Roman or Catholic?

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A. believer

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Catchy title, huh? Anyway, I just wanted to recommend a three-part (so far) series of blog entries by Reformed pastor Douglas Wilson written in the form of letters to a parishioner who is considering converstion to the Roman Catholic Church based upon the usual justifications we constantly see here. The link will take you to his archived section of posts on Roman Catholicism. They're in chronological order with the latest one on top, so one should scroll down to the bottom and begin there. The first post is actually just a short commentary on the election of Cardinal Ratzinger to the office of pope, and above that is the first one of this series. They're entitled "Private Judgment," "Authority or Clarity," and "A Protestant Vision for Unity."
Roman or Catholic?
 

A. believer

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stray bullet said:
Which suggests what exactly?

Which refers to the obvious fact that, just because you've retained the title, Protestants don't consider Roman Catholicism catholic in the true sense of the word. That would be fairly self-evident, I would have thought.
 
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stray bullet

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A. believer said:
Which refers to the obvious fact that, just because you've retained the title, Protestants don't consider Roman Catholicism catholic in the true sense of the word. That would be fairly self-evident, I would have thought.

Catholic meaning what?
 
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BjBarnett

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Which refers to the obvious fact that, just because you've retained the title, Protestants don't consider Roman Catholicism catholic in the true sense of the word. That would be fairly self-evident, I would have thought.

are you suggesting we are not apart of the universal church?

the only other way I can see of looking at that is to say that we are not universal in the sense of we are not everywhere which is kinda true but we are certainly more places in the world than any other Christian sect. i hope your not saying that we are not apart of the universal church.
 
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A. believer

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BjBarnett said:
are you suggesting we are not apart of the universal church?

the only other way I can see of looking at that is to say that we are not universal in the sense of we are not everywhere which is kinda true but we are certainly more places in the world than any other Christian sect. i hope your not saying that we are not apart of the universal church.

Where the Roman Catholic Church stands in relation to the universal church is a debateable subject within Protestantism, although the author of the blog entries I linked to takes the position that Roman Catholic baptism places one under the New Testament covenant. But obviously we consider the Roman Catholic Church far too sectarian to be called catholic. Sectarianism isn't about location, but about beliefs and practice.
 
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Dark_Lite

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A. believer said:
Where the Roman Catholic Church stands in relation to the universal church is a debateable subject within Protestantism, although the author of the blog entries I linked to takes the position that Roman Catholic baptism places one under the New Testament covenant. But obviously we consider the Roman Catholic Church far too sectarian to be called catholic. Sectarianism isn't about location, but about beliefs and practice.

Thankfully you don't speak for all protestants.
 
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A. believer

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Dark_Lite said:
Thankfully you don't speak for all protestants.

If anyone believes that true catholicity subsists in the Roman Catholic faith community, s/he would not be Protestant. But instead of getting hung up on the title, if you want to understand, perhaps you should just read the posts.
 
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stray bullet

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A. believer said:
If anyone believes that true catholicity subsists in the Roman Catholic faith community, s/he would not be Protestant. But instead of getting hung up on the title, if you want to understand, perhaps you should just read the posts.

I don't. The Roman Catholic Church is only part of the Catholic Church, it is but one of twenty-three Churches of the Catholic faith.

The article bases itself on the title, the idea that the Catholic Church is somehow separate from the true universal church, which consists of protestants.

I'm quite interested in knowing at what point the Catholic Church separated itself from the 'catholic' church as you see it.
 
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A. believer

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stray bullet said:
I don't. The Roman Catholic Church is only part of the Catholic Church, it is but one of twenty-three Churches of the Catholic faith.

I presume you're defining Roman Catholic Church with Latin rite Catholic Church. I'm referring to churches that are under the authority of the Roman magisterium which would include all those rites.

The article bases itself on the title, the idea that the Catholic Church is somehow separate from the true universal church, which consists of protestants.

The pieces are responses to the reasons Protestants give for converting to Roman Catholicism.

I'm quite interested in knowing at what point the Catholic Church separated itself from the 'catholic' church as you see it.

I wouldn't frame it the way you did, but I guess I'd say that Rome became increasing less catholic throughout the middle ages as it arrogated more and more authority to itself.
 
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stray bullet

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I presume you're defining Roman Catholic Church with Latin rite Catholic Church. I'm referring to churches that are under the authority of the Roman magisterium which would include all those rites.

There are rites and there are Churches. The Church consists of 6 and 23 respectively. Referring to the Catholic Church as "Roman" is an offense against the universality of the Church and the myriad of liturgical and cultural heritages found within.

The pieces are responses to the reasons Protestants give for converting to Roman Catholicism.

The reasons for genuine conversion is a conviction of the heart. I was raised as a protestant, went to Church on Sundays, participated in the youth group, but when my time came, joined the Catholic Church. Not because of arguments and reasons listed in the article. The histories, the arguments and so forth are nothing more than aids. The reason many of the Catholic converts and myself came back to the Church was because we heard the morality and teachings of the Church and knew in our hearts as we heard it that it was the truth.
[bible]John 10:27[/bible]
I find articles like this a bit misleading on the why people genuinely become Catholic. It saddens me that there are those that don't allow themselves to understand. I regret my own biases in the past and anti-Catholicism that held me at bay.


I wouldn't frame it the way you did, but I guess I'd say that Rome became increasing less catholic throughout the middle ages as it arrogated more and more authority to itself.

But you are certain now we aren't Catholic? Can you tell me when we became 0% and by what authority you declare this?
 
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A. believer

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stray bullet said:
There are rites and there are Churches. The Church consists of 6 and 23 respectively. Referring to the Catholic Church as "Roman" is an offense against the universality of the Church and the myriad of liturgical and cultural heritages found within.

I don't know what the numbers 6 and 23 signify. You'll have to be explicit. But as to you taking offense at the designation "Roman," I'm afraid you're just going to have to accept the fact that people who consider your self-designations illegitimate may not be inclined to use them (or at least not without qualifiers such as, in this case, "Roman").

The reasons for genuine conversion is a conviction of the heart. I was raised as a protestant, went to Church on Sundays, participated in the youth group, but when my time came, joined the Catholic Church. Not because of arguments and reasons listed in the article. The histories, the arguments and so forth are nothing more than aids. The reason many of the Catholic converts and myself came back to the Church was because we heard the morality and teachings of the Church and knew in our hearts as we heard it that it was the truth.
[bible]John 10:27

If you justify your conversion this way, then fine, but when Protestants say similar things, they're generally likened by Roman Catholics to Mormons who look for a "burning in the bosom," to confirm the so-called truth of Mormonism.

I find articles like this a bit misleading on the why people genuinely become Catholic. It saddens me that there are those that don't allow themselves to understand.

"Articles like this" address the problems with stated justifications converts and potential converts give for converting. If the converts didn't use these bad arguments, then there would be no need to address them.

In any case, for the Protestant, the ultimate standard for truth is the God-breathed Holy Scriptures. It is the unyielding first principle against which all truth claims must be judged. "Knowing in our hearts" isn't good enough unless our hearts are confirming what God has publicly and openly revealed.

But you are certain now we aren't Catholic? Can you tell me when we became 0% and by what authority you declare this?

I don't think catholicity can be measured in percentages.
 
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Miss Shelby

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A. believer said:
If anyone believes that true catholicity subsists in the Roman Catholic faith community, s/he would not be Protestant. But instead of getting hung up on the title, if you want to understand, perhaps you should just read the posts.
My irony meter just exploded. Seems to me this thread's premise is based on some folks who seem to place a great deal of importance on titles. Or more specifically, what they think the Catholic Church is not entitled to.

Reminds me of the old Styx tune.. 'Too Much Time on My Hands'..

Michelle
 
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A. believer

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Miss Shelby said:
My ironly meter just exploded. Seems to me this thread's premise is based on some folks who seem to place a great deal of importance on titles. Or more specifically, what they think the Catholic Church is not entitled to.

Reminds me of the old Styx tune.. 'Too Much Time on My Hands'..

Michelle

The thread's premise is just to get people to read a good series of blog entries. The title is directly lifted from the blogger who categorizes all his entries under various clever titles. The blog, itself, is called "Blog and Mablog." Tell me that isn't clever.
 
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