every single day. Infants, before they even get a chance to sin, die. The mentally disabled from birth who do have have the capacity to sin, die as well. If human beings die because of the sins that they did, then those who do not have the capacity to sin, would be immune to death.

No there was something that occurred to all of us due to Adam's transgression, which St. Paul points out in vs 17 by again stating that through one man death entered into the world...; so Augustine got it right, as well as St. Paul.

Provide a source of a commentary which translates it as Augustine does.

Dying is separation from God, futile living, life that results in returns that rusts and perishes.

Eternal life is the life Jesus had, union with God. Life that results in permanent returns, harvest, treasure.

Genesis 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
 
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Erose

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Provide a source of a commentary which translates it as Augustine does.
Moot point. The Old Latin version used by St. Augustine, if that is what he used, I do think St. Augustine did have at least passing knowledge of Greek, he just didn't master it. Not only that the idea that only until recently that scholars have figured out how to properly interpret Scripture, when we don't even have people living that speak Kione Greek any longer is just ludicrous. The you throw in the fact that the manuscripts used in most modern Bibles are from manuscripts that are extremely young.

Dying is separation from God, futile living, life that results in returns that rusts and perishes.

Eternal life is the life Jesus had, union with God. Life that results in permanent returns, harvest, treasure.
ok.

Genesis 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
I think perhaps you really don't understand the doctrine of original sin, and are arguing against something that it isn't.
 
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Moot point. The Old Latin version used by St. Augustine, if that is what he used, I do think St. Augustine did have at least passing knowledge of Greek, he just didn't master it. Not only that the idea that only until recently that scholars have figured out how to properly interpret Scripture, when we don't even have people living that speak Kione Greek any longer is just ludicrous. The you throw in the fact that the manuscripts used in most modern Bibles are from manuscripts that are extremely young.

ok.


I think perhaps you really don't understand the doctrine of original sin, and are arguing against something that it isn't.

I see you are avoiding my request. Please quote a modern scholar who interprets Romans 5:12 like Augustine.

Else you are just perpetuating an error which everybody else has already abandoned.

This is important, because the meaning of the gospel depends on correct interpretation of Romans 5:12.
 
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