Reversing the Membership Decline

[Sword of the Lord]

I was hesitant to place this here rather than in the Confessional and Conservative subforum of TCL because of the ELCA and the inevitable suggestions of disregarding Biblical truths on social issues to draw more members in, but since the subforum is virtually dead with this one not being too far behind, I'm placing this here to encourage discussion from all Lutherans. Maybe we can spark a revival in all of our churches and in this forum.

Reversing the LCMS membership decline: not just by having more children - LCMS News & Information

Evangelism and child rearing are some main points of discussion. While those are important, I think it's high time that we in the LCMS and those in the WELS stop playing with semantics, sit down, come to agreement, and join together. There's not enough to separate us that we shouldn't be in communion. Afterwards, we as a larger, united church should reach out to NALC. They left the ELCA because of their atrocities and abandoning the narrow road for the easier, more socially acceptable wide road. They still have female pastors and open communion, but I've been told by members of the NALC that more and more of their parishes are disagreeing with female clergy and favoring male pastors; allowing female clergy seems to be the minority position in their church, and since they're basically brand new, they're still working things out. They've spoken with the LCMS. I think if the LCMS and WELS were to join, they would be very encouraged and fully adopt our position and join as well. Then we would have a much larger and united church all over the place and from different backgrounds to reach out to people and evangelize, abundantly addressing the membership decline.

 

[chevyontheriver]

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[Sword of the Lord]

I'd be happy if you guys, the LCMS and WELS, took up with the Catholics. I know that for many of you that would be a big leap. But we already work together on pro-life issues. We know each other a bit through that. It would be far better for the Catholic side to be dealing with you guys than the more liberal Lutherans we deal with, sort of, right now. Now maybe, and this is just as far fetched, we could get the Orthodox in too, and maybe some stray evangelicals. Undo this 500 year old thing we have going on. Just sayin'. Not trying to ruffle any feathers.

Talking is good, but the thing is, Catholics view this as a "coming home" for other faiths. There's an automatic assumption that we view the RCC as the true Church, a superiority by Catholics, and an unwillingness to change anything about yourselves, but rather, that we conform to you. That's not how we see it. The RCC would have to recant their errors, additions, assumptions, and after-the-fact creations, and conform to Scripture. While the ELCA is wrong about serious issues such as homosexuality and abortion, the RCC is wrong about serious issues such as Papal supremacy, indulgences, purgatory, prayers to Saints, etc. You're just as wrong and twist and manipulate Scripture just as much, only for different things. Most Confessional Lutherans I know of would sooner become Orthodox as things stand. It takes mental gymnastics to be Catholic.

My opinion.

 

[SkyWriting]

Talking is good, but the thing is, Catholics view this as a "coming home" for other faiths. There's an automatic assumption that we view the RCC as the true Church, a superiority by Catholics, and an unwillingness to change anything about yourselves, but rather, that we conform to you. That's not how we see it. The RCC would have to recant their errors, additions, assumptions, and after-the-fact creations, and conform to Scripture. While the ELCA is wrong about serious issues such as homosexuality and abortion, the RCC is wrong about serious issues such as Papal supremacy, indulgences, purgatory, prayers to Saints, etc. You're just as wrong and twist and manipulate Scripture just as much, only for different things. Most Confessional Lutherans I know of would sooner become Orthodox as things stand. It takes mental gymnastics to be Catholic.My opinion.

Wow, that's a lot of stuff a lot of other people are wrong about!

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Wow, that's a lot of stuff a lot of other people are wrong about!

Ummm, yeah. If churches didn't believe others were wrong, we'd all be one church with the same beliefs. I probably shouldn't mention that Muslims and Jews and Pagans are wrong... that would be a lot of stuff other people are wrong about. Tsk tsk.

tl;dr: what's your point?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Ummm, yeah. If churches didn't believe others were wrong, we'd all be one church with the same beliefs.

Witness the LCMS and WELS. You want them to bend a little to get along?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Witness the LCMS and WELS. You want them to bend a little to get along?

It truly is "a little." Not so between Confessional Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism.

Frequently Asked Questions | Denominations - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

QUESTION: What are the main differences between the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS)?

ANSWER: From the LCMS perspective, the three main theological differences between the LCMS and the WELS are the following:

1. The biblical understanding of fellowship.

The WELS holds to what is called the "unit concept" of fellowship, which places virtually all joint expressions of the Christian faith on the same level.

In an official statement made in 1960 the WELS states, "Church fellowship should therefore be treated as a unit concept, covering every joint expression, manifestation, and demonstration of a common faith" (Doctrinal Statements of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, 1970, pp. 51-52).

The LCMS, however, has historically not understood or practiced church fellowship in this way. Our Synod, for example, has made a distinction between altar and pulpit fellowship (for which full doctrinal agreement is required) and other manifestations of Christian fellowship, such as prayer fellowship (which do not necessarily require full doctrinal agreement).

Disagreements on this issue led the Wisconsin Synod to break fellowship with the LCMS in 1961.

2. The doctrine of the ministry.

With respect to the doctrine of the ministry, since the days of C.F.W. Walther our Synod has held that the office of the public ministry (the pastoral office) according to Scripture is the one divinely established office in the church, while the church possesses the freedom to create other offices, by human institution, from time to time to assist in the carrying out of the functions of the pastoral ministry.

The WELS' Theses on Church and Ministry, however, expressly deny that the pastoral ministry is specifically instituted by the Lord in contrast to other forms of public ministry (see Doctrinal Statements, pp. 9-11; cf. the Commission on Theology and Church Relations' 1981 report on The Ministry: Office, Procedures, and Nomenclature.

3. The role of women in the church.

While both the LCMS and the WELS strongly oppose the ordination of women to the pastoral office on Scriptural grounds, the LCMS has concluded that the Scriptures do not forbid woman suffrage in the church. The WELS opposes woman suffrage in the church as contrary to Scripture.

---

The RCC believes itself to be the One True Church and that it cannot change (although it has). We would be giving up everything we believe in regards to where we believe you are wrong. We would have to accept things such as Papal Supremacy and Infallibility, Indulgences, your understanding of the Communion of Saints, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception (even a required belief for Salvation!), the Assumption of Mary, that Scripture alone isn't the final and only basis for Christian beliefs and practice, 7 Sacraments instead of 2, differences on Justification, that we can earn merit through good works, among other things.

This is nothing small nor few.

 

[FireDragon76]

Am I to understand you welcome discussion from all Lutherans? I am a bit confused.

I think its a difficult period for any historic, confessional Christian tradition. Western Christian churches have done a poor job justifying their existence, especially because they have tended to regard only the side of religion focused on propositional truth as paramount. Lutherans in particular are weak in discussing the practical applications of their faith.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It truly is "a little." Not so between Confessional Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism.

I wish you success in your attempt to reconcile LCMS and WELS. My experience with WELS is that they might look at LCMS as way too liberal on the understanding of creationism and thus not likely to want to cooperate. But I wish you success anyhow. You launched into how irreconcilable Lutherans and Catholics are, and I suppose we will have hundreds of years more of separation after the 500 we already have. God must be pleased with that. I'm not, but what does it matter what I might want?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I wish you success in your attempt to reconcile LCMS and WELS. My experience with WELS is that they might look at LCMS as way too liberal on the understanding of creationism and thus not likely to want to cooperate. But I wish you success anyhow. You launched into how irreconcilable Lutherans and Catholics are, and I suppose we will have hundreds of years more of separation after the 500 we already have. God must be pleased with that. I'm not, but what does it matter what I might want?

We believe in a literal 7 day creation, so...

Also, we aren't the ones claiming one true church with a refusal to change, so...

 

[FireDragon76]

What does the LCMS mean by a "literal 7 day creation"? 24 hour days?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

What does the LCMS mean by a "literal 7 day creation"? 24 hour days?

I guess it would technically be 6 days since the 7th day was a day of rest.

Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the LCMS - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

Of Creation

1. We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Gen. 1 and 2, namely, by His almighty creative word, and in six days. We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of creation as taught in Scripture. In our days it is denied or limited by those who assert, ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of evolution; that is, that it has, in immense periods of time, developed more or less of itself. Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a reliable account of creation to God's own record, found in God's own book, the Bible. We accept God's own record with full confidence and confess with Luther's Catechism: "I believe that God has made me and all creatures."

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I was emailing with my pastor about this. This was his reply:

"I think altar and pulpit fellowship with the WELS and the ELS in the next 15 years is a very real possibility, and something that is to be desired. In fact, there is some work in that direction. In fact, President Harrison has attended the "Emmaus Conference" - a free conference (that is, not directly sponsored by a synod) with the Presidents of the WELS and ELS in the last few years. There are some institutional hangups yet - but as some of the old guard who fought in the 60s and 70s move into retirement, this is more and more a possibility.

As for the NALC, there is a possibility there - I don't know how quickly it would come about, but I know that we are in talks. I highly respect one of their professors (Jim Nestigen) - and I think if liberalism becomes even more extreme, it may cause them to pull back.

The other church body we are talking with (which is in the same women's ordination boat as the NALC) is the ACNA - the Anglican Communion of North America. These are conservative Anglicans who broke off of Canterbury because of it's liberalism. We have been in dialogs with them.



The other thing to bear in mind is that right now our work in establishing fellowship seems to be more focused on overseas work. President Harrison just yesterday noted that there are 20 international church bodies seeking fellowship with us. The History with this is that many of them are African and Asian Churches that had been founded 50+ years ago by European Lutheran churches which are part of the LWF - but the LWF has gone completely liberal. These African and Asian churches are rejecting that liberalism.

We have actually moved into fellowship with several foreign synods - and there is a thriving world Lutheranism. We forget that there are more Lutherans in Ethiopia than there are in the US.

So - we'll see what happens.

Pastor Brown"

 

[FireDragon76]

I used to go to an ACNA church many years ago for a few months. They are more like the NALC, a no-to-gay-pastors type mainline church. But I'd be surprised if they were creationists in the sense the LCMS seems to understand. So wouldn't that be a factor in fellowship?

 

[Jekyll]

The LCMS's position on creation is the lone barrier to my seriously considering join the LCMS. I simply refuse, however, to be intellectually dishonest, which is what I believe joining a communion which insists on a teaching which I simply do not believe to be true. I would happily remain silent on the issue even if most of my fellow parishioners believed what the LCMS teaches on the manner if the LCMS simply treated the issue as one on which differing views are acceptable within the Synod. But for this one issue, I find myself closer to the LCMS than any other body.

Frankly, insisting that parishioners disbelieve long established scientific theories supported by overwhelming evidence will doom that communion or synod to decline.

 

[tampasteve]

I am not sure what the answer really is. I have noticed that many of my friends, myself included, are drawn towards a liturgical church.