Roman baptism....

[Light of the East]

Having a bit of a discussion with a Roman apologist about baptism. First thing I have to put up with is this:

https://chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/8631243_orig.jpg

So Jesus went down in to a river to have a clam shell full of water poured over His head. Sheeesh!!!

Then, after I make the case that proper baptism (i.e., immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is a very important picture of our death, burial, and resurrection and was the NORM for the Early Church, I get another guy claiming that the Didache supports pouring.

And I looked it up. It does no such thing. The writer tells those administering baptism that they are to find "running water" and baptize there (i.e., a river). Pouring is only an allowance when the running water is not available.

The sad part is how Latinized the Eastern Catholics have become. When I joined the Byzantines in 2001, I was amazed to see my first infant baptism where Fr. Mike dipped that kid in the font - nekkid!!! He was kidding with me later in the sacristy (I was an altar server) about how slippery the oil makes the babies and how he has to get a good grip on them.

Now the priest there pours a bit of water over the head and that's it. (I can't say how glad I am that this is no longer my parish!).

I wonder if there will ever be a reunion? All people seem to want to do is ignore facts, dig their heels in, and ignore any calls for change. Even their popes have not been able to make them stop holding hands during the Our Father.

Gracious!

Oh, one other thing.....if I do ever get home to Orthodoxy, I want to be baptized IN THE CHURCH. Am I wrong to want this? I also feel a need to make a life confession. Y'all keep praying for me.

 

[Light of the East]

Hmmmmm...............try as I might, I cannot get the picture to post.

 

[prodromos]

Oh, one other thing.....if I do ever get home to Orthodoxy, I want to be baptized IN THE CHURCH. Am I wrong to want this? I also feel a need to make a life confession. Y'all keep praying for me.

Just as long as it isn't done with you being 'nekkid'

 

[Andy centek]

Having a bit of a discussion with a Roman apologist about baptism. First thing I have to put up with is this:

https://chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/8631243_orig.jpg

So Jesus went down in to a river to have a clam shell full of water poured over His head. Sheeesh!!!

Then, after I make the case that proper baptism (i.e., immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is a very important picture of our death, burial, and resurrection and was the NORM for the Early Church, I get another guy claiming that the Didache supports pouring.

And I looked it up. It does no such thing. The writer tells those administering baptism that they are to find "running water" and baptize there (i.e., a river). Pouring is only an allowance when the running water is not available.

The sad part is how Latinized the Eastern Catholics have become. When I joined the Byzantines in 2001, I was amazed to see my first infant baptism where Fr. Mike dipped that kid in the font - nekkid!!! He was kidding with me later in the sacristy (I was an altar server) about how slippery the oil makes the babies and how he has to get a good grip on them.

Now the priest there pours a bit of water over the head and that's it. (I can't say how glad I am that this is no longer my parish!).

I wonder if there will ever be a reunion? All people seem to want to do is ignore facts, dig their heels in, and ignore any calls for change. Even their popes have not been able to make them stop holding hands during the Our Father.

Gracious!

Oh, one other thing.....if I do ever get home to Orthodoxy, I want to be baptized IN THE CHURCH. Am I wrong to want this? I also feel a need to make a life confession. Y'all keep praying for me.

 

[Chesterton]

Hmmmmm...............try as I might, I cannot get the picture to post.

I've had trouble posting pics lately.

 

[prodromos]

I've had trouble posting pics lately.

I can't post pics when I'm using my phone, only with the desktop.

 

[Chesterton]

I can't post pics when I'm using my phone, only with the desktop.

I only use a desktop, and CF won't let any kind of pic post yesterday or today. Videos yes, but not pics.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Having a bit of a discussion with a Roman apologist about baptism. First thing I have to put up with is this:

https://chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/8631243_orig.jpg

So Jesus went down in to a river to have a clam shell full of water poured over His head. Sheeesh!!!

Then, after I make the case that proper baptism (i.e., immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is a very important picture of our death, burial, and resurrection and was the NORM for the Early Church, I get another guy claiming that the Didache supports pouring.

And I looked it up. It does no such thing. The writer tells those administering baptism that they are to find "running water" and baptize there (i.e., a river). Pouring is only an allowance when the running water is not available.

The sad part is how Latinized the Eastern Catholics have become. When I joined the Byzantines in 2001, I was amazed to see my first infant baptism where Fr. Mike dipped that kid in the font - nekkid!!! He was kidding with me later in the sacristy (I was an altar server) about how slippery the oil makes the babies and how he has to get a good grip on them.

Now the priest there pours a bit of water over the head and that's it. (I can't say how glad I am that this is no longer my parish!).

I wonder if there will ever be a reunion? All people seem to want to do is ignore facts, dig their heels in, and ignore any calls for change. Even their popes have not been able to make them stop holding hands during the Our Father.

Gracious!

Oh, one other thing.....if I do ever get home to Orthodoxy, I want to be baptized IN THE CHURCH. Am I wrong to want this? I also feel a need to make a life confession. Y'all keep praying for me.

pouring is permitted if there isn't enough water for immersion. you are not wrong to want baptism, but should do what your priest and bishop say to do. it is not canonically wrong to be received by chrismation either.

and there might be reunion some day (God can work miracles), but Rome would have a lot of heresy to get rid of.

 

[Andy centek]

BLESSSINGS:

WATER BAPTISM​

As for the water baptism. It is much better to see what the scripture says about this rather than what man thinks it should be. Jesus never taught the Gentile world to water baptize anyone. Ha, yes that right. Let me proceed using scirptures to show this clearly.

The first water baptism in the SO-CALLED, New Testament was with John the Baptist.

John 1:19-23 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who are You?

And He confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

And they asked him, Who then are You? Are You Elias? And He said, I am not. Are You that prophet? And He answered, No.

Mat 3:13 17 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.


But John forbi him, saying, I have need to be baptized of You, and You come to me?

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it nesesary for Us to fulflil all righteousness. Then he suffered Him.

And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Notice closely what is said here and why. Jesus told John that He had to baptism Him for righteousness sake. He did not baptize Him for confession to Himself or His Father to be so-called spiritually saved.

So how then do men justify water baptism? The falsely say it shows ones believe in Jesus and thus brings spiritual salvation. Do the scirpture ever say that? No, no where.

Then said they unto Him, Who are You? That we may give an answer to them that sent us. What say You of Yourself?

He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Who then was John water baptizing? He was baptizing the Jews of Judeah. Notice who they ask Him if He was, first, Esaias. They believed in reincarnation. This is seen in other scriptures as well.

Mat 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judeah, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

1Co_1:17 For Christ sent Me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Do he preachers today know more than Paul did? Hardly. It makes for a good show for those who do not know better.It also makes for a sad ending for those who are taken in by it.

Then the Catholic church teaches that a baby must be baptized in case they die, or the will go to hell! My earthly father had first hand experience with this. I has a Lutheran Pastor living next door to me once that thought the same thing.

How sad that such belief is in the churches today. Each however will be dealt with by that which they believe.

What has been written here in this short writing should be plain enough for the reader to understand the water bapism being taught in today's groups. I do not say churches, for there is only One true church, the Body of Christ; and He is the head of it. not man.

Andy Centek

 

[ArmyMatt]

we justify water baptism for Gentiles because it was how St Philip received the Ethiopian eunuch, how Lydia was received.

and we're not Roman Catholic, so bringing their errors up on here is silly.

 

[Lukaris]

Baptism was later to the Gentiles.

The Acts of the Apostles 10:44-48.

 

[prodromos]

BLESSSINGS:

WATER BAPTISM​

As for the water baptism. It is much better to see what the scripture says about this rather than what man thinks it should be. Jesus never taught the Gentile world to water baptize anyone. Ha, yes that right. Let me proceed using scirptures to show this clearly.

The first water baptism in the SO-CALLED, New Testament was with John the Baptist.

John 1:19-23 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who are You?

And He confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

And they asked him, Who then are You? Are You Elias? And He said, I am not. Are You that prophet? And He answered, No.

Mat 3:13 17 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.


But John forbi him, saying, I have need to be baptized of You, and You come to me?

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it nesesary for Us to fulflil all righteousness. Then he suffered Him.

And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Notice closely what is said here and why. Jesus told John that He had to baptism Him for righteousness sake. He did not baptize Him for confession to Himself or His Father to be so-called spiritually saved.

So how then do men justify water baptism? The falsely say it shows ones believe in Jesus and thus brings spiritual salvation. Do the scirpture ever say that? No, no where.

Then said they unto Him, Who are You? That we may give an answer to them that sent us. What say You of Yourself?

He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Who then was John water baptizing? He was baptizing the Jews of Judeah. Notice who they ask Him if He was, first, Esaias. They believed in reincarnation. This is seen in other scriptures as well.

Mat 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judeah, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

1Co_1:17 For Christ sent Me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Do he preachers today know more than Paul did? Hardly. It makes for a good show for those who do not know better.It also makes for a sad ending for those who are taken in by it.

Then the Catholic church teaches that a baby must be baptized in case they die, or the will go to hell! My earthly father had first hand experience with this. I has a Lutheran Pastor living next door to me once that thought the same thing.

How sad that such belief is in the churches today. Each however will be dealt with by that which they believe.

What has been written here in this short writing should be plain enough for the reader to understand the water bapism being taught in today's groups. I do not say churches, for there is only One true church, the Body of Christ; and He is the head of it. not man.

Andy Centek

Hi Andy and welcome to "The Ancient Way".
Please note that you are not permitted to post anything contrary to the Eastern Orthodox faith in this subforum. If you do wish to debate, you may start a thread in the St Justin Martyr subforum.

 

[Light of the East]

BLESSINGS:

WATER BAPTISM​

As for the water baptism. It is much better to see what the scripture says about this rather than what man thinks it should be. Jesus never taught the Gentile world to water baptize anyone. Ha, yes that right. Let me proceed using scriptures to show this clearly.

Thank you for your commentary. It appears that you are one of those people who holds to what your particular denomination or assembly teaches rather than going back into Christian history (and the Bible) to see what really is.

As was mentioned earlier, Acts 2 shows water baptism being administered to an Ethopian (a Gentile, in other words). So your objection is really nullified by that. We also see in the Early Church in the Didache of the Apostles an instruction on how to water baptize. This is a writing from someone who learned directly from the Apostles (or actually may have been one of the Apostles). Either way, it is early in the Christian faith and shows that the Apostles taught water baptism to all who would enter the Church.

The first water baptism in the SO-CALLED, New Testament was with John the Baptist.

John 1:19-23 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who are You?

And He confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

And they asked him, Who then are You? Are You Elias? And He said, I am not. Are You that prophet? And He answered, No.

Mat 3:13 17 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.


But John forbi him, saying, I have need to be baptized of You, and You come to me?

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it nesesary for Us to fulflil all righteousness. Then he suffered Him.

And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Notice closely what is said here and why. Jesus told John that He had to baptism Him for righteousness sake. He did not baptize Him for confession to Himself or His Father to be so-called spiritually saved.

So how then do men justify water baptism? They falsely say it shows ones believe in Jesus and thus brings spiritual salvation. Do the scripture ever say that? No, no where.

If I have understood you correctly, we agree here. Baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2: 12) as the covenant-making ritual of the New Covenant. It shows the death, burial, and resurrection of the sinner in His union with Christ's death, burial, and Resurrection. Every covenant has a covenant making ritual which both parties go through. Our part as sinners is to be baptized into the covenant.

Then said they unto Him, Who are You? That we may give an answer to them that sent us. What say You of Yourself?

He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Who then was John water baptizing? He was baptizing the Jews of Judeah. Notice who they ask Him if He was, first, Esaias. They believed in reincarnation. This is seen in other scriptures as well.

I doubt that. I think you are reading into the text.

Mat 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judeah, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

1Co_1:17 For Christ sent Me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

This is a common red herring that Protestants bring up when baptism is mentioned as essential for the new life. You are c

Do he preachers today know more than Paul did? Hardly. It makes for a good show for those who do not know better.It also makes for a sad ending for those who are taken in by it.

Then the Catholic church teaches that a baby must be baptized in case they die, or the will go to hell! My earthly father had first hand experience with this. I has a Lutheran Pastor living next door to me once that thought the same thing.

How sad that such belief is in the churches today. Each however will be dealt with by that which they believe.

What has been written here in this short writing should be plain enough for the reader to understand the water bapism being taught in today's groups. I do not say churches, for there is only One true church, the Body of Christ; and He is the head of it. not man.

Andy Centek[/QUOTE]

 

[gzt]

It's normative to accept Catholic baptisms, especially in the Russian church, and especially with somebody who is in the eastern rite. You should of course obey what your own priest says, but frankly it's problematic to baptize converting Catholics.

 

[prodromos]

Why is repeating the whole form of the baptism with grace problematic? By Chrismating, we are not accepting that their former baptism was a real, Grace filled sacrament of the Church. We are simply recognising that the form was correct.

 

[ArmyMatt]

technically, there are many ways to receive someone when looking at the history of the Church. baptism, chrismation, anointing on the forehead, confession of faith, revesting are all ways to receive someone. all are valid in the eyes of the Church no matter how Cyprianic (baptize everyone) or Augustinian (take into account what they were beforehand) the bishop or priest is. just do what they say and don't worry about how anyone else came into the Church. just thank God they are there.

 

[Hermit76]

Coming from Protestantism my wife and I requested to be baptized. I understand your desire to do so.

 

[buzuxi02]

Andy Centek, welcome to TAW.
But sorry because you are wrong. Matthew 28:19 makes clear to baptise the Goyim.

The Greek word used is έθνη. Which means gentiles. In English the word "ethnic" is derived from it as is nationality/nation.

The normative practise for Christian baptism from the time of Pentecost is Triple immersion. Single immersion is forbidden by the canons as an anomaly.