Romans 11:5-8 Proves God, Not Man, Chooses Who is Saved and Defines Who the Elect Are

[ShawnG]

5It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God has elected because of his grace. 6His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

7What then does this mean? The people of Israel did not find the favor of God they were earnestly looking for. It was only the small group that God chose who found it; the rest God hardened. 8 As the scripture says, “God made their minds and hearts dull; to this very day they cannot see or hear.”

The entire Bible is God choosing who He wants and directing events. I heard preachers years ago say God always has a remnant. It says the way is narrow and their are few that find it. Well that is because God chooses a few as a remnant in comparison to the large population that is seeking after Him. He does it the same always. If people choose Him then they can take credit so it would not be grace as the text says. God will take the credit for everything to those He saves.

Paul says he is there for Gods elect. He doesn’t say he’s there for the all those in world to know and come to Jesus. He’s there for an elected group God has already picked out as He directs Paul to those chosen ones on Paul’s journies.
Titus 1:1
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect

John 6:65
65Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”

Matthew 15:13
13But Jesus replied, “Every plant that My heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by its roots.

John15:16
16You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
(As Jesus says here those God chooses are saved no matter what. He irresistibly saves them)
John 10:29
29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

 

[Gregorikos]

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9 (NASB)

That verse clearly says that God desires all to be saved.

 

[BBAS 64]

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9 (NASB)

That verse clearly says that God desires all to be saved.

Good Day, Gregorikos

The "all (adj)" here modifies to the pronoun you.... and any

Can you tell me grammatically what do those pronouns refer to in the text?

All of whom?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Gregorikos]

Good Day, Gregorikos

The "all (adj)" here modifies to the pronoun you.... and any

Can you tell me grammatically what do those pronouns refer to in the text?

All of whom?

In Him,

Bill

"Any" is clear. The Lord is not wishing that "any" should perish. If "not any perish," how many will perish?

 

[plain jayne]

I don't usually get into the reformed discussions. But I will ask these questions. If God/Christ hates those who are not of the elect - hating them during their creation, hating them and never giving them the opportunity to be saved, but just creating them to burn forever.....double predestination...going to hell because you are a sinner, born a sinner and going to hell because you were never given an opportunity to turn from sin and to Christ....

Then why....

• Why did God give Cain four chances to do the right thing and NOT kill his brother? [1] "Why are you so angry?" [2] "Why is your face downcast?" [3] "If you do right, won't you be accepted?" [Was God lying to Cain?] [4] "If do don't do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It's desire is to master you, but you must master it." Cain could have answered those questions and asked God to help him. He didn't, but God asked and drew anyway.
• John 6 = Yes, Jesus said that he knew that his Father would draw people to him. But if those people were predestined to burn in hell without God giving them a chance to come to him by refusing to draw them to him - WHY did Jesus in Mark 6, the SAME STORY of feeding the 5,000 that Jesus had COMPASSION on these people because they were like a sheep without a shepherd and he taught them many things.

Why teach them many things if he hates them and has no to desire to see them turn to God? If he hated them while creating them with hell as their predestined purpose - why preach to them?

 

[BBAS 64]

"Any" is clear. The Lord is not wishing that "any" should perish. If "not any perish," how many will perish?

Good Day, Greorikos

Any of whom?

The Pronoun "you" refers to who?


In Him,

Bill

 

[1213]

...He does it the same always. If people choose Him then they can take credit so it would not be grace as the text says. God will take the credit for everything to those He saves....

Sorry, I don’t think that people choosing God would mean it is then not also about mercy and also God’s choice. It is possible that God is merciful for those who choose Him and are loyal to Him. And I think these support the idea that there it is not just random choosing and that people don't also choose.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

…Who shall live on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly does what is right, And speaks truth in his heart; He who doesn't slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his friend, Nor casts slurs against his fellow man; In whose eyes a vile man is despised, But who honors those who fear Yahweh; He who keeps an oath even when it hurts, and doesn't change; He who doesn't lend out his money for usury, Nor take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be shaken. ..
Ps. 15:1-5

…He gives grace to the humble.
Pro. 3:34

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[Gregorikos]

Good Day, Greorikos

Any of whom?

The Pronoun "you" refers to who?


In Him,

Bill

The "you" refers to the recipients of the letter.

The "any" refers to "anyone" - as the NIV is so translated.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV)

Or as Paul put it-

.....God our Savior,  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NASB)

 

[ShawnG]

About the “all” - Joel 2:28
And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on ALL people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

This is about the endtimes. This is happening now. But not ALL are having dreams/visions. But if ALL people in the world had dreams and visions from God then the whole world would at least know God is real and the world would be radically changed. So this is an example that ALL and other examples may not have the meaning like we believe.

In the 2 Peter Verse it is speaking to the elect of God. The all he doesn’t want parish is the elect He’s already chosen. The world in John 3:16 is the elect from every tribe and tongue throughout the world and time.

If Jesus loved the whole world like we usually interpret John 3:16 then why doesn’t Jesus pray for the world? He only prays for the ones God chose/elected for Him to have. The all loving God we are taught it makes no sense at all that He would only pray for a select group and make a statement to make sure it was known He wasn’t praying for the rest of the world.

John 17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the WORLD, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.


The ones Gid loves are the ones he chooses. He chose Israel as a nation and loved them. The other nations were left out. He didn’t love any other nation and the Bible says the nations and people of the world are counted as nothing to God and he will do to them whatever he wants for his pleasure and purpose. That’s the Bible not me. These verses people skip over but I am very sensitive and they did not make sense to me when people said Gid was unconditionally loving and compassionate to everyone. Like people just skipped over the scary things I was seeing.

 

[BBAS 64]

The "you" refers to the recipients of the letter.

The "any" refers to "anyone" - as the NIV is so translated.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV)

Or as Paul put it-

.....God our Savior,  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NASB)

Good Day, Gregorikos

Changing the translation does not in any way change the grammar.

Anyone is still a pronoun so then to which noun or pronoun does it point to?

I have posted an article from a Premiere Greek NT scholar here that deals with the text of Timothy:

God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved


Let stick for now with the text of 2 peter...is that ok with you?
In Him,

Bill

 

[Gregorikos]

Good Day, Gregorikos

Changing the translation does not in any way change the grammar.

Anyone is still a pronoun so then to which noun or pronoun does it point to?

I have posted an article from a Premiere Greek NT scholar here that deals with the text of Timothy:

God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved


Let stick for now with the text of 2 peter...is that ok with you?
In Him,

Bill

"Anyone" is an Indefinite Pronoun. Indefinite pronouns don't require antecedents.

Peter could have limited the reference of "any" by adding words such as "any of you." But he didn't do that, of course, and it would seem odd if he had because the letter is addressed "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." 2 Peter 1:1 (NASB)

The ones with the same kind of faith as Peter's aren't the ones perishing. Clearly the Lord is delaying his coming waiting in patience with the lost, not for those already saved.

 

[BobRyan]

5It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God has elected because of his grace. 6His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

7What then does this mean? The people of Israel did not find the favor of God they were earnestly looking for. It was only the small group that God chose who found it; the rest God hardened. 8 As the scripture says, “God made their minds and hearts dull; to this very day they cannot see or hear.”

The entire Bible is God choosing who He wants and directing events. .

Isaiah 5:4
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"


Ezek 18
“Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live

Matt 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Luke 7
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Rev 3
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Rom 10
9 .. if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

=================

we can go through text by text if you like.

John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that He gave"... yes... really.
Rom 2:11 "God is not partial"... yes... really

Matt 7 - the many are lost, the few are saved... but the Bible never says "God only so loved the few"

God does not say "the whole world will convert to Christianity" nor does He add to that "and I down sized the term WORLD to mean only the FEW of Matt 7"

 

[ShawnG]

Let’s use deductive reasoning to determine if God chooses. In ROMANS 9:19 what is Paul saying men will object to God about and protest against?

There are many verses that give storyline telling people to choose and repent.. I see that. But say If God chooses, He is gonna give us instructions like that cause the world still has to play out and it would be insanity if everyone knew they were just controlled. The truth is there to be found in bible but He has hidden it from the world to see just as the truth of Jesus was there but He blinded them Jews from seeing it. The preaching goes out as if things naturally happen but God still is the one who determines who is saved. Same with the rest of the Bible it reads like an organic story but it’s all being predetermined and controlled.

It can be easily established there is no free will by some simple proclamations God makes. If God is the one who sets up all these things then it’s impossible for free will. Because imagine the voting right now in AMERICA alone. Hundreds of millions voting. God says He is the one who determines who all Kings and authorities will be. That means he controls all those millions of people in our natural world that end up determining who the actual king or president will be. He determines every country’s time of existence and boundary since beginning of time. THINK ABOUT THAT. How many men have to be controlled and manipulated to set that up. And God obviously isn’t down in here in person doing it. He has to do it through men therefore He is controlling them. Very simple actually. We think men set up presidents and countries by their determination. But Gid makes it very clear many times He is the one that does. Referring back to this as a foundational fact let’s us know He controls everyone. Elections and authorities are changing all the time and he’s determining every single one of them of every single country. Governors police everything.

Daniel 4:17
so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and GIVES THEM to ANYONE HE WISHES and sets over them the basest(corrupt) of men.”


1 Peter 2:13
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is NO AUTHORITY EXCEPT THAT WHICH GOD HAS ESTABLISHED. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.
Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.


Acts 17:26
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth,HAVING DETERMINED THEIR APPOINTED TIMES AND THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR HABITATION.

Colossians 2:10
10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

Daniel 4:25
that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes.

Job 12:23
“He makes the nations great, then destroys them;

God showing He controls the Kings of the earth-Presidents of Today
Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

 

[ShawnG]

1213

Could you tell me what is it that Paul is saying men are objecting and protesting to God about in Romans 9:19?

 

[hedrick]

Remember, Romans is primarily about Israel, the Jewish people and Christians. Paul say that God has a plan for salvation of the world. In accordance with it, Jews are temporarily cut off so that Gentiles can join. But this a broad outline of his plan. It doesn't mean there were no Jews that followed Jesus, for example.

Rom 11:5 is "there is a remnant in accordance with the election of grace" (From Dunn, but it looks consistent with the Greek)

There's some ambiguity whether God chooses all the members of the remnant or chooses that there should be a remnant. Interpreters and translators have taken both approaches. I think God's purposes are worked out through human choices. So I would say that God has chosen to have a remnant, but the people in it have also responded to his call.

Interestingly the translation used in the OP seems to have a different understanding from both the OP and me. It says "there is a small number left of those whom God has elected because of his grace." This implies that God chose a larger group, but only a few are left. That is certainly consistent with the context.

 

[ShawnG]

Hedrick Romans 9 is about both nation of Israel and individuals at the same time.

what was the men questioning God being unjust about in Romans 9:14?

what is Paul saying men will object and protest to God about in Romans 9:19?

 

[BobRyan]

5It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God has elected because of his grace. 6His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

7What then does this mean? The people of Israel did not find the favor of God they were earnestly looking for. It was only the small group that God chose who found it; the rest God hardened. 8 As the scripture says, “God made their minds and hearts dull; to this very day they cannot see or hear.”

The entire Bible is God choosing who He wants and directing events. I heard preachers years ago say God always has a remnant. It says the way is narrow and their are few that find it. Well that is because God chooses a few as a remnant in comparison to the large population that is seeking after Him. He does it the same always. If people choose Him then they can take credit so it would not be grace as the text says. God will take the credit for everything to those He saves.

Paul says he is there for Gods elect. He doesn’t say he’s there for the all those in world to know and come to Jesus. He’s there for an elected group God has already picked out as He directs Paul to those chosen ones on Paul’s journies.
Titus 1:1
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect

John 6:65
65Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”

Matthew 15:13
13But Jesus replied, “Every plant that My heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by its roots.

John15:16
16You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
(As Jesus says here those God chooses are saved no matter what. He irresistibly saves them)
John 10:29
29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Romans 11 proves it is man - and not God that determines if man will fail.

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again

Rom 2:11 "God is not partial"

Romans 10:9-10 man believes and confesses "resulting in salvation"
9 .. if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them.

Save by - moving his own people.
Not "save by moving God to save some of them"

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2 proves God is not partial and it is the actions of the one choosing the Gospel or rejecting it that determine the outcome. See Rom 2:4-16

"God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.

"what more was there to do than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4 God asks "Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

 

[BobRyan]

5It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God has elected because of his grace. 6His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

7What then does this mean? The people of Israel did not find the favor of God they were earnestly looking for. It was only the small group that God chose who found it; the rest God hardened. 8 As the scripture says, “God made their minds and hearts dull; to this very day they cannot see or hear.”

The entire Bible is God choosing who He wants and directing events. .

Isaiah 5:4
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"


Ezek 18
“Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live

Matt 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Luke 7
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Rev 3
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Rom 10
9 .. if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

=================

we can go through text by text if you like.

John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that He gave"... yes... really.
Rom 2:11 "God is not partial"... yes... really

Matt 7 - the many are lost, the few are saved... but the Bible never says "God only so loved the few"

God does not say "the whole world will convert to Christianity" nor does He add to that "and I down sized the term WORLD to mean only the FEW of Matt 7"

====================================== RESPONSE:

What is the response to those texts??

Something of the form "ignoring all those texts look at these texts instead"??

Let’s use deductive reasoning to determine if God chooses. In ROMANS 9:19 what is Paul saying men will object to God about and protest against?

There are many verses that give storyline telling people to choose and repent.. I see that. But say If God chooses, He is gonna give us instructions like that cause the world still has to play out and it would be insanity if everyone knew they were just controlled. The truth is there to be found in bible but He has hidden it from the world to see just as the truth of Jesus was there but He blinded them Jews from seeing it. The preaching goes out as if things naturally happen but God still is the one who determines who is saved. Same with the rest of the Bible it reads like an organic story but it’s all being predetermined and controlled.

It can be easily established there is no free will by some simple proclamations God makes. If God is the one who sets up all these things then it’s impossible for free will. Because imagine the voting right now in AMERICA alone. Hundreds of millions voting. God says He is the one who determines who all Kings and authorities will be. That means he controls all those millions of people in our natural world that end up determining who the actual king or president will be. He determines every country’s time of existence and boundary since beginning of time. THINK ABOUT THAT. How many men have to be controlled and manipulated to set that up. And God obviously isn’t down in here in person doing it. He has to do it through men therefore He is controlling them. Very simple actually. We think men set up presidents and countries by their determination. But Gid makes it very clear many times He is the one that does. Referring back to this as a foundational fact let’s us know He controls everyone. Elections and authorities are changing all the time and he’s determining every single one of them of every single country. Governors police everything.

Daniel 4:17
so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and GIVES THEM to ANYONE HE WISHES and sets over them the basest(corrupt) of men.”


1 Peter 2:13
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is NO AUTHORITY EXCEPT THAT WHICH GOD HAS ESTABLISHED. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.
Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.


Acts 17:26
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth,HAVING DETERMINED THEIR APPOINTED TIMES AND THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR HABITATION.

Colossians 2:10
10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

Daniel 4:25
that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes.

Job 12:23
“He makes the nations great, then destroys them;

God showing He controls the Kings of the earth-Presidents of Today
Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

 

[ShawnG]

Bob Ryan, those verses you posted obviously seem to show God instructing men to choose. So you say man controls 100% of his free will And he determines his own fate.

I ask you, and there’s a good reason I ask this that will prove God controls who is saved and not saved.

what was the men questioning God being unjust about in Romans 9:14?

what is Paul saying men will object and protest to God about in Romans 9:19?