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Righteousness exalts a nation

Discussion in 'Current News & Events (Articles Required)' started by dysert, Jun 12, 2012.

  1. dysert

    dysert Member

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    This post isn't directed towards anyone, but I just want to go public with a thought I've had for a long time. The USA used to be a great and powerful nation. While compared to some others, it's still a good place to live, but I think we've been going downhill for quite a while now. People will debate issues and ask, "What's wrong if we allow xyz?" Well, we've been allowing many "xyz's" to creep into our society for a long time, and I think that's what has taken us down. Prov. 14:34 says, "Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people." I think today's society is living proof of that.
     
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  2. Respecthelect

    Respecthelect Elder

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    Exactly. And it's time we put an end to the judgement-free-zone that allows evil to prevail. We want as free a government as possible and to achieve that we need to make certain things are taboo.

    Let me ask it this way - why don't many shave the left side of their heads? It's not illegal? There's really no reason not to? The reason is there are social norms that must be adhered to. No law is necessary, the force of subtle scorn and ridicule is more than sufficient to ensure haircuts remain within certain boundary limits. In fact, that force is much more powerful than law. Sure, there are other reasons to have a proper haircut, attracting a mate, etc., but that doesn't explain the vast majority (the young, the old, married, etc.). By far the largest factor is social convention and norms enforced ultimately by pointing, staring, laughing, ridicule and scorn, within the confines of free speech.

    Today's schools teach not to judge. To judge implies applying a punishment, normally by a government. Many will say, but Respecthelect, Jesus said not to judge. I think what he meant was not to throw stones, not to enforce a punishment. He wasn't advocating adultery. If he meant not to judge whether adultery was good or bad, society couldn't function. To judge personally is necessary and is a requirement. To judge whether behavior is biblically or otherwise acceptable, is absolutely fundamental to making things work.

    One wonders why it's OK to laugh at a person who shaved the left side of their head, but not at gays? Why not point and stare at the married man embracing somebody else's wife in the back corner of the local restaurant? We mostly seem free to make fun of fat gluttons? So, why are we letting certain evil-doers get away with it without saying a word?

    Now I'm not necessarily advocating ridicule, derision and scorn, but we all need to start speaking out against bad behavior. Speaking, not acting. I don't want government forcing these rules and certainly not mobs of angry citizens. I'm not advocating gossip and rumor. Simply healthy speech.

    By remaining silent, by twisting Jesus' meaning regarding judging, we enable evil to take over our country. We hand the keys to Satan to write laws codifying evil. This could never happen, if we simply decided judging that it was OK to laugh at gay behavior. We all agree adultery is wrong and unacceptable, so people hide it. At some point they decide it's not worth it. If we spoke a word or even gave a look that said, we don't accept this evil behavior.

    It's a fine line, deciding a behavior is wrong and unacceptable and moving to actions and laws to stop it. Look at gluttony. The New York law against soda crossed the line from judging bad behavior to making a law. Conservatives don't like the law or the glutton, but oddly liberals like the law. They are fine judging obesity, but not gays?

    Proverbs has it exactly correct. Righteousness exalts some nation, but we are letting it slip away. Sin is up and coming and we are already paying the price of reproach by becoming the tail and not the head. It's easily turned around, though. As easy as calling evil, evil.

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    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
  3. Life2Christ

    Life2Christ Guest

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    The USA was an economic powerhouse where its greatest, most prolific years were between 1800 - 1970. Slave and immigrant labor coupled with the wealth of a minority of families helped America to become the #1 nation.

    When civil rights came into play, the game changed. We are being tested as a nation. It is not about wealth and being a powerhouse, its about how we can live together as a people (not very well apparently).

    This is our great challenge. We have no more free slave labor to make buildings and railroads. The poor immigrants who come here are not wanted. So what do we have to make America great?

    I think we are at a crossroads where we need unifcation as a country instead of every man for himself.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2012
  4. Life2Christ

    Life2Christ Guest

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    Being gay is not a cause for rising healthcare costs. The soda law was a long time coming. A McDonald's small soda used to a large, once upon a time. By the way, I am an East Coat liberal.
     
  5. WinBySurrender

    WinBySurrender Well-Known Member

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    Gee, there's a big surprise! ;)
     
  6. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post. Just preached a sermon on this last week. The sad thing, as witnessed on this board DAILY, is that what is supposed to be the Church, is exalting what God says is sin. And God forgive me if anything I've ever said has been misconstrued that way.

    But liberal "values" have consumed this nation and they are now infiltrating the Church.

    Even so, Come Lord Jesus.
     
  7. Life2Christ

    Life2Christ Guest

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    If liberal values are consuming the nation, then shady pastors (Worley, Dollar, Jones) are eating the church alive like a malignant tumor. What the American church is exporting overseas is disgraceful.
     
  8. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    Hallelujah. The world screams out Matthew 7:1 and the Church acts like there isn't a Matthew 7:2-5 pointing out that it's not a prohibition against judging, but God showing us HOW to righteously judge.

    You can't make a decision about anything without passing judgment.

    They tell you that you can't judge them. Well guess what? They are hypocrites because they just judged you.

    No decisions are made without passing judgment.
     
  9. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    And I agree with this too. Like the liberalism on this board, you got folks preaching their version of the word instead of God's version.

    You got a lot of folks reading what other men think and then coming back trying to make God's word say something that the words on the page don't say.

    I've been a lot of places in the world. And if the liberals on this board and in this country tried to say or teach this stuff in those churches, they would be put out.
     
  10. dbcsf

    dbcsf Guest

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    I love respecttheelect's comment about social values vs. the law. I wish also we had more social values and fewer laws.

    Generally, I believe each generation has to fight this fight. In the time of Socrates the older people were saying the same things. They remembered the "better time", the respect, the good behavior, etc. The youth, liberals, etc. were all ruining things.

    I would disagree that America's golden years started in 1800. We were always getting better, sure. But it didn't get really good for the majority of people until the 1950's. Economically we are still doing quite well. While it is true that we are no longer the economic powerhouse we once were, most people do have access to an awful lot of stuff we lacked even then.

    So, comparing ourselves to the entire world, yeah, we are slipping. But, comparing ourselves to ourselves at our peak - I think we are still doing extremely well (assuming we get over the current economic recession, which we will).

    I am very convinced that past generations were no more "Christian" than the current one. We did butcher 90% of the indigenous people back in our glory days. Would Jesus have approved? We did engage in all kinds of war. We did enslave an entire race of people. We have raped the land, cut over 90% of the trees, dug up entire mountains, polluted all the lakes and rivers, etc. God did tell us to manage his creation. Have our ancestors managed it well? From where I sit it could be argued that they took whatever they could get their greedy hands on with no thought of sharing with each other, or with the generations which were to follow.

    It has to be said that they did go to church a lot, and did try to love each other within the bounds of acceptable social custom. While killing an Indian, whipping a slave or dumping your crud into a nearby river was considered ok, caring for an orphan or a widow was also expected. It is fair to say that our ancestors meant well, but they were bigger sinners by far than the current generation.

    Capitalism (although likely the best option for our economy) is still very cruel if practiced without a moral outlook. It necessitates legal intervention, to prevent the few from abusing the rest of us.

    I am all for being a patriotic American. We have a great country. There is more upward mobility here even in a recession than in most of the world. We still have tons of freedom. But, lets not be blind. We did not get here by praising Jesus. We got to be a powerhouse in the first place by practicing a lot of evil. I am not saying that other countries are any better, or worse. We are what we are, and this generation is no different than the last.
     
  11. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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    I'm not sure if there has been a time in our nations history where we could be considered a "righteous nation". Many self righteous people have made this claim, maybe, but when our nation sanction the cruelty which it inflicted on the American Indian and black slaves, then it is hard to see how God can show mercy on those who failed to show mercy.
     
  12. Respecthelect

    Respecthelect Elder

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    We enslaved an entire race? What race is that, African American's? Today Africa has almost exactly one billion African's living there, while America has less than forty million African (American's) or about four percent (4%). If America enslaved the entire race, how did Africa get so many African's living there?

    Did we cut down some trees? I hope so. Can I walk outside almost anywhere in America and enjoy the shade of a tree? I can. Did America rape the land? Give me a break, what does that even mean? Raising images of you humping a gopher hole doesn't advance your argument. And even if you did, what harm to the land? That sort of imagery has no place on this forum anyway. Jesus said we'd move mountains and we have. So what? Polluted "all" the lakes and rivers? I can't think of a lake or river in the country I wouldn't boat, fish or even swim in. I wouldn't go near the Mekong river in Cambodia, they don't have sewage treatment like we do. I assume other third world water is similar.

    Raising the environment to some sort of exalted status is well within Satan's agenda. He wants the world to return to its "natural" state too. A world without humans is a shared goal of Satan and the liberal left.

    America killed surprisingly few Indians. European diseases killed many more. America always welcomed the Indian. As today, there are certain education and traditions that are expected. Scalping your neighbor for building a fence is still frowned upon. I'm not sure what self-loathing the NEA (National Education Association) is teaching, but our forefathers did an awesome job settling this country, with or without Indian help.

    Our forefathers also planted the seeds to eliminate slavery through the Declaration of Independence. Conservative Republican Abraham Lincoln spilled the blood of the nation to see them freed. What other nation could escape the cycle of slavery on their own? Even the great and mighty Egypt couldn't do it. Only the United States of America spreads freedom around the world.

    Most of the things you list as evils are good and the things you exalt, Satan also exalts. God said scratch in the Earth in Genesis, so we dig mines, wells and farm. God gave us dominion, so we raise livestock and divert rivers to use every drop. We make more use out of the land with less manpower than anyone could imagine in 1870.

    The thing America did have, that we seem to have lost, is the ability to intimidate evil. Gays kept it to themselves. Adulterers are still somewhat embarrassed, but nothing like they were in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. I'm no prude, but right is right and wrong is wrong and we need to say so.

    .
     
  13. Life2Christ

    Life2Christ Guest

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    Not an entire race but 4 million Africans who were moved over the Atlantic Ocean in addition to the ones that were bred like farm animals after slavery was outlawed. Who else plowed the fields, built housing, worked the railroads, cleaned homes, raised kids, while everyone else was out building wealth?



    You mean Europeans.

    Indians were not able to help settle this country since they had diseases and had to distance themselves from the incoming populace. Besides, *they* were already settled.
     
  14. Respecthelect

    Respecthelect Elder

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    Really? Because the North did not have slavery and yet they had much more wealth? The North had the buildings, the roads, most of the railroads. In short, more wealth was produced by incentivizing people vs enslaving them - much more. Slavery was little benefit to the South. They would've been way richer without it.

    If the South had paid the slaves, they would have to ask for their money back. The South had more resources, better weather and fewer obstacles. The South should've been the center of trade and commerce. But instead, the South lagged, mostly due to slavery.

    Nobody wants to be a slave and nobody in America or under America's authority is a slave. However, most of our ancestors were slaves at one time. If Europeans are the descendants of the ten tribes of Israel as many believe, then we were all slaves at one time. How would it be if Blacks were never slaves, but whites were (in Egypt). Now the playing field is level. All our ancestors were slaves. Can we move on now?

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  15. Life2Christ

    Life2Christ Guest

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    I'd like to move on but America is suffering its fate from the African slave trade and slave breeding, after the trade became illegal. Everyone would like to move on but remember civil right for blacks didn't exist until the 1960's (100 years AFTER slavery ended).

    Many African-Americans have displaced families because the families were forcibly broken up during slave breeding and traded off at will of their masters.

    Other slaves in history had the option of buying their freedom, something African-Americans lost in America after the 1700's.

    The North DID have slaves (for a while) but that ended a lot sooner.

    Everyone would like to move on, but God gave us over to the legacy we created; the legacy of the drastic racial disparities in this country.

    Today's communities had nothing to do with slavery or the slave trade but the problems still exist and nobody is happy because of it. Can we move on? Who knows.
     
  16. Respecthelect

    Respecthelect Elder

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    Yes, my ancestors were slaves too. For four hundred years, my people suffered. They were whipped, beaten and traded like cattle. Woe is me. I can't get over it. Please give me reparations?
     
  17. dbcsf

    dbcsf Guest

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    In terms of pollution, you are mistaken. Lake Erie, the Potomac, the Delaware. I have swam in and gotten sick from many rivers and lakes. I am an avid backpacker, hiker, canoeist and outdoorsman. I always attempt to purify my water before drinking it.

    What of the Love canal, all the other superfund sites? The Colorado river is now damaging the Gulf of California due to its elevated salinity secondary to the fact that most of the water now supports Phoenix, Las Vegas and southern California. The riparian area south of the Hoover dam is virtually gone. Nearly 100% of the animals which used to live off the water of the Colorado are gone. The lower river is a glorified canal. What about Los Angeles - can anyone breathe the air?

    I could go on for hours about how we have damaged our environment. God created it. How is it godly for us to treat our environment so poorly? God created it and called it good. We trash it and say thank you?

    As Americans, we are doing much better now than we have in the past. We are still polluting. We are cleaning up a lot of the mess. From what I have heard the fish in Lake Erie will live. The Potomac is no longer flammable. I still would not recommend drinking the water in the Delaware. Swimming, fine.

    Is it a sin to pollute? For me it is, for you not so much. Fine. I agree that improving our lifestyle is generally a good thing. I would prefer we did not wipe out entire species of plants and animals in the process.

    I believe God does want us to manage the planet in an orderly and respectable fashion. The original people who started the timber industry did not replant. It was only after the trees were running out that the idea to replant was born.

    They did better than China, who did not replant. China now has to import their wood.

    Concerning Indians. They once owned this land. Now they don't. Most died. While it is true that most died from disease, it is also true that we infected them. And it is known that we infected them on purpose, many times. There have been at least 40 wars and endless smaller conflicts.

    The survivors are on reservations. Many are miserable. Many are alcoholics. Many do not graduate from school. Some have a good lifestyle now that they are offering gambling to their white neighbors - kind of a payback if you ask me (I do not have a high opinion of gambling).

    Concerning slavery. I agree that our forefathers at least left the opportunity for us to get them freed. That is a win. I was not talking about the world population of Africans, just the vast majority living in the U.S. which our ancestors enslaved. Our ancestors were not in a position to enslave all of Africa.

    The people who owned them sinned to a far greater degree than any group of gay supporters walking in some parade someplace, or mouthing off on some talk show. They actually quoted the bible and gave sermons on how slavery was justified by God.

    We all know what the bible says about Christians who call themselves leaders and lead their followers astray. How does that compare to some non-Christian supporter of a gay lifestyle speaking his mind? I am not in favor of encouraging non-biblical behavior. But, there is a difference between a non-Christian speaking his or her mind vs. a Christian preaching, believing and acting in a manner which is torturing and killing 4 million people.

    I believe the original concept put forward was the idea that righteous behavior on the part of the citizens of a nation will result in economic and political power for that nation.

    Do you believe that Americans used to be more righteous than currently? And, do you believe America gained economic and political power due to the righteousness of its citizens?

    I do not believe that early Americans were more righteous than us for the reasons mentioned above. Their sins may have been different, but they committed them. Many of their sins were much worse.

    We all agree that the U.S. has been an international powerhouse in the past. We all agree that Americans past and present have had many wonderful economic and political opportunities which most people of the world have not been afforded.

    I agree further that social pressure would encourage people to hold their tongues, especially concerning lifestyle choices and behaviors which are clearly non-biblical. We should strive to improve our behavior. Every generation of people should keep trying.

    Where we disagree is that the behavior of our ancestors had anything to do with our economic and/or political success.

    The U.S. came filled with wonderful resources, precious metals, lumber, soil for farming, water, rivers for transportation and later hydroelectric power. What the U.S. lacked was anything in the way of a powerful indigenous population capable of defending their land and resources.

    We moved in, conquered them and have been living high on the hog on what was originally their land and resources ever since. It was not our righteous behavior but our capitalistic ambition which got the job done for us. We did not wait for God to bless us, we blessed ourselves.

    Righteous behavior does not have an effect on political or economic blessings from God primarily because it is a myth. If ever there was a nation of people who actually did act in a righteous fashion, we could talk.
     
  18. Respecthelect

    Respecthelect Elder

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    I believe Satan twisted the scripture of showing mercy by not killing the sinner, into not making judgements at all. We need to make judgements. We ate from the tree. We all know right from wrong. We will be judged ourselves, so we need to carefully evaluate right and wrong (tempered by mercy, of course). We've lost our ability to point, stare, laugh-at and/or ridicule evil.

    Yes, America's blessings directly depend on our adherence to God's laws regarding nations. It doesn't mean our government needs to pass laws to force biblical compliance. In fact, the opposite is true. Only through free will can we demonstrate righteousness. Only through the force of righteous convention can we get back on track. That means we need to be able to call out evil - to make judgements about right and wrong and be free to express them.

    Regarding the so called crimes against mother nature, we'll have to agree to disagree. I swam in most of the Great Lakes and I'd be pleased to do so again. The enviro-nazis greatly overstate their case to the point they lose credibility. Clean enough is clean enough. Freedom ranks high on my scale and preventing anyone from using water is too restrictive. It is right and proper we don't waste a drop of the Colorado river. We use it over and over, as we should. Why waste a drop pouring it into the salty sea when farmers and industry need it?

    Our forefathers left us the greatest country on earth. The greatest country that's ever been. They fought for freedom and they scratched in the ground. Now we are the shining city. We can continue to advance or we can spend our inheritance like spoiled children. We can build or we can languish. We can worship God or we can worship mother nature. I choose God. Who is with me?

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  19. DesertScroll

    DesertScroll Member

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    I think we agree, but let me phrase it in a different way.

    The United States is not a righteous nation. One cannot be righteous without Jesus... and Jesus isn't anywhere in the government (nor could it... it is Caesar Matt 22:21).

    But there have been many righteous people living in the US... followers of Christ. Under their influence many great and good things have happened. In spite of their influence many bad things have happened.

    As Christian influence has waned so to has the greatness of the US. But I also know it is for a purpose, God drove Lot out of Sodom before he destroyed it.
     
  20. dysert

    dysert Member

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    That's a nice, succinct way of putting it. And I obviously agree. The country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Now it seems our foundation (if we still have one) is crumbling.
     
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