• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Revelation's First Beast

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by cbk, Jul 17, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    Often times, in the Old Testament, events happened which were merely shadows of things to come.

    For example, when Moses raised the serpent on the pole that brought healing to his people, this was a foreshadowing of Jesus on the cross. And the passing of the angel of death through Egypt that did not destroy those who were protected by the blood of the lamb was a foreshadowing of we who will not be destroyed because we are protected by the blood of the lamb.

    Events sometimes come in pairs.

    My concern is this. I understand that the four beasts of Daniel may have already occurred in the past and may have been fulfilled. But, is it possible that the events of the past that many of us believe to have been fulfilled are just foreshadowings of a broader, more perfect fulfilling in the future?

    To me, the four beasts of Daniel have to exist at the same time in order to fulfill Daniel 7:12 where it says "The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time"

    As such, as I have stated in other posts and threads, it appears to me that the "quartet" (U.S., Russia, U.N., and E.U.), as individual empires/nations/kingdoms, look strikenly similar to the four beasts of Daniel. And that the first beast of Revelation looks strikenly similar to these four 'uniting' for a common purpose. IE, Daniels 4 beasts added together would equate a beast with 7 heads, 10 horns, and have the characteristics of a leopard, lion, and bear. Furthermore, if you note that the beasts of Daniel and the first beast of Revelation came up from the SEA, then the appearance is that they are similar.

    Today, the "quartet" has ONE primary purpose, and that is to bring (impose) peace between the Jews and Palestinians. This, I see as significant and may have serious consequences in the future.

    What are your feelings about the function of the "quartet" and its significance to "end times"????????
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Donny_B

    Donny_B Active Member

    570
    +3
    Protestant
    Single
    From my studies I see the 4 beasts of Daniel 7 as the 4 great gentile powers that were around between the time of Daniel and the time of Christ: Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

    Revelation's first beast has characteristics of the first 3 beasts of Daniel. I believe this shows the conquering by Rome of the lands of its 3 predecessors. Revelation's first beast and Daniel's fourth beast are descriptions of the same entity in my view. These beasts come from the sea. I believe "sea" means out of the Gentile nations.

    In contrast, the second beast of Revelation comes out of the earth. "Earth", I believe, is the opposite of "sea", meaning out of Israel, or spiritual Israel - the Church.

    I believe we are still looking at Rome, however, just two aspects of it, political and ecclesiastical.
     
  3. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    Thank you for your reply.

    You state that Revelation's first beast has the characteristics of the first 3 beasts of Daniel, but why stop there, when, in fact, it has the characteristics of ALL 4 beasts of Daniel? (for it has 10 horns upon its head) -- none of the first 3 beasts are described as having 10 horns.

    But, I see your point.

    Yet, also, in Daniel 7:11-12, we see that all four beasts are to exist at the same time. In fact, the fourth beast is destroyed while the first three are allowed to continue for a short time. How does history support this?? When was the Roman Empire destroyed in such a way as to be considered slain, destroyed, and burned while the other three were STILL living for a short time??

    And notice, that if the fourth beast of Daniel IS the first beast of Revelation (and not an alliance of the four Daniel beasts), then where are the other six heads? They are not described in Daniel. Even when the interpretation is given.
     
  4. Donny_B

    Donny_B Active Member

    570
    +3
    Protestant
    Single
    A modern example where "subdued kingdoms" survived their "subduers" might be Russia, the Ukraine, Belarus, etc being subdued by the Bosheviks and replaced by the USSR in 1917, then becoming Russia, the Ukraine, and Belarus again when the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991. The pre-1917 and post-1991 versions of Russia, the Ukraine, and Belarus did not exist at the same time, although they were subdued at the same time during the Communist/USSR era between 1917 and 1991.
    The third beast of Daniel has 4 heads. If you assume the other 3 beasts have 1 head each, then you have a total of 7 heads. I believe this is a clue that Revelation's first beast equals Daniel's fourth beast and has absorbed its 3 predecessors.
     
  5. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Which countries has the Vatican or the EU conquered in the post 20 th century era in like manner as the old empires conquered and ruled lands and peoples?

    The Vatican's political power has shrunk greatly and the EU is not an Adolf Hitler type marauding Nazi panzer war machine. Germany, France etc are not quick to the gun as in the old days -- see Iraq war for example. Russian is having a tough time with little Chechnya hence that tells you about its conquering capabilities.

    The UN has not displayed conquering tendencies as well as the ancient Romans etc hence the end time beasts are somewhat difficult to see at this time.....
     
  6. Donny_B

    Donny_B Active Member

    570
    +3
    Protestant
    Single
    While Christians will continue to debate this, Rome best fits the descriptions given in Daniel in my view. It was the empire around when Christ offered the kingdom to Israel.

    In spite of today's political landscape that may seem to disqualify today's Rome as the center of power in the world, we would be wise to realize that everything may not be as it seems. That is why we have the scriptures, written in metaphorical language, that these things might be hidden to others, but revealed to the body of Christ.
     
  7. Donny_B

    Donny_B Active Member

    570
    +3
    Protestant
    Single
    If you have time to listen, here is a link to some archived radio broadcasts which may shed some light on a lot of history that has happened in the past 500 years. The radio interview Alex Merklinger has with Eric Jon Phelps is especially quite interesting.

    http://www.cephasministry.com/index_free_audios.html
     
  8. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
    Christian
    Married
    The beasts of Daniel were all fulfilled in history and teach us how to interpret the beasts of Revelations. The empires of history and how they effect the Holy City is shown in Daniel and the same goes for Revelations.
    The 10 horns of the scarlet beast of Revelation differs in that it represents 10 financial regions of the Trilateral Commission (TC) which is indicated by the kings that have no kingdoms yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    The United States Branch of this is called the Council for Foreign Relations (CFR). In 1988, they controlled over 60% of the world's money, and Nafta brought Mexico into the number one zone with the U.S. and Canada. You've heard Bush speak of this World government, and it exists economically, and can cause nations to rise or fall just by it's wealth.

    The leopard, bear, lion beast is Islam, which surround Israel. Syria is what was left of the early Greece empire/beast - the leopard. The bear is what is left of the Medo-Persian empire - Iran. The Lion is what is left of the Babylon empire - Iraq. They are united like the Islamic empire of old that nearly overran Europe in one thing - their demonic faith in Allah - one of the 360 false Gods of Ka'ab.
     
  9. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +66
    Non-Denom
    CBK

    you are misunderstanding the verses it does not say they are on the Earth at the same time.

    it says that the TERRITORY that they occupied will be consumed by Rome but they will have their day would be how you should read this.
     
  10. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    Just The Facts,

    Where does it state that the TERRITORY that they occupied will be consumed by Rome?

    The fourth beast is supposed to be destroyed while the other 3 maintain power for a short time. I believe their power is supposed to remain for a short time until the saints inherit the earth. I do not see how history has fulfilled any of this for the following reasons:

    1) The Roman Empire broke up, but still maintained some power, in as much as the other three. Therefore, if Rome is the fourth beast, I do not see how it suffered as much as the other 3 'historical' beasts of Daniel.

    2) I do not see where the other 3 beasts have "had their" day.
     
  11. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +66
    Non-Denom
    It says it right here

    "Thus he said: `As for the fourth beast,
    there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
    which shall be different from all the kingdoms,
    and it shall devour the whole earth,

    Are you saying Babylon was not a Kingdom?

    Are saying media Persia was not a ruling Kingdom?

    Are you saying Greece was not a ruling Kingdom?

    Al these Kingdoms had their day the Fourth Kingdom Rome also had its day.

    It was wounded by the sword (war) but it healed and came back as The Holy Roman Empire.

    The Head that was wounded is the head that represents Rome or the 7th head.


    Daniel

    First Beast = 1 head
    Second beast =1 head
    third beast = 4 heads
    Fourth Beast = 1 head

    total seven heads

    First Beast = Lion
    Second Beast = Bear
    Third beast = leopard
    Forth Beast terrible with Iron teeth.

    Now Rev 13:
    [2] And the beast that I saw was like a leopard , its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

    .. you see in Rev 13: the Beast(Rome) is a composite of all the kingdoms before with some traits from each kingdom being part of Rome it has the characteristics of the Empires it absorbed.

    Greek philosophy Military concepts and False Gods.

    Persia spices tapestry and False Gods

    Get the idea.

    Look at rev 13 with the last few verses of Rev 12: and you will see this Beast is Rome

    Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads.

    Here we see Satan is furious at the foundling Church and is out to destroy it. So he uses his Earthly Kingdom to hunt down Christians. History tells us the was Pagan Rome.
     
  12. Donny_B

    Donny_B Active Member

    570
    +3
    Protestant
    Single
    The chart here:

    http://www.historicist.com/2beasts.htm

    ..shows how Christian expositors, pre-Reformation through the 18th century, have viewed the 2 beasts. The expositor's country and denomination are listed. Most believe them to be pagan and papal Rome (with a few variations).
     
  13. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian

    If the two beasts of Revelation were pagan Rome and Papal Rome,

    Then HOW DID PAPAL ROME fulfil prophecy by BUILDING AN IMAGE AS IN REVELATION 13:14-16 What action did Papal Rome do to enforce the Mark of The beast ?

    Since the Vatican is now a Non Beast and is weak in terms of Global control and persecution of other non Catholic Christians, Jews etc... WHO IS GOING to persecute

    earth's Christians in the future?

    Surely, there will be a tribulation AND POPE JOHN PAUL 2 is not about to start

    killing TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

    Who is going to tribulate the HUMAN RACE before Christ returns since the Vatican beast

    is now more like a toothless Beast.
     
  14. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    The website answered my first question regarding Papal Rome and the Image of the Beast

    prophecy fulfilment.

    Now, the only thing is that a couple of hundreds of years have passed since the 19th century. We are now in the 21st century. Interpretations that explain Papal Rome as the second beast should explain the meaning of this length of time since the 19th century

    as far as prophecy is concerned. They must have further study on what lies ahead

    regarding the 10 horns of Revelation 17:12-14 BECAUSE THAT SEEMS YET TO BE FULFILLED.

    The 10 horns are now of prophetic interest.
     
  15. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +66
    Non-Denom
    I do not believe the second beast is papel Rome.

    I believe it is the Church state of Constantine.

    the Image of the Beast is the Catholic Church.

    Just The Facts
     
  16. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    The Image of the Beast IS VERY WEAK NOW hence that part of prophecy has moved well ahead
    THERE IS STILL A COMMON DENOMINATOR--- CATHOLIC - ROME-- VATICAN

    Constantine's church state is ancient HISTORY---WE ARE IN THE 21ST CENTURY

    Well, WHATEVER THE CASE, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CANNOT DO SQUAT TO ANYONE.
    They cannot tribulate the WHOLE EARTH

    THEY DO NOT CONTROL WORLD FINANCE----

    MY QUESTION IS WHO IS GOING TO tribulate CHRISTIANS IN THE FUTURE
    I MEAN, where are the 10 horns going to come from. People mention EU AND I HAVE MY DOUBTS
    The so called world political financial commissions maybe....
     
  17. Donny_B

    Donny_B Active Member

    570
    +3
    Protestant
    Single
    The pretended "powers to be" would not show their hand out in the open. But a little research will show you what is going on behind the scenes.

    Bible prophecy does not change.
     
  18. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    See, this is where I disagree with some of you.

    In regards to Daniel, some see that the Roman Empire is the fouth beast. But, according to prophecy, this empire is to rule the WHOLE world. Rome did not accomplish this.

    Granted, I could see that WHOLE world could mean the European/Middle East area and Rome could have fulfilled this prophecy. But, why is it, in regards to today, do many who hold this view also expect an organization to control the WHOLE world within the realm of 'end times' prophecy -- from Revelation.

    In as much as "whole world" meant Europe/MiddleEast in the Old Testament Prophecy, why could not "world" mean the same in regards to Revelation?

    I do not believe the beasts of Daniel were fulfilled centuries ago, however. Nor the first or second beasts of Revelation. Yet, I see where others are coming from in regards to Daniel/Revelation.

    In regards to Daniel, the books have not yet been opened. Therefore, this prophecy is not yet done.
     
  19. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Who told you Daniel does not have parts fulfilled already? Incorrect.

    These have been fulfilled



    Daniel 8:3-6 fulfilled Medo-Persia -versus Greeks

    3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river
    a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher
    than the other, and the higher came up last.
    4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no
    beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his
    hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
    5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face
    of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn
    between his eyes.
    6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before
    the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

    etc
    ---
    Parts fulfilled Daniel 2:31-32 Daniel 2:36-38
    Daniel 2:43-44 is in progress till the end

    Parts of Vision in Daniel 2
    DANIEL 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose
    brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
    32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly
    and his thighs of brass,
    33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
    37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a
    kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
    38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the
    fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over
    them all. Thou art this head of gold.
    39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third
    kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
    .....


    DANIEL 11:1-25 has been fulfilled in the post 4 division struggle after Alexander the great

    God is the one to determine what He means by the End, not humans. Dual prophecy

    fulfilment requires wisdom as well and Daniel has a number of dual prophecies


    THE PARTS INVOLVING JUDGEMENT are yet to be fulfilled--example DANIEL 7:9-10, Daniel 7:13-14

    The fact that some visions are given before/between JUDGEMENT DOES NOT MEAN they happen just
    before/during Judgement. There are gaps in these visions AND GOD states that there IS AN INTERVAL
    TILL THE TIME APPOINTED--DANIEL 11:35

    GOD'S INTERVALS can last for thousands of years.
    ==========
    ETHIOPIA AND LIBYA etc DANIEL 11:43 do not have any riches to offer IN THE 21ST century--- ANCIENT RICH KINGDOMS not today... Interpret the word properly.
    God is not mixing names here.

    ETHIOPIA IS A DEAD NATION DANIEL 11:43 That should warn you about those verses.
    Rich in ancient times.
     
  20. jayswife29

    jayswife29 Member

    294
    +3
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Rome, on its own might not be able to rule the whole world, but what about with the help of orginizations like the U.N.? The Pope? Leaders from the Asian countries? The Israeli pm? Our own president? I think that if enough people unite, anything is possible. With things like the civil war going on in Africa now, the suicide bombers in Israel, al-queda cells everywhere, people are going to start demanding a change, people will probably end up so desperate for "world peace" that they wont care who is running the show, as long as everyone gets what they want. I can see europe the united states and the united nations ushering in alot of "world control" but I believe that the Roman Empire will play a big role in it, when it "revives". Europe has been "uniting" for years now, with their money, religion, military, etc. last year in Brussels there was a press conference, it was decided that the "world" would be better off financially, and safer if it was divided up into ten regions with those ten regions having their own "leader" as long as the leaders were all in agreement with each other. This beast could be any country, or organization, the point is, it will happen, just like the Bible says it will. The whole world will be under the beasts dictatorship, or at the very least, influence.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...