Rioters should be charged with murder

[SummerMadness]

Yes... he was in the group where the women got shot. In MAGA gear.

That doesn't sound like he was rioting, you just said he was recording. If he was rioting, he needs to be charged too.

 

[gaara4158]

Nothing could illustrate the respective credibility or lack of same of the two sides than comparing these two events.

With the AntifaBLM riots, a police officer was deemed to be a murder because of an unintentional death that occurred during the restraining of a criminal and partially because of other medical problems. In the other event, the Washington DC incident saw a citizen, not a terrorist, randomly chosen and then deliberately shot to death by a police officer or guard who took his time drawing a bead on his intended victim.

Not surprisingly, we then get people accusing the victim in the latter case of having deserved death while the people who were responsible for a billion dollars of damage in 30 cities and the deaths of over 20 people last summer are supposed to be seen as peaceful and, of course, justified.

You’re comparing a nationwide event taking place over the course of eight months to a single terrorist attack taking place over the course of a single afternoon. If anyone’s grotesquely oversimplifying the nature of each of these events in order to make the one you support look better in comparison, it’s you.

 

[gaara4158]

What about the 15-20 who died during riots over the summer?

Are we also charging the millions who were involved in those riots?

Or will we be hearing the old "a few bad actors" line?

Many of those people were black-bagged and kidnapped by badgeless, unmarked federal officers, a tactic that was palpably absent this past Wednesday.

 

[timothyu]

Many of those people were black-bagged and kidnapped by badgeless, unmarked federal officers, a tactic that was palpably absent this past Wednesday.

Isn't that because the protesters went home after a couple of hours rather than hang around for five days giving the baggers a chance to organize?

 

[timothyu]

That doesn't sound like he was rioting, you just said he was recording.

I guess that applies to most of them recording on their phones as they went through the capital. An unorganised tour i guess whose only crime was perhaps filming without media credentials?

 

[gaara4158]

Isn't that because the protesters went home after a couple of hours rather than hang around for five days giving the baggers a chance to organize?

Suddenly context is important? Didn’t seem so important a moment ago when you decided to bring up the casualties occurring at the fringes of the BLM movement.

 

[timothyu]

Didn’t seem so important a moment ago when you decided to bring up the casualties occurring at the fringes of the BLM movement.

I was asked to. Perhaps both sides, instead of looking for an enemy, should get together and look out fr the real threat that is coming.

 

[gaara4158]

I was asked to. Perhaps both sides, instead of looking for an enemy, should get together and look out fr the real threat that is coming.

Class solidarity would be amazing, I agree, but I’m not going to join you in both-sidesing Wednesday’s attacks with the BLM movement. They are not the same.

 

[timothyu]

They are not the same.

Any insurrection is the same.

 

[NotreDame]

A police officer and a terrorist were killed in the attack on the Capitol. The rioters charged with felonies should be charged for the deaths of these people. If a getaway driver can be charged with the deaths of security officers during a bank robbery, these thugs should be treated the exact same way.

Murder can be defined as intentionally killing a human being, (with premeditation in some jurisdictions), and/or knowingly and intentionally killing a human being. It can’t be said the rioters had the intent, premeditation, to kill by their act of forcing entry, or knowingly killed someone by their mere act of being part of a mass of humanity forcing entry. For example, John, who was the last person to enter with the sea of humanity, can’t be said to have committed murder on the basis someone was killed in an entirely different part of the building by someone else who was part of the mob who entered.

Your getaway drive for a bank robbery example is charged under the felony murder theory/law, which says while engaged in a felony, and someone dies, he/she is culpable of murder, and/or aiding and inducing murder. However, your getaway driver for the bank robbery example has an important nexus that’s missing from the mob example, specifically the getaway driver is directly involved and connected to the people committing the felony, i.e. they are in league together, the getaway driver knows what’s going on, is directly involved in the burglary, with those committing the burglary, as the driver is providing them a means of escape for the felony.

The individual mob member who killed the officer cannot be said to be similarly connected to the 100th person to enter the building, the two being strangers, not in league with each other, the 100th person having no idea the stranger mob member is about to kill anyone.

It is untenable to charge, generally, people belonging to the mob with murder.

 

[gaara4158]

Any insurrection is the same.

No, it’s not. Context always matters. Not that BLM in even the remotest sense constitutes an insurrection.

 

[timothyu]

Not that BLM in even the remotest sense constitutes an insurrection.

Tell that to the folks still trying to get restitution for the damage done to property and livelihoods. Billions go to BLM and disappear while none of it will ever go to those people. But that is fair while others things are not I suppose. People are just saying regardless of side, that their style of bad is not as bad as others which makes the whole game moot.

 

[NotreDame]

If the getaway driver is not there, it does not mean the robbery would not occur. It's similar to two people breaking into a home, one guy kills the homeowner, both of them get charged with murder, despite the other guy not carrying a gun or knowing his accomplice had a gun.

Sure, but both are engaged in the same felony conduct, together, that can be directly traced to the murder, the act of both breaking and entering into a home, the felonious act of burglary committed by both, is traced to the murder.

The 100th mob member’s act of entering the Capitol building cannot be traced directly to or closely connected with the murder of a capital police officer by some other mob member who is not in league with, not associated with, it working with, not in tandem with, or even knows the other murderous mob person to exist.

A person in a bank and committing the felony act of passing counterfeit money to the teller at the same time a group of men rush in, shoot another teller, take money, and run off, is not culpable of felony murder. The felony conduct of passing counterfeit money is not directly related to or traceable to the death of the other teller.

 

[Philip_B]

First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.​

Clearly I speak as an outsider, however in reality it did not look much worse than any number of student demonstrations. There is a clear question of trespass, though I am sure to hear people tell me it is the people's house. The real question is how did they get in. I really wonder why there was not more security over the heart of government, especially in the context of a known and planned rally not to far away, when what was going on in the house was the subject of much interest to those at the rally.

Many of us in other parts of the free world envy you 1st Amendment. You have a sure and secure base to claim the rights of free speech, free press, and freedom of assembly. It seemed to me that the group of protesters who scaled the wall and sought entry had no expectation of success and had no plan as to what to do next. I urge you to value and protect your rights, and to demand that those in authority protect the institutions that make and administer your laws.

 

[NotreDame]

The size of the group is not what matters, it's whether the individuals knew their actions may result in death or bodily injury. Attacking police officers and attacking government officials certainly falls into that category. Will they be charged, probably not, but they should be charged.

I found this article here discussing the topic: Explainer: What crimes can the U.S. Capitol rioters be charged with?

Well, the article has lawyers, prosecutors, primarily throwing shade on your idea, except for one who made the neutral statement felony murder is “always” in play for situations as this one. Otherwise, some said as I did, a lack of knowledge or proving knowledge on behalf of those who comprised a mob of this size is almost impossible, if not impossible.

Your idea of charging the mob, those who were present as part the sea of humanity who entered, is untenable.

Your idea approaches being tenable for those people physically present with the individual mob member who killed the officer. Although, more facts are needed to make those people culpable under felony murder.

 

[NotreDame]

Yet in being free and fair he was lambasted for following natural procedure allowed by constitution to pursue any avenue available to him until the voter at 4 am the other day at which time, having run the full gambit available to him, he accepted defeat. You call the reaction to following through a natural process free and fair?
But for five years and even now afterwards he is still being harassed. There is more to this than losing an election considering the length of time it has been going on. \

I have no vested interest either way but those taking sides need to stop and see why they are being used as a distraction to what is coming your way.

Yet in being free and fair he was lambasted for following natural procedure allowed by constitution to pursue any avenue available to him until

The basis of the criticism was not the above, but the complete lack of any evidentiary merit to his lawsuits, a lack of evidence presented to the courts, and tenuous legal claims.

 

[gaara4158]

Tell that to the folks still trying to get restitution for the damage done to property and livelihoods. Billions go to BLM and disappear while none of it will ever go to those people. But that is fair while others things are not I suppose. People are just saying regardless of side, that their style of bad is not as bad as others which makes the whole game moot.

I don’t think you know what insurrection is, and I don’t think you can back up this claim of billions of dollars disappearing into BLM, none of it going to settlements.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Your idea of charging the mob, those who were present as part the sea of humanity who entered, is untenable.

And yet there is no problem in the Trump base in charging each and every single Muslim a terrorist.

And yet there is no problem in the Trump base in charging each and every person protesting police brutality a rioter and thug.

 

[timothyu]

If there were a true insurrection they would have overrun the White House and burned it down like the Canadians did 200 years ago thus winning the war by being king of the ultimate hill, before going home for the evening to watch the hockey game.

 

[timothyu]

and I don’t think you can back up this claim of billions of dollars disappearing into BLM,

The claim is sound according to the media who followed the paper trail to the election, but if you know where it really went I'll be glad to spread the good news. No reason your word shouldn't be as good as theirs. BTW it appears the taxpayer will be on the hook for damages rather than those who instigated the riots so I guess it all works out well.