Revelation was written during Nero's reign before 70AD

[parousia70]

Note that even today most inhabitants of Jerusalem and Judaea (southern Israel) might not own a car, much less an SUV.

Also, it would be impossible to pack 1,335 days of supplies (much less an enduring shelter) even into an SUV, anywhere in the world.

Note that your answer completely ignores my question.
Your answer would be universal for people, pregnant, nursing, on the sabbath or NOT.

Your answer claims a universal degree of "difficulty" for all people fleeing.
Jesus said it would be MORE difficult for pregnant, nursing mothers or on the sabbath.

You still haven't answered WHY?

All you have said is that it would be equally difficult for ALL peoples anywhere, anytime.

Jesus makes a detailed distinction, claiming a higher degree of difficulty for certain people under certain circumstances.

WHY?

 

[dfw69]

Note that your answer completely ignores my question.
Your answer would be universal for people, pregnant, nursing, on the sabbath or NOT.

Your answer claims a universal degree of "difficulty" for all people fleeing.
Jesus said it would be MORE difficult for pregnant, nursing mothers or on the sabbath.

You still haven't answered WHY?

All you have said is that it would be equally difficult for ALL peoples anywhere, anytime.

Jesus makes a detailed distinction, claiming a higher degree of difficulty for certain people under certain circumstances.

WHY?

I believe the event takes place in the future in Israel as the enemies or armies of Israel are approaching and those living in Israel has to flee. The stores are closed during sabbath so supplies needed won't be available due to the sabbath laws enforced in those days

 

[precepts]

Actually, it does. For the "666" in Revelation 13:17c-18 refers to the number six hundred and sixty-six, the number of the name of the individual man who is the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast). The number of a name (Revelation 13:17c-18, Revelation 15:2) is determined by employing the ancient method of gematria, by which numerical values are assigned to the letters of any alphabet as follows: the first nine letters are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet. In Revelation 13:18, the "counting", the adding up, of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name should be done in the same way that the gematrial numerical values of the 3 Greek letters (Chi, Xi, and Stigma) at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) are added up to arrive at the number six hundred and sixty-six.

There's nowhere in scripture telling anyone the number of the Beast's name has to be added up by using the letters in his name. I explained that in the post that you totally ignored, but those with understanding will understand and see.

The numerical values of the letters of the ancient Greek alphabet (including the 3 obsolete letters of Stigma, Qoppa, and Sampi) were as follows: Alpha = 1, Beta = 2, Gamma = 3, Delta = 4, Epsilon = 5, Stigma = 6, Zeta = 7, Eta = 8, Theta = 9, Iota = 10, Kappa = 20, Lambda = 30, Mu = 40, Nu = 50, Xi = 60, Omikron = 70, Pi = 80, Qoppa = 90, Rho = 100, Sigma = 200, Tau = 300, Upsilon = 400, Phi = 500, Chi = 600, Psi = 700, Omega = 800, Sampi = 900.

Just as the numerical values of Chi, Xi, and Stigma at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the Textus Receptus) add up to 666, so the numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18).

There is nowhere in scripture saying you have to add up the numerical value of the letters in the Beast's name. This idea came from man, not God. The number of the name of the Beast is 666 because the Beast is a host of 666 entities, all being one being, as the 4 angels numbered 200 million.

Each of these 4 angels is a host of 50 million entities, but are still one being. I base this fact on Num chpt 1's wording:

Num 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls;

Num 1:3 From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies.
Num 1:4 And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers.

If believers think that someone is the Antichrist, they need to check and make sure that his name adds up to 666 in gematria (Revelation 13:17c-18). If it doesn't, then he isn't the Antichrist.

God identified the Beast in Revelation, and using gematria isn't one of the ways described.

The Antichrist also has to come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25).

Dan 8 is not about the antichrist. The greek lil horn is the one who defiles the sanctuary and stops the daily sacrifice during the Greek occupation of Israel. There's no greek lil horn post Grecia. The antichrist is mentioned nowhere in Daniel because the Beast is the 8th Roman horn in Daniel 7's mention of the 10 horns of the 4th beast kingdom. Only the ten horns are mention with the 11th horn coming up among the ten. Daniel elaborates more on the 11th horn, who is the false prophet, because the body of the beast being burnt and given to the fire, in Dan 7:11, represents the Beast and the false prophet in Revelation's account. Their thrones were cast down and the sons of God thrones were established. They gained control of the heavenly kingdom So, get your facts straight!

These kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and have a name like (for example) "Nabil Abdullah Falakal al-Hakim", which adds up to 666.

You strain on the gnat and swallow the camel whole. Daniel shows the order of the kingdoms. Rome is the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel, the 1st and 2nd beast in Revelation, because Revelation is during the occuptation of Rome. There's no gap between the kingdoms, nor gaps in the image.

But if a man from the Middle East has a name which adds up to 666, even this doesn't assure that he's the Antichrist. For he also has to sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). Once he does that, there won't be any room for doubt over whether or not he's the Antichrist; his identity will have been definitely revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4).

I already posted the site address for Flavius' antichrist oracles.

Regarding the claim (made by some) that Nero's name in Hebrew added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling?

Didn't you read my thread, it doesn't matter because Julius Caesar wasn't the 1st Roman Emperor but Augustus. Nero isn't the 6th but the 5th. There's no need to add anything because he isn't the 6th Roman Emperor. Why do you ignore the facts?!

Also, any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

It can't if it's factual! Mistaken teachings are unfactual. The fact the antichrist has come and gone is factual. It's recorded in Dan chpt. 7, the Roman 11th horn/king/emperor (aka the lil horn, the false prophet) thrown into the lake of fire alive (with the Beast in Revelation, in 98 ad) which is the beginning of the 1,000 yrs reign in the heavenly Shalem, awaiting the second (Gog and Magog) attack after the 1,000 yrs reign to be thrown into the lake of fire (not the "Devil") where the Beast and the false prophet are. This is all fulfilled and confirmed by Daniel's 70 wks prophecy and the abomination of desolation being placed during the Greek occupation of Israel, being 1290 yrs to the consummation, the entering into the New Heavenly Shalem.

It is you carnal interpretation of scripture that's blinding you to the spiritual fulfillment of the last days prophecies.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15).

That wasn't the point. My argument was Nero wasn't the 6th Roman Emperor, the Beast is scripturally the 8th.

And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

I don't know why you don't read what others have read. The fact is John had to of written Revelation, regardless of your pagan source, in 68-69 ad because of the phrase, "five are fallen and one is ..." which describes the Roman "Yr of 4 Emperors," the yr of Roman civil wars after Nero's death in 68, the "wars and rumours of wars" surrounding the signs of the time of Shalem's destruction, as prophecied by Christ, as the signs of the beginning of his kingdom, and the birth pains.

Let us debate the facts, please.

 

[precepts]

Are you saying that the mark of the beast is received by people adding a name to their name?

Originally posted by precepts:
The second flaw is Nero's name equaling 666. The scriptures warn of accepting the mark, the name, or the number of the Beast's name; which by the way, was the name Josephus (and all others) had to adopt to become Roman citizens in Titus Flavius Vespasianus' time, the Beast, the scriptural 8th, the historical 9th Roman Emperor.

A simple reading comprehension problem.

The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

Where does it say that?! You keep coming up with these unfounded accusations, trying to pass them off as factual. Where does it say?! Based on the context, it seems to me to be secular since you won't be able to buy or sell with out it. A law that could only be enforced by an ancient time pagan dictator like a Roman emperor.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people.

You keep stating your opinions like you have authority on the subject. The scriptures say, the mark, the name, or the number of the name. It's three different things. You don't have to have all three, just one, even just the name.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4).

Get the facts straignt!

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

There's no life after death. You've misunderstood the context of all the verses except the one about being the same day with Christ in Paradise. Christ and scripture both say he didn't ascend right away to his father. The context is the same as "that generation" not tasting death until they witness Christ coming on the clouds.

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned (but he won't say that he's the Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Sounds like a fairy tale. Two men will work miracles and make the mesmerized people to take marks on their palms and foreheads, won't seem strange at all!

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it's transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

The saga continues?

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it's not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the world at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16,17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

From the sound of it, they will probably be cape wearing supermen.





The "WWW" which has been placed on many web addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some web addresses having "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes, for Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.[/quote]The mark wasn't a secretive thing. It was secularly instituted on the then known whole world. There wasn't any hiding the fact or out of context conditions for the facts. As a member of this world ruling power, you had to take the mark or die.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being the Christ.

Those would be obvious tell tale signs. You sure your not part of this plan? How do you know so much details about the events?

 

[Bible2]

parousia70 said in post 141:

Your answer would be universal for people, pregnant, nursing, on the sabbath or NOT.

Actually, it wouldn't be. For those without cars could have to walk to earlier-prepared places of refuge. And some Christians choose to observe the sabbath.

parousia70 said in post 141:

Your answer claims a universal degree of "difficulty" for all people fleeing.

Note that it doesn't.

parousia70 said in post 141:

Jesus said it would be MORE difficult for pregnant, nursing mothers or on the sabbath.

If they need to walk to their places of refuge, or choose to observe the sabbath.

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 143:

There's nowhere in scripture telling anyone the number of the Beast's name has to be added up by using the letters in his name.

The "wisdom" given in Revelation 13:18 is that six hundred and sixty-six is the number of the Antichrist's name (Revelation 13:17c-18). And the "understanding" in Revelation 13:18 that's required to properly "count", to add up, the number of his name, is having an understanding of gematria, which scripture itself employs with the 3 Greek letters at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), and which scriptural gematria, sadly, many Christians today are either unaware of, or, even if they know about it, they refuse to employ it, mistakenly thinking that it's occult numerology/divination.

In Revelation 13:18, the original Greek word (psephizo, G5585) translated as "count" means to enumerate, to add up, like someone should "count (psephizo) the cost" (Luke 14:28), add up the cost, of building a tower before he starts building it, so he can make sure that he has enough money to finish it, and so won't be mocked by people if he runs out of money after laying only the tower's foundation (Luke 14:28-30).

Also, there are some verses in the Bible where in order to for us to understand them properly today, we need to recover the common, extra-Biblical knowledge that people back in Bible times already had without the Bible having to give it to them.

For example, when Revelation 6:6 says "A measure of wheat for a penny", the original Greek says a "choinix" of wheat for a "denarion". But the Bible doesn't explain how big a measure a choinix is or how much money a denarion is. For back when Revelation 6:6 was written, those who knew Greek already knew how big a measure a choinix was and how much money a denarion was. But today we need to go to extra-Biblical sources to recover the knowledge that a denarion was a full day's wages, and a choinix was probably about a quart. So Revelation 6:6 is saying that food will be so expensive that someone will have to work an entire day just to be able to buy a quart of wheat. But without going to extra-Biblical sources to properly understand Revelation 6:6, we today could read the KJV of that verse and go away with completely the wrong idea: that food will be so cheap that we will be able buy a measure of wheat for just a penny.

Just as the translators of the words of the Greek scriptures into English had to learn from extra-Biblical sources what those Greek words meant before they could translate them into English, so translators of Revelation 13:18 in the original Greek Textus Receptus had to learn from extra-Biblical sources that the last 3 Greek letters in that verse stand for 3 different numbers, according to the rules of gematria, and that those numbers have to be added together, again according to the rules of gematria, before the translators could properly translate those 3 different Greek letters into the number six hundred and sixty-six.

precepts said in post 143:

Num 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls;

Note that Numbers 1:2 refers to the total number (the sum) of plural names, as in the total number of a plural people who existed in the past, whereas Revelation 13:17-18 and Revelation 15:2 refer to the gematrial number (the sum of the gematrial values of the letters) of the singular name of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast").

precepts said in post 143:

God identified the Beast in Revelation, and using gematria isn't one of the ways described.

Actually, it is, with regard to the singular name of the individual-man aspect of that beast (Revelation 13:17-18).

precepts said in post 143:

Dan 8 is not about the antichrist.

In Daniel 8, the ram represented the ancient empire of the Medes and Persians (Daniel 8:20). The goat represented the ancient empire of the Greeks, beginning with Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:21). After he died, his empire was broken up into 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms (Daniel 8:22).

The Antichrist will come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one these 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms. For whereas Antiochus IV could have fulfilled Daniel 8:9,23-25 typically, the Antichrist will fulfill it antitypically. The Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 8:24a because he will be mighty but not by his own power (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). He will fulfill Daniel 8:24b because he will prosper and will physically destroy the holy people, the church (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). He will fulfill Daniel 8:25a because he will magnify himself (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And he will fulfill Daniel 8:25b because he will stand up against the Prince of princes (Revelation 19:19) and will be broken without hand (Revelation 19:20).

precepts said in post 143:

The antichrist is mentioned nowhere in Daniel because the Beast is the 8th Roman horn in Daniel 7's mention of the 10 horns of the 4th beast
kingdom.

The Antichrist/beast is from the 11th/little horn of the 4th beast/empire's territory in Daniel 7.

precepts said in post 143:

Rome is the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel, the 1st and 2nd beast in Revelation, because Revelation is during the occuptation of Rome.

See the 2nd section of post 134.

precepts said in post 143:

Rome is the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel, the 1st and 2nd beast in Revelation, because Revelation is during the occuptation of Rome.

Regarding the "2nd beast in Revelation", the beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a (secretly apostate) pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

--

If a (secretly apostate) pope does become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand that he be removed for heresy and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops, and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).

And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him and eventually even elect their own, new pope, who they could declare to be the "True pope". But this new, "True pope" could then be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the Third Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops, and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the true church (which consists of all true believers, whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 143:

The fact the antichrist has come and gone is factual. It's recorded in Dan chpt. 7, the Roman 11th horn/king/emperor (aka the lil horn, the false prophet) thrown into the lake of fire alive (with the Beast in Revelation, in 98 ad) which is the beginning of the 1,000 yrs reign in the heavenly Shalem, awaiting the second (Gog and Magog) attack after the 1,000 yrs reign to be thrown into the lake of fire (not the "Devil") where the Beast and the false prophet are.

Regarding the idea of the millennium beginning in 98 AD, note that there are at least 8 different scriptural reasons for reading the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' future 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, whereas currently he's walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there's no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but not until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

precepts said in post 143:

The fact the antichrist has come and gone is factual. It's recorded in Dan chpt. 7, the Roman 11th horn/king/emperor (aka the lil horn, the false prophet) thrown into the lake of fire alive (with the Beast in Revelation, in 98 ad) which is the beginning of the 1,000 yrs reign in the heavenly Shalem, awaiting the second (Gog and Magog) attack after the 1,000 yrs reign to be thrown into the lake of fire (not the "Devil") where the Beast and the false prophet are.

Regarding the idea of the millennium being a reign in heaven, Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years, for the 1,000 years will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the 1,000 years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the 1,000 years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the 1,000 years. There's no reason to exclude the 1,000 years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there's no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

precepts said in post 143:

This is all fulfilled and confirmed by Daniel's 70 wks prophecy and the abomination of desolation being placed during the Greek occupation of Israel, being 1290 yrs to the consummation, the entering into the New Heavenly Shalem.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 143:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Just as partial preterism admits that Jesus skips thousands of years in Matthew 24:30, so partial preterism should be able to admit that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming, for it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit, for it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

precepts said in post 143:

My argument was Nero wasn't the 6th Roman Emperor, the Beast is scripturally the 8th.

Note that it hasn't been said that Nero was the 6th Roman Emperor, or that the future empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") won't be scripturally the 8th head (i.e. the 8th empire) of that beast in its empire aspect. (See the 2nd section of post 134)

*******

precepts said in post 144:

The scriptures say, the mark, the name, or the number of the name. It's three different things.

One of the meanings of the original Greek word ("e", G2228) translated as "or" in Revelation 13:17 is "either" (1 Corinthians 14:6). The second "or" in Revelation 13:17 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) should be read as "either": "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark: either the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (cf. also the NIV). Revelation 14:11 subsequently refers synecdochically to just the first of the two options: "the mark of his name". And Revelation 15:2 refers synecdochically to just the second option: the mark of the number of his name (in the original Greek Textus Receptus of Revelation 15:2, there's no "and" between "over his mark" and "over the number of his name").

precepts said in post 144:

There's no life after death.

Are you referring to the idea of "soul sleep"? If so, only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

--

Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they're referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness ultimately being based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13).

precepts said in post 144:

Christ and scripture both say he didn't ascend right away to his father.

After his resurrection. But Jesus' soul didn't go into hell when he died (as is sometimes claimed), but into heaven into the hands of God the Father (Luke 23:46). The same day he died, Jesus' soul went into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is up in the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), and which is where the tree of life is (Revelation 2:7), in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2), up in heaven (Hebrews 12:22).

precepts said in post 144:

The context is the same as "that generation" not tasting death until they witness Christ coming on the clouds.

Note that Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Mark 9:1 don't refer to "that generation". And they were fulfilled at the subsequent transfiguration (Matthew 16:28 to 17:9, Luke 9:27-36, Mark 9:1-9; 2 Peter 1:16-18).

Also, Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming, he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming, he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or physically changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, he will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[smashed4christ]

Nero died June 9 68AD.

However John writes from the Roman penal colony on the isle of Patmos and clearly conveys that the beast that was (earthly Jerusalem) was not (70AD) then he says the sixth king is still alive after the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem.

So it is obvious that the remnant of the Jews not killed were sent to the Roman penal colonies for hard labour.

John writes his revelation when he is already a country-less Jew rejected and outcast by his people and without a country to go back to because it was destroyed.

The sixth King was king Agrippa II who was exiled to Rome and later died in 92AD. This means the five other deceased kings are the Herodean dynasty from Herod the Great who massacred children two years and under to King Agrippa II who were all instrumental in being ridden by the first Babylonian mother harlot, the LEVITICAL religious system who was chasing them from town to town and city to city.

Adding to this the seventh king who has yet manifested must also be Jewish in order to be believed by the Jews to be worshipped as the false messiah.

You can't make the Roman kings fit all these facts.

The seventh king is also said to be a resurrected eighth king who is a symbol of the resurrected messiah but is in fact the false universal messiah who needs to be Jewish in order to be believed by the Jewish nation today who is the first beast with its head wound being healed in 1948, awaiting for this seven king to reign from earthly Jerusalem.

A roman king will never be considered as the messiah by the Jews.

 

[parousia70]

Nero died June 9 68AD.

However John writes from the Roman penal colony on the isle of Patmos and clearly conveys that the beast that was (earthly Jerusalem) was not (70AD) then he says the sixth king is still alive after the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem.

Except that John wrote Revelation from Patmos prior to AD 70, as the majority of Scholarly opinion affirms.

 

[precepts]

The "wisdom" given in Revelation 13:18 is that six hundred and sixty-six is the number of the Antichrist's name (Revelation 13:17c-18). And the "understanding" in Revelation 13:18 that's required to properly "count", to add up, the number of his name, is having an understanding of gematria, which scripture itself employs with the 3 Greek letters at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus),

Are the three letters different from the other letters used in Revelation? No. You keep stressing this as if the author used three different letters to hint to gematria. He doesn't. You keep stressing this counting while ignoring the fact that I proved in the last thread of having to take one of the three things of the beast. You keep stressing your point of view, talking about wisdom, and ignoring the fact. The 4 Euphrates angels numbered 200 million entities. Why don't you address that facts? Isn't that one of the clues to counting the number of the name of the Beast?

In Revelation 13:18, the original Greek word (psephizo, G5585) translated as "count" means to enumerate, to add up, like someone should "count (psephizo) the cost" (Luke 14:28), add up the cost, of building a tower before he starts building it, so he can make sure that he has enough money to finish it, and so won't be mocked by people if he runs out of money after laying only the tower's foundation (Luke 14:28-30).

If the 4 angels number 200 million entities, and I provided Num 1:1-4 as an example of what Revelation could mean in counting the number of the name of the Beast, couldn't that be wisdom too? Gematria only came about because someone suggested it. It's not one of the criterias/clues left in scriptures to be used. This same gematria could very well be the tool to fool people into thinking the Beast isn't who the scriptures say he is because the letters in his name doesn't add up to 666! That could very well be the purpose why gematria was introduced.

Also, there are some verses in the Bible where in order to for us to understand them properly today, we need to recover the common, extra-Biblical knowledge that people back in Bible times already had without the Bible having to give it to them.

And how do you do that without reading and understanding the laws of Moses?

For example, when Revelation 6:6 says "A measure of wheat for a penny", the original Greek says a "choinix" of wheat for a "denarion". But the Bible doesn't explain how big a measure a choinix is or how much money a denarion is. For back when Revelation 6:6 was written, those who knew Greek already knew how big a measure a choinix was and how much money a denarion was. But today we need to go to extra-Biblical sources to recover the knowledge that a denarion was a full day's wages, and a choinix was probably about a quart.

Could you please tell me what's the significance? I do agree there are some verses misunderstood because of the lack of knowledge of the times, but they have to be relevant to prophecy.

So Revelation 6:6 is saying that food will be so expensive that someone will have to work an entire day just to be able to buy a quart of wheat. But without going to extra-Biblical sources to properly understand Revelation 6:6, we today could read the KJV of that verse and go away with completely the wrong idea: that food will be so cheap that we will be able buy a measure of wheat for just a penny.

Which has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Rev 6:6 is talking about that change during the rise of these Beasts, the drought and pestilences on all nations by these Beast kingdoms. Something you obviously didn't know because you're not studying scriptural chronology and context.

Just as the translators of the words of the Greek scriptures into English had to learn from extra-Biblical sources what those Greek words meant before they could translate them into English, so translators of Revelation 13:18 in the original Greek Textus Receptus had to learn from extra-Biblical sources that the last 3 Greek letters in that verse stand for 3 different numbers, according to the rules of gematria, and that those numbers have to be added together, again according to the rules of gematria, before the translators could properly translate those 3 different Greek letters into the number six hundred and sixty-six.

Wouldn't three different letters stand for three different numbers? I don't understand what you're claiming?

Note that Numbers 1:2 refers to the total number (the sum) of plural names,

it doesn't. Each sum is of each tribe with it's head, an army.

as in the total number of a plural people who existed in the past, whereas Revelation 13:17-18 and Revelation 15:2 refer to the gematrial number (the sum of the gematrial values of the letters) of the singular name of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast").

I'm glad you put the phrase "sum of gematrail values" in parentheses because scripture doesn't say that.

The word "sum" is mentioned both in Revelation and Numbers also.

Actually, it is, with regard to the singular name of the individual-man aspect of that beast (Revelation 13:17-18).

You're straining on the gnat, friend.

In Daniel 8, the ram represented the ancient empire of the Medes and Persians (Daniel 8:20). The goat represented the ancient empire of the Greeks, beginning with Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:21). After he died, his empire was broken up into 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms (Daniel 8:22).

The Antichrist will come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one these 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms.

You're distorting scripture. It doesn't say he will come from what "used to be part of one of those countries," but he came from the northern country, the king of the north, which was the Seleucid kingdom, Antiochus III the Great.

For whereas Antiochus IV could have fulfilled Daniel 8:9,23-25 typically, the Antichrist will fulfill it antitypically.

I already told you the greek lil horn is not the antichrist. The antichrist isn't mentioned anywhere in Daniel. Why are you repeating the same stuff we've been over before? Try to acknowledge the facts.

The Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 8:24a because he will be mighty but not by his own power (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). He will fulfill Daniel 8:24b because he will prosper and will physically destroy the holy people, the church (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There's no need to go any further with this thread because you're ignoring everything I've written. Rome conquers the Greek lil horn, and the abomination of desolation was the removing/ending of the Aaronic priestly lineage that last thru out the Maccabean heresy, thru the temple destruction, until the "consummation," which is the new heavenly Shalem.

THIS IS SUPPOSEDLY A DEBATE FORUM. DEBATE THE FACTS.

 

[Time Watcher]

The little horn of Daniel's visions is the human component of the future "antichrist"

The prophet's fulfilled visions are exactly congruent with recorded history for all prior subjects

If you do not compare the Bible with the actual history record correctly you will end up with an incorrect rendering

And in regard to the topic of when the Lord's own revelation was recorded with regard to the preteristic vs futuristic view .... this question is totally moot

It makes no difference .... the Book of Revelation is a view of what must take place "hereafter" could be placed in scripture anywhere and still tell the same thing

The fact is that none of the events recorded beginning in Chapter 4 have ever taken place in heaven or on the earth .... John's spirit was taken into the future to be shown things that have never yet taken place .... all of them from 4:4 through 19:21 and beyond

If you do not discover this truth you will never grasp the full and overall
complete, correct, and comprehensive view of the Lord's total word of prophecy including that of His Bible prophets and of His own projections

 

[precepts]

Regarding the idea of the millennium beginning in 98 AD, note that there are at least 8 different scriptural reasons for reading the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' future 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

The foundation stones for Daniel's prophecy is the middle of the week confirmation of the covenant in Dan 9:27. The desolation of abomination is verified in Dan 8:11 and Dan 11:31 as the greek lil horn (king of the north) with it's chronology of the Greek kings. Regardless of you not wanting to accept the confirmation of Israel's covenant post Babylon, you have to accept Dan 8:11 and Dan 11:31's facts. You also have to accept Dan 3:27's statement of the desolation lasting until the "consummation."

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Which obviously is Revelation. You have to accept the fact the abomination and the covenant (the Aaronic High Priest line) are defiled and stop during this middle of the week until revelation's pouring out of the vials, and the entering in to the New Shalem, the "consummation."


This means that in Christ's time, what was set up by the Phariesees and Sadducees, was part of the abomination of desolation. The surrounding of Shalem by armies was the sign of the coming of Revelation's war with the Beast, and the beginning of Christ's heavenly kingdom. Revelation describes the chronology of the Roman beasts that were to arise.

The antichrist is one of the prophecies of the abomination of desolation in it's continuation. This was the beginning of the birth pains.

Revelation completes the abomination of desolation NT prophecy. Five are fallen and one is, rumors of wars. The Beast/antichrist is the 8th Roman horn, and the false prophet is the 11th.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Which is the beginning of Revelation when the 11th horn is cast into the lake of fire. The rest of the beasts have their lives prolonged for a season.

So Christ wasn't decieved when he said these were the signs of his coming.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

[precepts]

The little horn of Daniel's visions is the human component of the future "antichrist"

The prophet's fulfilled visions are exactly congruent with recorded history for all prior subjects

If you do not compare the Bible with the actual history record correctly you will end up with an incorrect rendering

And in regard to the topic of when the Lord's own revelation was recorded with regard to the preteristic vs futuristic view .... this question is totally moot

It makes no difference .... the Book of Revelation is a view of what must take place "hereafter" could be placed in scripture anywhere and still tell the same thing

The fact is that none of the events recorded beginning in Chapter 4 have ever taken place in heaven or on the earth .... John's spirit was taken into the future to be shown things that have never yet taken place .... all of them from 4:4 through 19:21 and beyond

If you do not discover this truth you will never grasp the full and overall
complete, correct, and comprehensive view of the Lord's total word of prophecy including that of His Bible prophets and of His own projections

Wher is the ark of the testiment seen in Revelation? Which temple in Revelation does the angel come out of and go in?

 

[Time Watcher]

The Lord's temple in "heaven" .... He has one there and Revelation switches back and forth from "heaven" to the earth as the narrative unfolds

This temple is mentioned several times in Revelation's unfolding .... His angels are there .... and the ark is seen there

 

[precepts]

Just as partial preterism admits that Jesus skips thousands of years in Matthew 24:30, so partial preterism should be able to admit that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

There's no 2,000 yrs gap in no prophecy in scripture. Everything Christ proclaimed in parable were fulfilled by 98 ad when the 11th horn/king (the historical 12th Roman Emperor) was casted alive into the lake of fire with the Beast, the beginning of the 1,000yrs reign in the heavenly Zion.

Eze 12:22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?
Eze 12:23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision.

God is not a liar.

One of the meanings of the original Greek word ("e", G2228) translated as "or" in Revelation 13:17 is "either" (1 Corinthians 14:6). The second "or" in Revelation 13:17 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) should be read as "either": "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark: either the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (cf. also the NIV). Revelation 14:11 subsequently refers synecdochically to just the first of the two options: "the mark of his name". And Revelation 15:2 refers synecdochically to just the second option: the mark of the number of his name (in the original Greek Textus Receptus of Revelation 15:2, there's no "and" between "over his mark" and "over the number of his name").

The point being it's one of the three. You don't have to have the mark, you could have the name or the number of the name.

Are you referring to the idea of "soul sleep"? If so, only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

All that is true, but the the soul that goes to God is not the person present with God but the breath God gave.

So the souls of the dead remain conscious

, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24).

None of this is true. You're taking the verses out of context. The soul can't remain conscious because the sleep isn't a sleep where one can dream. Christ calls it sleep because it's not death.

All will rise again to everlasting life or everlasting punishment, the real death, the 2nd death of burning in the lake of fire forever and ever.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Pure foolishness.

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28).

The second death is death because it's forever, created for the immortal Devil and his angels.

How does and immortal creatures put on mortality? They dont'. If it was possible then they wouldn't of been immortal.

And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. All will recieve their immortal bodies in their resurrections.

--

[/quote]Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they're referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).[/quote]I'm sure all these verses are out of context. Christ said there's no life in the grave, atleast for the righteous. When the witch raised Samuel's spirit for Saul, Samuel arose from the grave spritually. He arose from his slumber of death and became conscious which is what all pagan religions practice when they practice ancestor worship. The only way I can explain this is the soul is really the immortal body, the spirit.

Believe it or not but they are some here today that transform their fleshly bodies into the immortal bodies that look like fleshly bodies. An example is Christ rising from the dead, walking thru the wal like a spirit, and eating flesh. They thought he was a spirit but he still felt like flesh and blood. That's the resurrection body, I believe.

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13).

That's the way the pagans do it.

 

[precepts]

The Lord's temple in "heaven" .... He has one there and Revelation switches back and forth from "heaven" to the earth as the narrative unfolds

This temple is mentioned several times in Revelation's unfolding .... His angels are there .... and the ark is seen there

And that is where Revelation wars takes place. The war is for the heavenly kingdom, not the earthly one. The wars extended for the first war in heaven, Satan trying to exalt his throne in heaven.

 

[Time Watcher]

Only one

All of the rest are on the earth

 

[precepts]

Nope!

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 153:

The foundation stones for Daniel's prophecy is the middle of the week confirmation of the covenant in Dan 9:27.

Regarding Daniel 9:27, back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be the fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he's (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

*******

precepts said in post 156:

Eze 12:22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?
Eze 12:23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision.

God is not a liar.

Amen.

But Ezekiel 12:21-28 applies only to every prophecy regarding Ezekiel's contemporaries, not every prophecy given by God up to that time or afterward. For example, the prophecy in Isaiah 53 was given before the time of Ezekiel, but it wasn't fulfilled in the time of Ezekiel, but at Jesus' first coming.

precepts said in post 156:

You don't have to have the mark, you could have the name or the number of the name.

The mark itself will consist of the name or the number of the name (Revelation 14:11c, Revelation 15:2, Revelation 13:17).

precepts said in post 156:

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 refers to people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it) like Jesus was resurrected into (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom. For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the 2nd coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house and stay there for awhile without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom in their mortal bodies without inheriting the kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the 3rd-heaven aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, the two witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, e.g., the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal bodies won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until after the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the two witnesses will ascend "up" to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies, it doesn't say that they will inherit the 3rd heaven, just as when Paul says that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the 3rd heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the 3rd heaven, and just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the 3rd heaven.

precepts said in post 156:

They thought he was a spirit but he still felt like flesh and blood. That's the resurrection body, I believe.

That's right, except that it is actually flesh.

Believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't actually in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever actually be in the flesh. The Bible shows that Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his actual, human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection or changing of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware of the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator YHWH God as some sort of evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down out of heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.