Roman church errors and inventions

jpark43 said:

Mother of God
Immaculate Conception

I believe these errors need to be corrected right now!

Why? Well, take a look at this!

My buddy Saint Augustine was deceived

Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My buddy John Calvin was deceived

John Calvin's views on Mary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My buddy Martin Luther was deceived

Martin Luther's views on Mary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My buddy Paul... I don't know?

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I always found it hysterical when Evangelicals go after the Catholics about Mary and have no idea that the biggest names in the Reformation held to similiar beliefs of Mary and by today's Evangelical standards would be considered Mary Worshipers.

boswd said:

I always found it hysterical when Evangelicals go after the Catholics about Mary and have no idea that the biggest names in the Reformation held to similiar beliefs of Mary and by today's Evangelical standards would be considered Mary Worshipers.

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In a way it's a good thing that Evangelical or Fundamentalists or what ever they want to be called don't pay that much attention to the Blessed Mother.

For me, I spent the first 40 years of my life on the outside looking in and to be frank, the most vocal and visible aspects of Christendom had pretty much destroyed the image of Jesus. Fortunately, they've pretty much left the Blessed Mother alone, and in that sense haven't made her look nearly that bad. So, not having a corrupted view of Blessed Mary, I felt compelled to devote myself to her. Of course, any good mother will divert attention from herself to her child and sure enough, it's the Blessed Virgin Mother who introduced me to her glorious Son, Jesus.

I do find it interesting, in these few weeks past Christmas, that Mary has pretty much disappeared from Christian radio. It seems like they only pull her off the shelf around Christmas when she's pretty much unavoidable.

Scripture says that all generations will call her blessed. Evangelicals (or Fundamentals or what ever they want to be called) don't call her anything much at all.

boswd said:

I always found it hysterical when Evangelicals go after the Catholics about Mary and have no idea that the biggest names in the Reformation held to similiar beliefs of Mary and by today's Evangelical standards would be considered Mary Worshipers.

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At least I know. Does that make me a ignorant Evangelical? What is a Evangelical?

The only people that believe that the ancients didn't know the earth was a sphere are the ones that write textbooks for American Public Schools.

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I will second this one too... and Secundulus said that ^

Secundulus said:

Everyone knew the earth was a sphere since several hundred years before the birth of Christ.

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Pythagoras theorized that the earth was a sphere, and this was understood and taught in Greece from the 5th c. BC. In 240 BC, using comparative triangulation, Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth to within a 5% margin of error.

boswd said:

I always found it hysterical when Evangelicals go after the Catholics about Mary and have no idea that the biggest names in the Reformation held to similiar beliefs of Mary and by today's Evangelical standards would be considered Mary Worshipers.

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oh.. that is an interesting point...What about Predestination in Augustine? Also?

And the fillioque in the Creed?

After all there are more similarities I think

Flat Earth and Galileo

bbbbbbb said:

I am not sure that everyone did know that, but it is a fact that many believed it to be true several hundred years before the birth of Jesus Christ. However, that fact did not stop the Catholic Church from declaring dogmatically that the earth was flat and that anyone such as Galileo Galilei who declared otherwise was a heretic and was to be excommunicated.

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Please point out where the Catholic Church "declar[ed] dogmatically that the earth was flat". I think it's been too long since school for you, Galileo didn't proclaim a round earth, he proclaimed that the sun was the center of the solar system and that that the planets moved around the sun instead of everything moving around the earth (heliocentricity).

As for the medieval belief in a flat-earth, it's a modern myth started in the 19th century to mock the previous generations' supposed ignorance even though people have been trying to calculate the size of the globe since Eratosthenes in the third century BC calculated the circumference of the Earth and the distance to the moon within 1% of the modern values.

Stephen Jay Gould said:

[T]here never was a period of "flat earth darkness" among scholars (regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now). Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the earth’s roundness as an established fact of cosmology.

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As for Galileo, he promoted the work of Copernicus, with evidence from telescopes. St. Robert Bellarmine allowed heliocentricity as a calculating device (since it was much mathematically simpler than geostationary models) but would not allow it as a physical truth since it seemed to contradict Scripture. Galileo's work was judged by the Inquisition and placed on the Index.

The Inquisition allowed him to produce another work, in which there was a balanced treatment of both views (shades of Intelligent Design / Creationist criticisms of public school textbooks). However, the book was quite unbalanced and so he was called before the Inquisition again. He rejected heliocentricity under oath but was still found guilty of "suspicion of heresy" and subjected to house arrest (taking into consideration that he was already 70). Contrary to popular belief, he was not excommunicated.

The general prohibition in the Index against heliocentric works was removed in 1758 (125 years after the Galileo trial). The uncensored versions of Copernicus and Galileo's books were finally removed from the Index in 1835 (following the overruling by Pope Pius VII of an attempt in 1820 to refuse a nihil obstat to a work treating heliocentricity as a physical fact). In 1992 and in 2000, Pope John Paul II apologized for the handling of Galileo.

So, there was no dogma declared regarding either a flat-earth or geocentrism nor was Galileo excommunicated. It is interesting to compare Galileo's experience with the Scopes trial and other conflict between Creationists and Darwinists. The Catholic Church holds both positions (young earth creationism and theistic evolution) to be compatible with Scripture and Church Teaching, though it has tended towards the latter (and I tend towards the former).

Many great scientists have been very pious people, priests and religious. In modern times, the person who proposed the "Big Bang Theory" was not actually an atheist as one might suppose but a Catholic priest -- Msgr Georges Lemaître. There must be a reconciliation between faith and reason, not falling into the errors of rationalism or fideism. Although by the nature of science, most hypotheses will turn out false, they must all accord with faith since the same God reveals Himself through nature and through the Scriptures.

Scripture says that all generations will call her blessed. Evangelicals (or Fundamentals or what ever they want to be called) don't call her anything much at all.

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We call her blessed for her being allowed by God to be given the choice to carry Jesus and she agreed submiting herself to God in a way we all should.
We do not give her Latria because she was not a deity but just a fellow sinful human who needed a savior as we all do.

Livindesert said:

We call her blessed for her being allowed by God to be given the choice to carry Jesus and she agreed submiting herself to God in a way we all should.
We do not give her Latria because she was not a deity but just a fellow sinful human who needed a savior as we all do.

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"We do not give her Latria because she was not a deity "


I'm going to keep posting this until you kill your strawman.

How is veneration expressed in the non-RC, non-OO and non-EO Churches ?
How is worship expressed in the non-RC, non-OO and non-EO Churches ?

Livindesert said:

We call her blessed for her being allowed by God to be given the choice to carry Jesus and she agreed submiting herself to God in a way we all should.
We do not give her Latria because she was not a deity but just a fellow sinful human who needed a savior as we all do.

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Funny, I've never heard an evangelical or fundamentalist or whatever they want to be called call the Blessed Mother 'blessed'.

I have heard her called 'dead' and in this instance 'a sinner' but never blessed.

Like I said, it's just as well you've left her alone.

jpark43 said:

At least I know. Does that make me a ignorant Evangelical? What is a Evangelical?

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in today's terms it has taken on a life of it's own when describing a certain sect of Protestants, namely the Non denoms, Pentacostal, Baptists.
The ones that tend be called "Born Again" Christians.

Livindesert said:

We call her blessed for her being allowed by God to be given the choice to carry Jesus and she agreed submiting herself to God in a way we all should.
We do not give her Latria because she was not a deity but just a fellow sinful human who needed a savior as we all do.

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I would love to know when was the last time a Fundamentalist Church ever reffered to her as the Blessed Virgin Mary or even Blessed Mary.

I'm not trying to be snarky but in truth its a description many of the evangelicals shy away from at the risk of sounding too much like the Catholic church.

It is very common to be heard in the Anglican Church's, The Lutheran and in my UMC growing up (can't vouch church wide on the UMC).

But the Fundamentalist Evangelicals? I seriously would be shocked to hear a Pastor refer to Mary as Blessed.

boswd said:

I would love to know when was the last time a Fundamentalist Church ever reffered to her as the Blessed Virgin Mary or even Blessed Mary.

I'm not trying to be snarky but in truth its a description many of the evangelicals shy away from at the risk of sounding too much like the Catholic church.

It is very common to be heard in the Anglican Church's, The Lutheran and in my UMC growing up (can't vouch church wide on the UMC).

But the Fundamentalist Evangelicals? I seriously would be shocked to hear a Pastor refer to Mary as Blessed.

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When I was attending theological classes and the historical subject of Theotikos was being discussed, one of the students laughingly said that he was going to name his dog "Theotikos".

That is the fruit of "Modern" Protestantism.

To give credit where credit is due, the Professor, a Southern Baptist Dr. of Theology, with a somewhat shocked look on his face told that guy that this was a very bad idea.

boswd said:

in today's terms it has taken on a life of it's own when describing a certain sect of Protestants, namely the Non denoms, Pentacostal, Baptists.
The ones that tend be called "Born Again" Christians.

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I'm a Evangelical?

Here is an interesting article:

Indigenous demand revocation of 1493 papal bull

By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.

NCR Staff

Rome It was scripted as a moment of high drama. In the fading twilight of Oct. 12, a spokesperson for a delegation of indigenous persons from the Americas approached a Swiss Guard in St. Peter’s Square and handed him a document for the pope. It was a copy of the 1493 papal bull Inter Caetera urging that the "barbarous nations" of the New World "be overthrown and brought to the faith."

"On the part of indigenous persons throughout the world, we call on the pope to formally revoke this, which led to our subjugation in the name of Christianity," said Steve Newcomb, a member of the Shawnee and

Lenape nations of North America. He asked the guard to inform the pope of their request, delivered on the 508th anniversary of Columbus’ arrival in the Caribbean.

Then, as ears strained to pick up what could have been words of either defiance or understanding, the guard looked at the document, paused, and blankly replied: "Do you have an envelope?"

So it went for this quixotic band of nine native persons from Hawaii, Oregon and Puerto Rico, who made their way to Rome in mid-October. During their brief stay, Vatican officials were alternately elusive or befuddled in their dealings with this unusual pilgrimage.

The group sought to remind Catholic leaders of the record of conquest, disease and slavery in the Americas, sometimes justified in the name of Christianity. After contact with Spanish soldiers and missionaries in central Mexico, for example, the population plummeted from about 25 million in 1519 to about 1.9 million in 1580. In Haiti, where Columbus directed a military expedition against natives, the population fell from an estimated 3 million in 1496 to perhaps a few hundred in 1542.

"In the name of Christ, horrible things have been done," said Naniki Reyes Ocasio of the Taíno people in Puerto Rico. "We’re offering the Vatican a chance to cleanse that, to say this is not what Jesus stood for."

Their effort dates back to 1992, when the Indigenous Law Center of Eugene, Ore., a research and advocacy group for native persons, wrote the pope asking that Inter Caetera be revoked. Since 1997, indigenous persons have gathered each Oct. 12 in Honolulu to burn copies of the bull.

Prompted in part by John Paul II’s March 12 public apology for past wrongs of the church, the group traveled to Rome this year. Armed with a supportive letter from Bishop Francis X. DiLorenzo of Honolulu, they hoped to meet with the pope.

In the end, they settled for a meeting with Msgr. Giampolo Crepaldi, undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, whom they described as sympathetic but noncommittal.

The apparent lack of impact left the group undaunted.

"We’ll be back next year," said Eric Po’ohina from Hawaii’s Kanaka Maoli people. "This is only the beginning."



I suspect a very warm place will freeze solidly over before a Papal Bull is revoked or rescinded. They are usually consigned to the Vatican's dustbin.

Here is the complete text of the aforesaid Papal Bull:

English Translation

Alexander, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to the illustrious sovereigns, our very dear son in Christ, Ferdinand, king, and our very dear daughter in Christ, Isabella, queen of Castile, Leon, Aragon, Sicily, and Granada, health and apostolic benediction. Among other works well pleasing to the Divine Majesty and cherished of our heart, this assuredly ranks highest, that in our times especially the Catholic faith and the Christian religion be exalted and be everywhere increased and spread, that the health of souls be cared for and that barbarous nations be overthrown and brought to the faith itself. Wherefore inasmuch as by the favor of divine clemency, we, though of insufficient merits, have been called to this Holy See of Peter, recognizing that as true Catholic kings and princes, such as we have known you always to be, and as your illustrious deeds already known to almost the whole world declare, you not only eagerly desire but with every effort, zeal, and diligence, without regard to hardships, expenses, dangers, with the shedding even of your blood, are laboring to that end; recognizing also that you have long since dedicated to this purpose your whole soul and all your endeavors -- as witnessed in these times with so much glory to the Divine Name in your recovery of the kingdom of Granada from the yoke of the Saracens -- we therefore are rightly led, and hold it as our duty, to grant you even of our own accord and in your favor those things whereby with effort each day more hearty you may be enabled for the honor of God himself and the spread of the Christian rule to carry forward your holy and praiseworthy purpose so pleasing to immortal God. We have indeed learned that you, who for a long time had intended to seek out and discover certain islands and mainlands remote and unknown and not hitherto discovered by others, to the end that you might bring to the worship of our Redeemer and the profession of the Catholic faith their residents and inhabitants, having been up to the present time greatly engaged in the siege and recovery of the kingdom itself of Granada were unable to accomplish this holy and praiseworthy purpose; but the said kingdom having at length been regained, as was pleasing to the Lord, you, with the wish to fulfill your desire, chose our beloved son, Christopher Columbus, a man assuredly worthy and of the highest recommendations and fitted for so great an undertaking, whom you furnished with ships and men equipped for like designs, not without the greatest hardships, dangers, and expenses, to make diligent quest for these remote and unknown mainlands and islands through the sea, where hitherto no one had sailed; and they at length, with divine aid and with the utmost diligence sailing in the ocean sea, discovered certain very remote islands and even mainlands that hitherto had not been discovered by others; wherein dwell very many peoples living in peace, and, as reported, going unclothed, and not eating flesh. Moreover, as your aforesaid envoys are of opinion, these very peoples living in the said islands and countries believe in one God, the Creator in heaven, and seem sufficiently disposed to embrace the Catholic faith and be trained in good morals. And it is hoped that, were they instructed, the name of the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ, would easily be introduced into the said countries and islands. Also, on one of the chief of these aforesaid islands the said Christopher has already caused to be put together and built a fortress fairly equipped, wherein he has stationed as garrison certain Christians, companions of his, who are to make search for other remote and unknown islands and mainlands. In the islands and countries already discovered are found gold, spices, and very many other precious things of divers kinds and qualities. Wherefore, as becomes Catholic kings and princes, after earnest consideration of all matters, especially of the rise and spread of the Catholic faith, as was the fashion of your ancestors, kings of renowned memory, you have purposed with the favor of divine clemency to bring under your sway the said mainlands and islands with their residents and inhabitants and to bring them to the Catholic faith. Hence, heartily commending in the Lord this your holy and praiseworthy purpose, and desirous that it be duly accomplished, and that the name of our Savior be carried into those regions, we exhort you very earnestly in the Lord and by your reception of holy baptism, whereby you are bound to our apostolic commands, and by the bowels of the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, enjoin strictly, that inasmuch as with eager zeal for the true faith you design to equip and despatch this expedition, you purpose also, as is your duty, to lead the peoples dwelling in those islands and countries to embrace the Christian religion; nor at any time let dangers or hardships deter you therefrom, with the stout hope and trust in your hearts that Almighty God will further your undertakings. And, in order that you may enter upon so great an undertaking with greater readiness and heartiness endowed with the benefit of our apostolic favor, we, of our own accord, not at your instance nor the request of anyone else in your regard, but of our own sole largess and certain knowledge and out of the fullness of our apostolic power, by the authority of Almighty God conferred upon us in blessed Peter and of the vicarship of Jesus Christ, which we hold on earth, do by tenor of these presents, should any of said islands have been found by your envoys and captains, give, grant, and assign to you and your heirs and successors, kings of Castile and Leon, forever, together with all their dominions, cities, camps, places, and villages, and all rights, jurisdictions, and appurtenances, all islands and mainlands found and to be found, discovered and to be discovered towards the west and south, by drawing and establishing a line from the Arctic pole, namely the north, to the Antarctic pole, namely the south, no matter whether the said mainlands and islands are found and to be found in the direction of India or towards any other quarter, the said line to be distant one hundred leagues towards the west and south from any of the islands commonly known as the Azores and Cape Verde. With this proviso however that none of the islands and mainlands, found and to be found, discovered and to be discovered, beyond that said line towards the west and south, be in the actual possession of any Christian king or prince up to the birthday of our Lord Jesus Christ just past from which the present year one thousand four hundred and ninety-three begins. And we make, appoint, and depute you and your said heirs and successors lords of them with full and free power, authority, and jurisdiction of every kind; with this proviso however, that by this our gift, grant, and assignment no right acquired by any Christian prince, who may be in actual possession of said islands and mainlands prior to the said birthday of our Lord Jesus Christ, is hereby to be understood to be withdrawn or taken away. Moreover we command you in virtue of holy obedience that, employing all due diligence in the premises, as you also promise -- nor do we doubt your compliance therein in accordance with your loyalty and royal greatness of spirit -- you should appoint to the aforesaid mainlands and islands worthy, God-fearing, learned, skilled, and experienced men, in order to instruct the aforesaid inhabitants and residents in the Catholic faith and train them in good morals. Furthermore, under penalty of excommunication late sententie to be incurred ipso facto, should anyone thus contravene, we strictly forbid all persons of whatsoever rank, even imperial and royal, or of whatsoever estate, degree, order, or condition, to dare, without your special permit or that of your aforesaid heirs and successors, to go for the purpose of trade or any other reason to the islands or mainlands, found and to be found, discovered and to be discovered, towards the west and south, by drawing and establishing a line from the Arctic pole to the Antarctic pole, no matter whether the mainlands and islands, found and to be found, lie in the direction of India or toward any other quarter whatsoever, the said line to be distant one hundred leagues towards the west and south, as is aforesaid, from any of the islands commonly known as the Azores and Cape Verde; apostolic constitutions and ordinances and other decrees whatsoever to the contrary notwithstanding. We trust in Him from whom empires and governments and all good things proceed, that, should you, with the Lord's guidance, pursue this holy and praiseworthy undertaking, in a short while your hardships and endeavors will attain the most felicitous result, to the happiness and glory of all Christendom. But inasmuch as it would be difficult to have these present letters sent to all places where desirable, we wish, and with similar accord and knowledge do decree, that to copies of them, signed by the hand of a public notary commissioned therefor, and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical officer or ecclesiastical court, the same respect is to be shown in court and outside as well as anywhere else as would be given to these presents should they thus be exhibited or shown. Let no one, therefore, infringe, or with rash boldness contravene, this our recommendation, exhortation, requisition, gift, grant, assignment, constitution, deputation, decree, mandate, prohibition, and will. Should anyone presume to attempt this, be it known to him that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul. Given at Rome, at St. Peter's, in the year of the incarnation of our Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety-three, the fourth of May, and the first year of our pontificate.
Gratis by order of our most holy lord, the pope.
June. For the referendary, For J. Bufolinus,

A. de Mucciarellis. A. Santoseverino.

L. Podocatharus.

I wonder if the non-RC Christians who descended from the early colonial Christian groups have issued an apology to the Indigenous Americans ?

bbbbbbb said:

Here is an interesting article:

Indigenous demand revocation of 1493 papal bull

By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.

NCR Staff

Rome It was scripted as a moment of high drama. In the fading twilight of Oct. 12, a spokesperson for a delegation of indigenous persons from the Americas approached a Swiss Guard in St. Peter’s Square and handed him a document for the pope. It was a copy of the 1493 papal bull Inter Caetera urging that the "barbarous nations" of the New World "be overthrown and brought to the faith."

"On the part of indigenous persons throughout the world, we call on the pope to formally revoke this, which led to our subjugation in the name of Christianity," said Steve Newcomb, a member of the Shawnee and

Lenape nations of North America. He asked the guard to inform the pope of their request, delivered on the 508th anniversary of Columbus’ arrival in the Caribbean.

Then, as ears strained to pick up what could have been words of either defiance or understanding, the guard looked at the document, paused, and blankly replied: "Do you have an envelope?"

So it went for this quixotic band of nine native persons from Hawaii, Oregon and Puerto Rico, who made their way to Rome in mid-October. During their brief stay, Vatican officials were alternately elusive or befuddled in their dealings with this unusual pilgrimage.

The group sought to remind Catholic leaders of the record of conquest, disease and slavery in the Americas, sometimes justified in the name of Christianity. After contact with Spanish soldiers and missionaries in central Mexico, for example, the population plummeted from about 25 million in 1519 to about 1.9 million in 1580. In Haiti, where Columbus directed a military expedition against natives, the population fell from an estimated 3 million in 1496 to perhaps a few hundred in 1542.

"In the name of Christ, horrible things have been done," said Naniki Reyes Ocasio of the Taíno people in Puerto Rico. "We’re offering the Vatican a chance to cleanse that, to say this is not what Jesus stood for."

Their effort dates back to 1992, when the Indigenous Law Center of Eugene, Ore., a research and advocacy group for native persons, wrote the pope asking that Inter Caetera be revoked. Since 1997, indigenous persons have gathered each Oct. 12 in Honolulu to burn copies of the bull.

Prompted in part by John Paul II’s March 12 public apology for past wrongs of the church, the group traveled to Rome this year. Armed with a supportive letter from Bishop Francis X. DiLorenzo of Honolulu, they hoped to meet with the pope.

In the end, they settled for a meeting with Msgr. Giampolo Crepaldi, undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, whom they described as sympathetic but noncommittal.

The apparent lack of impact left the group undaunted.

"We’ll be back next year," said Eric Po’ohina from Hawaii’s Kanaka Maoli people. "This is only the beginning."



I suspect a very warm place will freeze solidly over before a Papal Bull is revoked or rescinded. They are usually consigned to the Vatican's dustbin.

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Who would have ever imagined that the Catholic Church would actually call for the conversion of the heathen to Christianity?

It is unthinkable that a Christian organization would actually have the unmitigated gall to do such a thing.

Jesus would never do something so culturally insensitive as to suggest that they should follow him instead of something else.

Here is another interesting link to a very dusty Papal bull - Medieval Sourcebook: Witchcraft Documents [15th Century]