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Rick Santorum Says ‘Nothing’ Was In America Before White Colonizers Arrived

Discussion in 'Current News & Events (Articles Required)' started by tulc, Apr 26, 2021.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not sure how to interpret your last statement that I underlined. The American Indian prior to the Caucasian peoples migrating to America were pagans, not Christians. Only after contact with Christians that migrated from Europe did some tribes convert to Christ, and that only a very small number.

    Nah, that's really just a myth. One little settlement under John Smith with Indians introducing them to corn isn't enough to prove that. God was in control of the Caucasians migrating to the West including the Americas. The U.S. founders well understood this and wrote about it.

    That's a myth too. I'm not saying all treaties with the Indians were kept, but not all of them were broken either.

    Now you've gone off in a mythical tangent of bias and hatred, my exact point of this thread as being BOGUS.
     
  2. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    There WAS something here when the Europeans arrived.It just was not European.There was culture but not European culture. There was commerce, but it was not European style commerce. There was religion but not Christianity. There was community,language, families and traditions of the people. So, the Europeans wanted everything not European to go away, including the people. But, the people were here FIRST! Their culture was very present. But Rick Santorum told the students a lie. There was something here BEFORE Europeans came.
     
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  3. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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    1710 was almost 100 years after the Pilgrims arrived.

    Yes, they called sachem leaders kings as the called Metacomet King Philip.

    However, the English here in the US saw the natives as savages and rarely lived among them.

    The French on the other hand lived with them, assimilated with them and even exchanged orphan children so that each side would have a child from the other race that would grown and know the language and culture when they became adults. They could then help the Indians and French settlers to understand each other better.

    Keep in mind also that the French were Catholic and hated by the English. I'm of 100% Acadian descent and know the dysphoria of the Acadians by the British.
     
  4. East of Eden

    East of Eden Well-Known Member

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    Spiritual, if you count demon worship, much like the nations Israel conquered.
     
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Than I suggest you re-read what I said. Spirituality and Christianity are not one and the same thing. They had the Great Spirit. And we had Native Americans in our church. In fact, we have a Native American school for them. And not one of those that tries to wipe out their culture. As one said---"The whites call their Great Spirit, God and Jesus. Yet, they use those names very casually and in their swear words---we would never even think of such a thing." They held their Great Spirit in much reverence. No, no mythical tangent of bias and hatred----seems to me that is what you are doing. But whatever----that is enough for me on this thread. I will leave you to have the last word, I am unwatching this thread. If this thread is bogus than you should have ignored it.
     
  6. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    Let us have a little perspective here. The French and English colonial models were completely different. The English had settler colonies or ones based on plantations; the French set-up a fur trading empire. The latter model required locals to catch the furs and bring them in for trade, so that all the French needed was to secure the St Lawrence river or establish a few coastal ports. The Native Americans were thus a requirement for extraction of resources. The colony never had large scale immigration like the British ones did, so the stress between the natives and the French were not as acute, and the French settlement expanded by natural birth mostly.

    This does not mean they were peaceful. On arrival, the French allied with the Huron and Algonquins against the Iroquois. One of the first acts of the French colony was to go to war with the Iroquois, and they would have an ongoing on and off war till the British took over. The French chose certain tribes which they then favoured against others - classic divide and rule. The Frenchman that lived amongst the natives was essentially a way to extend French influence in their fur-trading empire, not a magnanimous gesture of understanding - that was why Champlain did it in the first place. The British did very similar in Prince Rupert's Land for the Hudson Bay Company.

    The Iroquois sided with the British in all their wars with the French, because from their arrival the French had been openly hostile towards the Iroquois. By that time, the Iroquois considered the French to be traditional enemies, as much as the English did. If the French had won, the Iroquois would have been disposessed of much of their lands and the French Indian allies would have gleefully slaughtered them. This alliance between the British and the Iroquous would last, which is why they sided with the British in the war of 1812 as well. To this day, the British in Canada were much nicer to the Native Americans than the US ever was, which is why many plains Indians moved to Canada in the 19th century.

    If you look at French colonialism elsewhere, in North Africa or the Caribbean say, you'd see they aren't that different. Usually, British colonies tend to be a little better in their regard for the peoples that live there, especially in Africa (so that Anglophone Africa is more prosperous today than the Francophone one). The North American French colony of New France was largely a model built on exploiting native fur trading skills, which thus required co-opting certain tribes (and thus marginalising or elimating those they did not favour). Where sufficient French settled, you got the Algerian wars and dispossession; or if needed the forcible takeover of Vietnam or Tahiti or Senegal.

    Let us not needlessly condemn the French or pretend they were angels. They were another European colonial power actively engaged in spreading French influence in support of their fur trading; and opposing their traditional English enemy's extension of their colonies. Some tribes ended up siding with the English, some with the French. Both were faithless at times, though the British adhered to their treaties much better than the US government ever did; and it is an open question how France would have acted if large scale immigration of Frenchmen occurred or if they had to deal with the population explosion of the Quebecois in the 19th - though we both know the answer here, I am afraid.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  7. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    You must be careful of generalising. For every Handsome Lake or Wakan Tanka belief, you also get Sun Dancing and Tenskwatawa. Just like in Europe there were sincere religious things such as The Pilgrim's Progress or monasticism; and there were the Inquisition and Wars of Religion. I don't even think you can fully divide the good from the bad here, as many of the 'bad religious' obviously thought they were doing good and probably did partial good perhaps in many cases. The real world is messy, and the Native Tribes in the Americas are normal humans, which seldom lends to gross generalisation.
     
  8. East of Eden

    East of Eden Well-Known Member

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    Native Americans were often warring on and trying to take over other tribes and hunting lands, doesn't that make them colonists too?
     
  9. East of Eden

    East of Eden Well-Known Member

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    Just pointing out your question is a bad analogy.
     
  10. tulc

    tulc loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!

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    ...that's still not a "yes or a no" answer to the question, it actually looks more like a "dodge the question" sort of answer.
    tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)
     
  11. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    You are right but they were here FIRST!
     
  12. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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    Actually in the 17 century when the first French Arrived in Quebec Province just north of New York State, they set up schools and hospitals to serve the Heron nation. The Jesuits, the so-called Black Robes, brought Christianity to the tribes and tried to convert the Iroquois, who were enemies of the Heron's. Fr Isaac Jogues and others were martyred, but were tortured severely. The Iroquois tribe tide up one of the priest in the center of the village where the women and children could chew his thumbs off. Torturing for sport was part of both the Heron and Iroquois tribes until the Jesuits got the Heron's to stop. Fr Jogues lived with the Iroquois before he was killed by a renegade in the village when the elders were out on a hunting party. So they actually tried to make friends with the Iroquois but they saw this as weakness.


    Read the book, "Saint Among Savages," by Francis X. Talbot. The author used the memoirs written by St Isaac Jogues and others to write the book.

    Myself I visited the Shrine of North American Martyrs in upstate New York and visited the so called "Hill of Pain," where many of the captives were tortured to death.

    The reason why the Iroquois sided with the British during the French and Indian War was because they saw the British as being stronger as they refused to simulate and live with the natives as the French did. They saw the French as weak because of their assimilating with the natives There was a marked difference between how the French and British treated the Native Americans. As it was, the Nipmuc Indians helped the French Acadians, but hated the British.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  13. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lol, what's with this 'we' / 'them' stuff? I get called a racist when I do it!

    What's to be gained pushing a narrative that misses his point entirely? He didn't say anything against the Native Americans. Why does he need to point at the horrors done by the settlers? That wasn't his point. Why should it be his point? Is that the only point worth making about the Native Americans?

    This media driven mindset is getting way out of hand.
     
  14. East of Eden

    East of Eden Well-Known Member

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    Your question was stillborn, try again.
     
  15. East of Eden

    East of Eden Well-Known Member

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    And the Canaanites, another demon worshipping pagan group, were in Israel first. So?
     
  16. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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    The norm for the history of the world is, those cultures which do not evolve, cease to exist.

    The book, "Guns Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond, gives a good look at why European and other societies developed while others declined. Race had nothing to do with it.
     
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  17. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    His point is understood, I think. He's saying Native American culture has left little to no cultural footprint in our common, shared cultural experience today. I think that's an accurate assessment in some significant sense.

    The irony, as pitiful as it is, about his observation is the distinct reason for why his assessment makes sense: anything not Anglo/Christian was often systematically suppressed by the dominant culture, which is the very one he desires to remain supreme.

    The problem with that kind of arrogance is that same attitude was necessarily present when the atrocities against Native Amercans occurred in the last centuries, e.g. Trail of Tears. Or, you know, last month.

    I'll give him credit for being honest. I think he was speaking his heart.
     
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  18. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    That has nothing to do with Rick Santorum saying there was NOTHING here prior to European invasion.
     
  19. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think he realized his faux pas and tried to make sense out of it, instead of backing up. I expect what he had meant to get at was that USA was built on certain principles, not on existing social structures.

    What gets me is the big deal made out of this compared to the ignoring and covering-up of Biden's MANY such 'racist' statements, not to mention others' from that side of the aisle.
     
  20. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What evidence do you have that he is dominionist? I hadn't heard that.
     
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