Riddle me this...

[12volt_man]

You can say that I'm not a true Christian if you want but I think there's more than one path to God.

Under the posting rules of CF, I'm not allowed to say whether you're not a "true Christian" or not, but at the very least, you're a Christian who's beliefs are at odds with Christianity and the teachings of Christ.

I think that Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, atheists etc will all be with God if they lead a good life. And don't tell me that the only "good life" is through God.

Why do you believe that Jesus died?

Do you believe that He was deluded when He told us that He was the only way to God?

Can you show us anywhere in scripture where we see that we are saved by any means other than Christ's atonement?

 

[Stavo]

I believe Jesus died because he loved humanity.

If you think that the teachings of Christ were for any other reason than to guide us to respect and love each other then I think you're the deluded one.

If to be a Christian is to condemn all non-Chrisitians to hell than so be it, but I'll not be a part of that line of thinking.

I think a more well-rounded view of the world is needed. I have a friend who is 83 years old. She has been a Christian (Plymouth Brethren) all her life, helping drug-addicts and people who have lost their way. This is what I think Christianity is all about. Actions not semantics.

Thanks for the debate guys. This is the last I'll say on the matter.

 

[Reformationist]

A thought experiment:

Who is the more righteous person...

1) The one who accepts the Christian God out of fear for eternal hell and does no evil.

2) The person who knows no religion and despite human nature, does good on his own, in the name of no God?

This question is a bit of a strawman as neither option #1 nor option #2 are possible. All people, while in their unglorified state, do evil. That negates the possibility of #1. Good is only possible when done from the proper motive. Therefore, if something is done for any reason other than, ultimately, to glorify God, it is not "good" in the eyes of God. That negates the possibility of #2.

Any other questions?

God bless

 

[talitha]

The only good life is through God - that is, through YAHWEH.

whattayagonnado?

blessings in Christ
tal

 

[12volt_man]

I believe Jesus died because he loved humanity.

I see. How did dying show that He "loved humanity", if the purpose of that death was not to reconcile us to God?

When I love somebody, I usually just send them flowers.

If you think that the teachings of Christ were for any other reason than to guide us to respect and love each other then I think you're the deluded one.

When Jesus said, "You must be born again", what do you think He meant?

When He said that He was the only way of reconciliation between man and God, do you believe that He was just joking?

I see. When Jesus talked about destroying the temple and building it back up, what do you believe He was talking about?

Who does Jesus say is not worthy of Him?

If to be a Christian is to condemn all non-Chrisitians to hell than so be it, but I'll not be a part of that line of thinking.

If you're really a Christian, as you say, then surely you must know that we don't have the authority or perogative to condemn anyone to Hell, right?

I think a more well-rounded view of the world is needed.

So then, if you could have a brainstorming session with Jesus to help Him better get His message out about salvation, what would you suggest to Him?

I have a friend who is 83 years old. She has been a Christian (Plymouth Brethren) all her life, helping drug-addicts and people who have lost their way. This is what I think Christianity is all about. Actions not semantics.

That's great that she wants to help people, but our works can't save us. The Bible tells us this over and over.

Only Christ can save.

 

[mortsmune]

Second person. God loves everyone, and if you live your life doing good then that's what counts.

It's easy to quote scripture to prove a point. You can even quote it to prove two opposing points.

The whole point of Christ's teaching was that we are good to one another. So if someone lives like that how can they be wrong?

The original question was which was more "righteous." The Bible clearly says that none is righteous, no, not one and that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

It is easy to quote a scripture; it is another thing to understand it and interpret it.

The whole point of Christ's life was to die for the redemption of the world, because we have all sinned. Only by faith in Him can we receive His righteousness imputed to us, and only by faith in Him can we stand justified and forgiven. Therefore, the first man was "righteous," not because of the good he did but because in believing in Christ, he received redemption and justification and the righteousness of Christ by grace.

 

[CardinalBaseball]

That was a good post Othniel!

 

[bloodofthelamb12]

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one..." (Romans 3:10-12)

Both of these men are worthy of condemnation, each guilty of sinning against God; the one is spared over the other, not for any righteousness of his own, but because he has accepted Christ's sacrifice.

farewell,
Caleb

 

[Defiance]

theyre here,

I honestly don't think that there would be one. I'm pretty sure that it is written in the Bible that the one who fears is not made perfect (righteous) in love and that perfect love drives away all fear. In other words, person 1 isn't made righteous because of his fear and person 2 can't be because they don't know and don't trust in Jesus.

When we fully trust in Christ Jesus and love Him we are made perfect in God's sight because of the sacrifice that Jesus made. There is an idea of a swap of positions betwen Jeus and us sinners in the Bible that Paul makes clear in his writings, so Jesus takes the punishment of ours sins that we deserve and we inherit His righteoussness. Or, as the Bible says, we become the righteousness of Jesus.

 

[Deb7777]

I say the first person was more righteous in this extreme example because he acknowledges a God, somebody above himself, humility. He honors this God by knowing good will be blessed and evil will be punished so he has great fear to do evil, wisdom. The second person who has a mind, a heart , a soul as the first person has not found God, pride? Not to wonder if there is a being above oneself yet he chooses to do good. Lets say he's the best person on the block, doing good left and right but never gives thanks for his good gifts to the one who should be thanked for all gifts. Whatever good a person can claim, unless he is the creator of that gift, he should always give thanks or risked becoming his own Creator who doesn't have a Heaven to go to or a Hell to worry about, too bad he can't stop his own death, not that omnipotent!

 

[woobadooba]

A thought experiment:



Who is the more righteous person...

1) The one who accepts the Christian God out of fear for eternal hell and does no evil.

2) The person who knows no religion and despite human nature, does good on his own, in the name of no God?

Neither one! Only God is righteous.

 

[MinDach]

Who is the more righteous person

If you are using the Standard that God has lay down then there is NO such righteous person living on this planet, NO NOT ONE. If you want to lay the standard of man, then that would be something different altogether. The Standard of man would be number 2

(2) The person who knows no religion and despite human nature, does good on his own, in the name of no God?)

This is the one where people like to by pass God, and think they will make it in to heaven on there own. This is called good works out side of knowing God. It may make them feel better, but it will not save them. Plus I want to make it very clear to what God I am talking about, Jesus Christ, the first and the last, there is no other.

 

[repentant]

A thought experiment:



Who is the more righteous person...

1) The one who accepts the Christian God out of fear for eternal hell and does no evil.

2) The person who knows no religion and despite human nature, does good on his own, in the name of no God?

1.Well you shouldn't accept the Christian God, or Jesus out of fear for hell, but for love. If someone only believes in Jesus out of fear of going to hell, then he is not practiceing what Jesus taught us. Follow the 10 commandments, And love your neighbor as you would love yourself. You believe in Jesus and follow Him out of love for Him, because He loves us and gave us Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for our salvation,not because you fear hell.

2. If a person does not know religion or never heard of it, this God will judge, but will not punish out of ignorance. Also it is human nature to do good, as that is how God created us. Sinning on the other hand is to despite human nature.

 

[Davis]

Second person. God loves everyone, and if you live your life doing good then that's what counts.

It's easy to quote scripture to prove a point. You can even quote it to prove two opposing points.

The whole point of Christ's teaching was that we are good to one another. So if someone lives like that how can they be wrong?

They can be wrong if they dont except Christ but do good works.

 

[Davis]

I believe that God is forgiving so you're probably right about Hitler, but not about Gandhi.

But I have friends that are great humanitarians. They don't believe in God, but it doesn't mean he doesn't love them. Do you think they'r going to hell if they don't become theists?

And I'm sorry but the WHOLE POINT of Christ's teaching wasn't just to point out the Kingdom of God, it was to teach us how to get there, by loving each other.

Christ said that the only way to the Father was through Him.
Not through loving each other although that was a commandment of Christ, thats not how Christ told us we would get to our Father.

 

[Davis]

What about in the sermon on the mount?

I fail to believe that people are being so one-dimensional.

You can say that I'm not a true Christian if you want but I think there's more than one path to God. I think that Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, atheists etc will all be with God if they lead a good life. And don't tell me that the only "good life" is through God.

But Jesus said that there is only one God.
Jesus said that there is only one way to get to the Father and that is through Him.

So do you go against what Christ says?

 

[heron]

Last night I heard Myles Munroe say that every civilization has a form of religion, even if they've had no contact with other humans...and that religion is man's way of getting a grasp of what he cannot see, and control over what he can see.

Even as a Christian, he included Christianity in the mix of people who add religion into their lives to gain control. We all scramble for rules to create order...it's not necessarily righteousness. Pure living isn't necessarily purity. Generosity doesn't always come from a generous heart.

God is God, with our without our religion.

 

[Phospho]

OK, let's see...

Who is the more righteous person...

1) The one who accepts the Christian God out of fear for eternal hell and does no evil.

2) The person who knows no religion and despite human nature, does good on his own, in the name of no God?

First...whether one accepts God out of love or fear, does not matter, what matters is that they have accepted him. People who turn to God out of fear are no worse, nor any better, than those who simply came to Him after experiencing His great love for them.

Second...if a person "knows no religion" then he cannot do good in the name of God. The aborigine (?) in the deepest, darkest Africa that has never heard the Godpel will be delcared as righteous by his conscience, as Romans states. God has placed the knowledge of right and wrong in everyone...the aborigine knows that having sex with his neighbor's wife is wrong, whether he has heard the Gospel or not. He will be judged by the motives and attitudes of his heart...which gave way to his actions.


I've got one for you...

If God is all powerful as we believe He is, can He make a stone so big and heavy that He can't pick it up?

I'll come back later to see your answers...

Blessings!

 

[The Virginian]

I don't.

But anyway... you misunderstand... the second person has never heard of God, doesn't know, has no way of knowing.

If in point of fact, ther worlds have been created by Almighty God, it means that something fo Himself is there in what He has created, although not His essence. This explains the statement of Apostle Paul to the Romans, "...For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,...." So then; either this is true, or the Apostle is a liar!
As to your original question: The one who repents out of fear of eternal punishment, an does what God requires is the more righteous person. The other person is no more than a 'good moral man', whose works are not close to being enough to satisfy the righteousness of God.


"...but God looks upon the heart...."

 

[He put me back together]

A thought experiment:



Who is the more righteous person...

1) The one who accepts the Christian God out of fear for eternal hell and does no evil.

2) The person who knows no religion and despite human nature, does good on his own, in the name of no God?

Neither. No one is righteous.