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Featured Futurist Only Revelations: Seals, Trumpets, Vials of Wrath

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by mark kennedy, Sep 16, 2017.

  1. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I've long believed that Revelations is a remarkably simple book to understand. Romans, Hebrews and certainly the Old Testament prophets were all challenges, taking years for me to actually unravel, by comparison Revelations is a snap. A couple of things before I get started, first of all, this exposition is a scenario that is based on a chronological order. In other words the narrative is a successive series of future events, predicted by the Apostle John sometime before 70 AD. I'm not interested in defending my views along those lines, just being up front about it. I believe in a mid to post tribulation rapture which I regard as a minor point of doctrine not significantly effecting a serious exposition of the text, I'm not interested in defending that view in this thread either. I'm simply looking for anyone interested in doing an actual exposition of the text.

    I'm going to show you what I hope will lead to a fuller examination of this testimony. I'll start with the primary events, the seals, trumpets and vials of wrath.

    Seals
    The Tribulation begins with the opening of the first seal, the white rider with a bow. This conquest isn't a military strike although it might follow one. This is more like Napoleon Bonaparte or Adolf Hitler and their parades. Once he has assumed power things change quickly, the red rider has a sword and takes peace from the earth. The contrast here seems to be the bow vs. the sword, a ballistic weapon vs. an infantry weapon. This Antichrist guy, the little horn, rises to power, he uproots three big horns:

    "While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts. (Dan. 7:8)
    This is what I think happens, he has some kind of devastating ballistic weapon that he can direct anywhere and destroy anything. Far from being science fiction the famous Star Wars defense was an attempt to develop a ballistic weapon that could shoot ICBMs out of the sky. If that technology did exist today it takes little imagination to see how it could be used to target just about anything and send a pulse destroying any military facility in place. His little nation takes down 3 superpowers in a day, and following his big victory there are a lot of parades and celebrations as he assumes global domination. During this time Israel enters into the covenant of death, not unlike Israels historical tendency to go down to Egypt for help. It isn't very long before the new empire descends into bloody conflict, Israel being the eye of the storm. Famine, the third horseman suggests rationing, a day's wages for a loaf of bread basically, apparently the slave trade makes a comeback. The ghastly rider, who is the fourth horseman is a chaos cocktail, this is the bloody anarchy that follows in the wake.

    Then something very interesting in heaven happens, the martyrs beneath the altar complaining that they were killed. The sixth seal is sounds strangely like a nuclear war, the stars falling from the heavens, sky receding like a scroll. Then the population is underground, I suspect in bunkers and whatever basement they can find. By far the strangest thing for me has always been that they know this is from the Lamb. The only explanation I can come up with for this is the martyrs (witnesses) told them this was predicted. The seventh seal basically introduces the trumpets.

    The trumpet don't start sounding until almost half way through the tribulation. The whole time the Antichrist is preaching, 'let us cast his chains asunder', exalting himself above everything that is called God (god). Oh and by the way, the 144,000 Jews are living somewhere on earth, I suspect in the Sinai and the Antichrist can't touch them which probably has this lunatic chewing on rugs.

    Trumpets


    Fast forward almost three and a half years, we've all prayed the Lord's prayer, 'thy kingdom come, they will be done', at the end of the trumpets this prayer comes true. The two witnesses in Jerusalem have been preaching and driving everybody crazy. One attempt after another was made on their lives and the had the plagues of Moses and other defenses. What you have to understand about the trumpet blasts is that they are basically a deconstruction of the original creation. When the Spirit was hovering over the waters the earth was covered in water and clouds. According to modern science it was a reducing (hydrogen rich) atmosphere, super heated vents had the waters boiling like a cauldron, inside of six days the land, sea and atmosphere is reconstructed to create the biosphere we inhabit. With the sounding of the trumpets this is systematically, but not totally destroyed.

    If you do not find this part of the discussion disturbing your not paying attention:

    And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. (Rev. 8:4,5)​

    What you have to realize here is that the prayers of the saints are essentially the reason for the judgment. God has been hearing those prayers, the injustice, the bloody violence, the outrage, the patient hope of justice. You have heard about someone being incensed, well, this is what it's like when God is incensed.

    The first trumpet is sounded, hail and fire mixed with blood destroy 1/3 of the vegetation of the earth. The second trumpet indicates a 'blazing mountain', I assume some kind of a meteorite, turning the sea to blood and destroying 1/3 of the sea life and ships. The third trumpet is called wormwood, a poison, it poisons a third of the fresh water resources. The fourth seal strike the atmosphere and reduces lite from the heavens again by 1/3, that's the blunt of the eighth chapter.

    Personally I think the the next two trumpet blasts are by far the most interesting. The stars from heaven and the opening of the abyss are obviously a demonic host. The sixth trumpet are the four angles have apparently kept some semblance of peace by keeping certain powers separated. These defending angels are removed and the demonic host is released. The battle at it's core has always been spiritual, just as God exposes sin in our lives to bring us to repentance he brings out the spiritual evil that has held this earth for so long.

    Forgive me a long quote but this is important:

    Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:​

    “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
    The One who is and who was and who is to come,
    Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
    The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
    And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
    And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
    And those who fear Your name, small and great,
    And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
    Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenanth was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev. 11:15-19)​

    This is only half way through the tribulation, according to heaven the kingdoms of earth have become the kingdom of God. Meanwhile back on earth the Antichrist has pulled out all the stops, now decapitating anyone who will not bow the knee and accept the mark. After all of this they are still running wild, this goes on for another three and a half years. The whole time he is telling them they can win, even against God. Even the devil is cast down to the earth and their rage is unprecedented, the vials of wrath are the final wave of judgment, after that they are done.

    I'm going to hold off here, I want to hear from you. Tell me about the vials of wrath.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
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  2. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  3. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  4. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  5. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  6. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The sixth seal sounds like a nuclear exchange to me. I think the seals reveal the Antichrist and wickedness in high places (2 Thess. 2:3-8), a passage assuring the Thessalonians the Day of the Lord had not come yet. Before it does the Antichrist, the man of sin, the little horn and the leader of the beast from the sea must be revealed. We live in a world where despotic nations are developing nuclear capabilities. There will come a time when this will no longer be restrained and from the opening of first seal this is what is happening here. The opening of the seals is his inaugural bloody rampage ending with people hiding under ground, many I assume in bunkers. One of the worst things God can do to a sinner is hand them over to their sin, the worst thing about that sin is the sin itself.

    The sixth trumpet marks the fall of a demonic host including Satan himself (the dragon). The four angels who were preventing wholesale war between the east and west now taken out of the way set the stage for Armageddon. Israel starting half way through the tribulation flees into the wilderness, I expect in the hills of Judea. Babylon is perhaps the single most enigmatic prophecy in the book, a city built on the backs of slave labor who finance the Antichrist's war machine and receive the plunder of his conquests.

    Both the first four trumpets and the four vials are a deconstruction of the original creation. Babylon, like the armies of the Antichrist and later the kings of the east are drenched in demonic possession. The demons from the abyss, the demonic host falling from heaven, the dragon being cast down all indicate unprecedented demonic activity.

    During the entire ordeal there is a witness, who are mentioned at the opening of the sixth seal (martyrs beneath the altar), before the sounding of the trumpets (the censor 'prayers of the saints' Rev. 8:3). By the time of the vials of wrath there is no mention of the church or Israel, I think the rapture has happened by that time and the church (Jewish and Gentile) has been raptured.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The Sixth Seal will badly affect the whole world, with earthquakes, tsunamis, fire and violent storms. The sound of it will be heard around the world. Jeremiah 25:30-32
    So a nuke exchange will not do all of that. What WILL achieve and will literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, is a Coronal Mass Ejection; an explosion of the suns surface, that Isaiah 30:26 says will happen.
    There will, in fact, be another smaller CME at the Fourth Bowl, Revelation 16:8.
    Wrong. The holy ones of God, His Christian people are seen in the holy Land just before the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  8. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Perhaps but the last detonation in North Korea triggered an earthquake. It's just the sky receding like a scroll and everyone under ground that makes me think it might be.

    The vials are poured out in the 16th chapter
     
  9. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I live in the Southern hemisphere. I would be unaffected by a nuke exchange in the Northern.
    My quotes of Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 were to prove that the holy people of God are seen in the Land during the Great Tribulation.
     
  10. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    The stars will literally fall to the earth. Seeing they are the host of heaven, part of the army of the Lord. Right now they appear as shining lights, but they are God's angels of light and they are doing their job set for them in Genesis 1.

    Jesus said they will fall, and Revelations says fall to earth, so fall they will. This will be an awful experience to witness for them that are being judged as they will cry out to the mountains to cover them from this fierce wrath of flaming fire coming on to the earth.

    And at the end there will be no need for sun or moon for light as the Lamb will be the Light.
    You can not unspiritualize Revelations, these angelic powers and heaven exist as they are, as it says in v7 and 8. One of the natures of God's angels is flaming fire.

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-11New King James Version (NKJV)
    7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

    11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

    Hebrews 1:6-7New King James Version (NKJV)
    6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

    “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

    7 And of the angels He says:

    “Who makes His angels spirits
    And His ministers a flame of fire.”
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  11. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place (Rev. 6:12-14)​

    Taken together this doesn't sound like the fall of an angelic host. I think it's a massive nuclear strike since the sky receded like a scroll, mountains and islands moved. The seals expose sin, the devastation following the opening of the seals can be attributed to human devastation. The trumpets and vials of wrath on the other hand are judgment for sin.

    Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. (Rev. 12:3,4)
    Demons inhabit the heavens, the spiritual realms, right after the half way mark in the tribulation the devil and his angels are cast to earth.
     
  12. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    There are some areas that would be harder hit then others but the armies of the Antichrist running wild would definitely effect you, so would nuclear winter.

    Those are both mid-tribulation events. Yes, Israel is still around at the mid point of the tribulation and fleeing the Antichrist. Since they repent, Israel and the Gentile church are raptured sometime before the vials of wrath. My view is sometimes called the pre-wrath, post tribulation view. I think people convert throughout the tribulation and a number of survivors are still alive going up to the pouring out of the vials of wrath.

    The worst of Satan's demonic host is released from the Abyss and torment anyone who isn't marked:

    And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. (Rev. 9:5,6)
    The kingdom of the Antichrist and Babylon is drenched in demonic activity during the second half of the tribulation.
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Never heard of the Intertropical Convergence Zone? It keeps the weather of the Hemispheres generally separate. Of course we would be affected - instead of exporting all our surplus food, etc, we would have to eat it ourselves if the Northern peoples wiped themselves out.
    But joking aside, a nuke war is not what the Bible prophesies. God says He will destroy all weapons of war. Hosea 2:18, Haggai 2:21-22, Jeremiah 49:35
    What the Prophetic Word does tell us, is that God will instigate an explosion on the suns surface; a Coronal mass Ejection of unprecedented magnitude, that will literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that terrible Day. The EMP of an big CME will achieve the destruction of all modern weapons of war.
    What is so difficult to believe about that? God did Flood the earth before and this time the earth is reserved for fire. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 30:26
    Yes; God's holy people are proved to be in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ breaks the 7 year peace treaty at the mid point and conquers them. Zechariah 14:1-2
    There is only one people of God, that will comprise of people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Jews and Gentiles, slave and free, black and white, ALL faithful Christians. They will be divided into two groups, as Daniel 11:32 shows. The faithful ones taken to safety; Revelation 12:14 and those who violated the Covenant; remain in the holy Land. Revelation 12:17.
    There is no rapture to heaven for anyone. Just the souls of those killed for their faith, including the 2 witnesses, will go there and will Return with Jesus, then be brought back to life. Revelation 20:4
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  14. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Think what you like but stars falling from the heavens and the sky receding like a scroll, then everyone underground. You don't buy it, don't worry about it.

    I don't know what will fulfill the prophecies but I'm sure that the seals unleash human violence from humans.

    Israel didn't keep the covenant, that doesn't mean God didn't.

    That doesn't make any sense, there is no resurrection but people will be brought back to life. When we talk about the resurrection we are talking about God's promise in the gospel. I think you should be a little more careful how you word these things.
     
  15. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  16. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    That's absurd, the opening of the seals is the beginning of the tribulation
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I agree with you here, Mark. Its a serious shuffling of scripture to place the Sixth Seal at Jesus' Return.
    There is a difference between being brought back to life, as Lazarus was and the resurrection to Eternal life. The former will happen the martyrs as Revelation 20:4 says. The latter does not occur before the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15
    A big CME will cause these effects and all the other dramatic prophesied things. I have a list of 116 prophesies that will be literally fulfilled on the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, by a CME. Believe it now or just keep to your nuke war idea, that could never do the things described for that terrible Day.
    The Covenant is now the New Covenant; with Christians. Only Christian Jews will participate. The rest will die. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:18, Luke 19:27
     
  18. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    We dont need stars to turn into nuclear bombs. Simply the host of heaven are those stars.
    The stars also sing for joy at the creation. Stars are alive spiritually, we just see their light from earth. Stars have a glory as does sun and moon, but they are all designed as lights in the firmament to shine om the earth. Going beyond that your adding on to what they are, and you know space and other planets and the universe of endless glowing balls of gasses is science fiction.

    You will never hear of this purpose for the stars from science.

    Genesis 1:14-18New King James Version (NKJV)
    14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.

    16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.

    17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
     
  19. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  20. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
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