Romans 14:14,15 Did Paul declare all foods clean?

Did Paul declare all food clean in Romans 14:14,15?

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LittleLambofJesus

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No indications that it had anything to do with food, Peter didn't even choose the clean animals to eat..
Even if that is the case, wouldn't those heathen gentiles coming to the faith that is of Jesus still be able to eat, what you call, "unclean" meats/foods? Where does it say they couldn't :confused:

Edit to add.....this thread isn't about Acts, but Romans. So feel free to start a thread on Peter's vison if ya like
 
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Frogster

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Did Paul have the power to make any changes? Why wasn't there any charges brought against him for dietary changes in scripture?

every respected scholar knows what mark 7;19 means.

Jesus told Paul.:p

Was peter eating with those awful gentiles or not? gal 2.


Paul ate roman guard food in acts 16.


How could barnabas be an apostle to the awful gentiles, and not eat with them?
 
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Frogster

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Did Paul have the power to make any changes? Why wasn't there any charges brought against him for dietary changes in scripture?

yes by the way, read 2 cor, he had apostolic authority, as an ambassador.


Look what uncle peter said too. Common and unclean, that covers all.




Acts 10:28 KJV And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

common
New Testament Greek Definition:
2839 koinos {koy-nos'}
probably from 4862; TDNT - 3:789,447; adj
AV - common 7, unclean 3, defiled 1, unholy 1; 12
1) common
2) common i.e. ordinary, belonging to generality
2a) by the Jews, unhallowed, profane, Levitically unclean

unclean New Testament Greek Definition:
169 akathartos {ak-ath'-ar-tos}
from 1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of 2508
(meaning cleansed); TDNT - 3:427,381; adj
AV - unclean 28, foul 2; 30
1) not cleansed, unclean 1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law 1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life
 
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Frogster

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Leviticus 11:1 And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. 3 Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. 4 Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 5 And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 6 And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 7 And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you



No shrimp, pork, catfish, lobster, crabs, clams, rabbits, mussels, octopus, conch, urchins, ,etc..
 
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visionary

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Leviticus 11:1 And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. 3 Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. 4 Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 5 And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 6 And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 7 And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you



No shrimp, pork, catfish, lobster, crabs, clams, rabbits, mussels, octopus, conch, urchins, ,etc..
and since non of the animals have changed, then there is no reason for God to change His opinion regarding what should and shouldn't be eaten..
 
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Frogster

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and since non of the animals have changed, then there is no reason for God to change His opinion regarding what should and shouldn't be eaten..

all the jewish christians were living, and eating, with gentiles at antioch.

I guess you're right, and they were wrong.
 
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Frogster

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and since non of the animals have changed, then there is no reason for God to change His opinion regarding what should and shouldn't be eaten..

he told peter eat, he ate, and that is why the jerusalem crowd got mad, acts 11;3, he doooooone ate!:D

It was roman sausage, like what paul ate, in acts 16, from a roman guard, good stuff.
 
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cyberlizard

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if your argument is sound which you believe it to be and your interpretation of Paul is accurate, then how do explain the fact he obviously perjured himself at his trial by declaring that he had not only kept the commandments, but the traditions as well.


Steve
 
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RND

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every respected scholar knows what mark 7;19 means.
Really? Mark 7 is that same as Matthew 15 and yet they don't say the same thing regarding declaring all foods clean.

What I find interesting is that if Jesus did indeed declare all foods clean are folks aware that certain animals were never considered food?

Jesus told Paul.:p
Where did Jesus tell Paul that all things declared unclean were now clean?

Was peter eating with those awful gentiles or not? gal 2.
What was he eating?


Paul ate roman guard food in acts 16.
What were they eating?


How could barnabas be an apostle to the awful gentiles, and not eat with them?
Simply say "no thanks" I don't eat those things and here's why? I do.
 
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Frogster

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if your argument is sound which you believe it to be and your interpretation of Paul is accurate, then how do explain the fact he obviously perjured himself at his trial by declaring that he had not only kept the commandments, but the traditions as well.


Steve

show the passage, because for the most part, it was how he was raised. He later called it all poop in philippians 3.

In galatians he said he was free from all that in 4;12, as was peter and barnabas, and all the rest of the jew in antioch, livings as gentiles.

Live was ongoing too, it was not a one day thing.


14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
 
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Frogster

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Really? Mark 7 is that same as Matthew 15 and yet they don't say the same thing regarding declaring all foods clean.

What I find interesting is that if Jesus did indeed declare all foods clean are folks aware that certain animals were never considered food?

Where did Jesus tell Paul that all things declared unclean were now clean?

What was he eating?


What were they eating?


Simply say "no thanks" I don't eat those things and here's why? I do.

That is what Mark 7 says, ALL. foods.

Jesus told Paul here, by the Lord. Only weak people think things like that matter, according to the context of 14.

Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.


Please don't try the word game stuff on the frog, as far as what were gentiles, and Roman guards eating and serving.:D

if peter was not eating their food, would the jews from jerusalem get mad, in both events?


Acts 11;2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, 3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” 4 But Peter began and explained it to them in order:


Gal 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
 
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cyberlizard

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show the passage, because for the most part, it was how he was raised. He later called it all poop in philippians 3.


in my reply, which is wordy but short, you'll find links which take you to a parsed interlinear new testament with the relevant passages in pdf format (so you can see I am not lying)...



The story begins to unfold in Acts 21 when Paul is accused of bringing a Gentile into the temple courts... something which at that time would have breached the halakhic legal rulings. Paul disputed this series of events. Here is how it works out in practice...

The events above are detailed in Acts 21v27-29.

He is charged initially with bringing a Gentile into the courts (v29)

He gets arrested by the Romans to avoid a riot... (v32-33)

He is then accused of being the revolutionary known as 'TheEgyptian' - whoever he was... all I know is he lost his head in the end (v38)

Paul is about to be flogged and so he uses his 'i'm a roman' get our of flogging free card (22v25)

Paul's first response to his orthodoxy as a Jew is quite cryptic and highly likely that most people do not even pick up on it. it says, My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day. (23v1)

Paul is struck on the face and bad-mouths the High Priest. He then apologises for his behaviour on the basis that he did not know who it was. This says much about Paul's attitude to the Torah's commandments, as it says, Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is ritten: ‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’ (Acts 23v5)...

Paul is not stupid, he knows its a mixed audience and divides them along party line. He says in the present tense, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23v6). Use the interlinear and see that he does indeed in this passage refer to himself as a present tense Pharisee, unless of course he deliberately perjured himself.

Paul once more affirms his observance as a Jew when he replies, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these people themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and all people. (Acts 24v13-16)

If Paul no longer believed in things like the validity of the food laws and circumcision for Jewish believers, he has once again perjured himself as he stated, everything in accordance with the Law and written in the Prophets.

he once again explains his reason for being in Jerusalem...

1. to bring gifts for the poor (specifically the Evyonim - the poor ones - those of James) - (Gal. 2v10)

2. to offer sacrifices.

3. I was ceremonially clean.

The first one causes no issue, but the last two open a substantial can of worms. To present offerings/sacrifices. So much for Jesus ending the temple worship system for believers.

As to being ceremonially clean... if all things are permissible, then he would not be defiled anyway, would he. He would only be ceremonially clean if he went through the Torah's ritual cleansing procedures. Again a sign of his observance.

Paul was now placed under house arrest rather than his current incarcaration. (24v23)

The provincial ruler changed and a fresh appeal was made to try Paul...

The charges were brought out again and Paul replied, “I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.” (25v8). Paul had done nothing in contravention of the Jewish Law. This either means he stopped sinning or alternatively, if he did sin, he used the Torah's prescribed methods to resolve himself.

Paul now, knowing he would not get a fair trial appealed directly to the Caesar. (25v11-12)

Paul once more gives a strange turn of Phrase in the Greek, he states that he lived as a Pharisee. On first glances you would think that he was referring purely to his past when you read it in English, however in Greek, it is both the aorist (a verb without a tense) and in the active form. In other words I lived (aorist) and live (active) as a Pharisee. Perfectly in line with his earlier comment. (Acts 26v5)

Paul explains how he was sent to the Gentiles to tell them to repent and show their repentance with a changed life... (Acts 26v20)

Paul is now shipped off for Rome (Acts 27v1-2). The journey was effectively a disaster, but one good thing did come out of it...

Paul said, My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors (Acts 28v17). If Paul had deliberately broken the Torah, he has just perjured himself. If he has not continued to practise his Jewish faith as a Pharisee keeping the oral/traditional rules, he has just perjured himself.


I say it is time to allow the traditional blinkers to come off and re-read the book of Acts and the letters of Paul, the Torah observant Jew. Pharisee from birth to grave and slave of Messiah.



Steve
 
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Edial

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I know a family of Pakistani Christians (they immigrated to the U.S. after an assassination attempt by Muslims) and they had a rather difficult time addressing the plain NT statements that it is OK to eat the formerly unclean food.

The social environment of Pakistan and that of their family (also Christians) shaped their consciences to see ham rather ... "unappetizing". :)

So, when we meet and eat at their house we eat food they are used to.
(She is a GREAT cook and cooks with extra spices because she knows I like it). :)

Once I cooked a Thanksgiving turkey and we all ate together. They were very polite to say they liked the turkey ^_^^_^ ... but she did love the mashed potatoes.

So, to make the story shorter, :) there was a common gathering and somehow a ham dish found it's way to the table.
I forgot how it got there.

My Pakistani friend was convinced by now that all food is clean. He read the NT statements on this topic for some time.
(Apparently this was bothering him).

My eyes turned wide when I saw him reaching out and tasting ham for the first time.
Unfortunately (or fortunately :)) that ham dish was really salty and was not that palatable. ^_^
So, he tasted it and that was it.

He tasted it by faith because he really respected NT teachings.

From that point on even the matter of conscience became a non-issue and this topic became a non-topic when we get together.

I also cannot stand ham. :)
And pork chops have too many calories. :liturgy:

I love her cooking. :)

In Christ,
Ed
 
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Deut 5:29

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I know a family of Pakistani Christians (they immigrated to the U.S. after an assassination attempt by Muslims) and they had a rather difficult time addressing the plain NT statements that it is OK to eat the formerly unclean food.

Ed


There are no such statements. :doh:
 
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Edial

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There are no such statements. :doh:
Why not?

MK 7:17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him `unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

CLEAN in Gk is same as ceremonially clean/unclean foods.

AC 10:9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
AC 10:14 "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."
AC 10:15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."


It appears that according to Acts 10:15 God cleaned the previously unclean foods.

What am I missing here?

Yet Paul stated that it is not worth the computer ink to start convincing others that certain foods are clean.
If to you it is unclean, it is unclean.

RO 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

RO 14:19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.


Thanks, :)
In Christ,
Ed
 
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