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mlepfitjw

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Hello you and welcome.

You already know that the book of revelation is one of the most difficult books in the whole Bible, right?

What if it could be made simple for you ?

Without worrying about the insane hebrewic
language that makes it as if a war will end up coming upon us at any moment?

What if we took just a look at the last chapter to find and answer to what is being said over all the other chapters?

In one qualitative look let’s you and me take a gander at revelation 22.


“Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations. No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him. And they will see his face, and his name will be written on their foreheads. And there will be no night there—no need for lamps or sun—for the Lord God will shine on them. And they will reign forever and ever. Then the angel said to me, “Everything you have heard and seen is trustworthy and true. The Lord God, who inspires his prophets, has sent his angel to tell his servants what will happen soon. ” “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed are those who obey the words of prophecy written in this book. ” I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me. But he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!” Then he instructed me, “Do not seal up the prophetic words in this book, for the time is near. Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy.” “Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will be permitted to enter through the gates of the city and eat the fruit from the tree of life. Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star.” The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let anyone who hears this say, “Come.” Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life. And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book. He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus! May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s holy people.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:1-21‬ ‭NLT‬‬


Everyone is going to meet God when they die, and the Lord will repay everyone according to what they had done in their lives.

Believers will be going into the kingdom of God, and unbelievers will be outside the kingdom of God.

Satan has been defeated and you no longer have to fear him. People are only enticed by the desires of their heart and with what the world has to offer.

Everyone will receive a spiritual body, and the kingdom of heaven is a spiritual place, with an outside part that hold unbelievers.

No one ends up in hell to burn alive for eternity, and the gate that is in-between the inside and outside is never closed, leaving a chance for your lost family members to come back to the light or stray off far into the distance away from it into the darkness.

How is this for an Revelation?!

What do you see from this more freedom, and peace with God and the Lord Jesus Christ who conquered over sin, Satan, hell (sheol), and death?

What is there to be afraid of anymore if you receive Christ now in this life and from a relationship with him, and his father?

He comes as soon as you are ready to receive him, we obtain from God the Holy Spirit/spirit of Christ, and a new spiritual body.

No doctrinal demands, just faith, love for God and love for others.
 

Pavel Mosko

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I don't know I take the opposite side, that probably is represented by people like Bible scholar Michael Heiser who has some funny saying like:

1) "I am done protecting people from their Bibles!" (avoiding the more complex more difficult topics).

and


2) (concerning the Bible) "If it's weird..it's important." The Bible references a lot of strange things to modern people, because it comes from a original culture, (actually cultures) that are much different than out own. Rather than try to avoid this stuff, or simplify it etc. instead it is better just to study what the different symbols, idioms etc. meant for the first generation of believers, original culture etc.


 
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mlepfitjw

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Pavel, it is true that we need to have a historical guidance and view when it come to the revelation. It takes knowing the old testament and the new testament along with historical to have a complete understanding. Which my teacher like you have one you like to listen to, has expounded on revelation with history to back it up, along with looking into the old testament narrative. Which has brought him into believing everything basically that I had wrote underneath the Revelation 22 Chapter.

Which I am in agreement with because to me it seems like there is no more fear of Satan, there is no more fear of what is preached from the pulpit about going to hell forever and ever.

Pavel you know the bible tells us we should equate all men to be liars and not to trust them pretty much, and they will make doctrinal demands, they will judge you especially if you are not like them which... I say God bless and that is okay if you wanna believe differently.

(Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.)

I believe that this view is pretty practical if you accept the whole book from Genesis to Revelation as completed history.

You should know that it has been said many times by myself that I am not a predator or prederist person whatever they are called because I have no idea what they believe.

All I know is from the context of the bible Jesus Christ never lied, and neither did the apostles. Nor were the apostles stupid either... some people will say ah well they had no idea about any of these things, which is very much a lie.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I believe that this view is pretty practical if you accept the whole book from Genesis to Revelation as completed history.

What ever gave you the idea that everything the bible says from Genesis 1- Revelation 22 is history ?

Are you claiming there is nothing in the bible that has not been fulfilled, that there is no prophecies yet to be fulfilled ?
 
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Davy

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Everyone is going to meet God when they die, and the Lord will repay everyone according to what they had done in their lives.

Not totally accurate. For those in Christ Jesus, He is our Advocate to The Father for us. He covers our sin as we repent to Him. For the non-believer, they have no way to cover their sins. So comparing the believer and non-believer together as to reaping whatever they sowed does not really work per God's Word.

Believers will be going into the kingdom of God, and unbelievers will be outside the kingdom of God.

This is not completely accurate either. In Matthew 25, the unprofitable servant that buried the one talent he was given to serve his master with was in final cast to the "outer darkness" with the wicked. That's about a slothful believer that just believes and does nothing else. The "outer darkness" represents the place outside the gates of the holy city per Revelation 22:14-15. Furthermore, the five foolish virgins who also represent believers (who had the Oil in lamps) but were deceived, are also turned away by Lord Jesus at His coming. The kingdom of God doesn't come until after the "thousand years" of Rev.20 is over. The Rev.22:14-15 just happens to be Millennial timing, so we have to actually read and rightly divide the timelines written, and not assume timelines just because of a chapter number.


Satan has been defeated and you no longer have to fear him. People are only enticed by the desires of their heart and with what the world has to offer.

I don't quite get that "enticed" idea, which it seems you are placing after Satan is gone. The reality per God's Word is that the heavenly dimension where He and His Eden are now, behind a veil, will return here, on earth, as it was once here per Genesis 2. That future world to come after Satan is cast into the future "lake of fire" will not involve death nor wickedness, so it's not really totally comparable to the things of this present world.

Everyone will receive a spiritual body, and the kingdom of heaven is a spiritual place, with an outside part that hold unbelievers.

The kingdom of heaven will actually be manifest on this earth. The full Godhead is coming back here, on earth to live, as it was once before. There will be no more sea per Rev.21. The heavenly dimension will be joined with the earthly dimension in one time and space. That means an existence upon this earth in an angelic type body, which indeed is the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15.

No one ends up in hell to burn alive for eternity, and the gate that is in-between the inside and outside is never closed, leaving a chance for your lost family members to come back to the light or stray off far into the distance away from it into the darkness.

I believe that. Psalms 37 points to that's how it will actually be. The casting into hell (haides) is not the same thing as the future "lake of fire" event. The abode of the wicked called 'hell' actually goes into the "lake of fire" after Christ's future thousand years reign, and is destroyed (Rev.20).

How is this for an Revelation?!

What do you see from this more freedom, and peace with God and the Lord Jesus Christ who conquered over sin, Satan, hell (sheol), and death?

What is there to be afraid of anymore if you receive Christ now in this life and from a relationship with him, and his father?

He comes as soon as you are ready to receive him, we obtain from God the Holy Spirit/spirit of Christ, and a new spiritual body.

No doctrinal demands, just faith, love for God and love for others.

Most of that, YES, definitely.

But there are... Christian doctrinal demands upon those in Christ Jesus. We still need to repent of future sins to stay in His grace (1 John 1). And especially, we need to keep the Faith, and not allow ourselves to be deceived. That was actually one of our Lord Jesus' strongest warnings for His servants at the end of this world leading up to His return, don't allow any man to deceive you.
 
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Good to see you using that God-given faculty of reason Agallagher to deduce that the ever-open Pearly Gates are good news for the sinners, who can always wash their robes in the Lake of Fire, the real Molten Sea laver, and come in for a refreshing drink of crystal-pure eau de vie. The revelation of Christ may make a universalist of you yet.
 
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Davy

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Not a universalist.

Well this brother, kind of makes you one.

You said:
"No one ends up in hell to burn alive for eternity, and the gate that is in-between the inside and outside is never closed, leaving a chance for your lost family members to come back to the light or stray off far into the distance away from it into the darkness."

There's this matter of the unpardonable sin against The Holy Spirit which Lord Jesus said shall not be forgiven. I'm not going to say who can or can't commit it, but it shows that those who are able and do commit it, will have no chance at repentance, but are doomed to perish in the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign. The Isaiah 24:22 Scripture is pointing to those, and that they are locked in Satan's pit prison with him during Christ's future Millennial reign.
 
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mlepfitjw

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There is only one way, to accept the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart, or accept Gods forgiveness and have faith he exists (if you do not know the name or heard of the Gospels - Jesus). I reject that everyone instantly goes to heaven. Which is what a teacher has personally taught me about universalism. I reject that because there is only one way to access it, and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your comments and God bless you.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Well this brother, kind of makes you one.

You said:
"No one ends up in hell to burn alive for eternity, and the gate that is in-between the inside and outside is never closed, leaving a chance for your lost family members to come back to the light or stray off far into the distance away from it into the darkness."

There's this matter of the unpardonable sin against The Holy Spirit which Lord Jesus said shall not be forgiven. I'm not going to say who can or can't commit it, but it shows that those who are able and do commit it, will have no chance at repentance, but are doomed to perish in the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign. The Isaiah 24:22 Scripture is pointing to those, and that they are locked in Satan's pit prison with him during Christ's future Millennial reign.
yes that results in universalism.
 
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There is only one way, to accept the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart, or accept Gods forgiveness and have faith he exists (if you do not know the name or heard of the Gospels - Jesus). I reject that everyone instantly goes to heaven. Which is what a teacher has personally taught me about universalism. I reject that because there is only one way to access it, and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your comments and God bless you.

Unfortunately, the 'brand' of universalism you learned from your teacher is not what true UR doctrine teaches. UR says everyone gets saved by and through Jesus, then he packages it up with a big bow on it and presents it to the Father, who will then be all in all (1 Cor 15:28).

So we see in Rev 22:17 the 'standing invitation', the encouragement from the Spirit and the Bride, to the effect - 'C'mon don't loiter around in darkness, wash your robes in Lamb's Blood, get baptised in the purifying Lake of Fire, you can do it, we're here to help. Then you can come on up to the House of the Lord, get the water of life healing, is good, is worth it'.

The scenes in Rev 22 are dynamic, action is happening, the Great Renewal of ALL things (Rev 21:5-6) is being consummated.
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="Agallagher There is only one way, to accept the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart, or accept Gods forgiveness and have faith he exists (if you do not know the name or heard of the Gospels - Jesus). I reject that everyone instantly goes to heaven. Which is what a teacher has personally taught me about universalism. I reject that because there is only one way to access it, and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your comments and God bless you.

Well, perhaps you should not be listening to modern teachers and go back to the first couple of centuries when men like St. Gregory Nyssa and St. Maximos the Confessor were guiding the Church. What your "teacher" said is NOT Universalism. No one believing in Universalism teaches such a thing either. Oh, there are some wierd offshoots, but as I said, go back to the beginning to see what Universalism is all about.

Universalists do not teach that everyone instantly goes to heaven. The wicked must be purged of their wickedness and made clean. This is hell. St. Isaac the Syrian taught that the wicked experience the love of God as torment, that they are "scourged by the stripes of God's love." And it will last as long as necessary for each individual and according to that individual's acts here on earth, which is what both Jesus and Paul said.

No, sir, what you said is most distincly not Universalism and I reject it out of hand as a believer in Universal Restoration of all things.
 
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mlepfitjw

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Okay, East. Okay shrew. I still reject it. You can believe it if you want.

I believe in the restoration to, but people who don’t want nothing to do with God will get what they want outside the kingdom of God, they may never come to the light, forever if they do choose it to be that way. Cause of freedom and Gods love of allowing them to. God won’t force anyone to bend there knee if they do not want to otherwise God would be unjust.

in my view anyway I believe all will come to the knowledge of the truth but some will desire to reject it. Also believe the world has be reconciled to God through Jesus act on the cross. The choice doesn’t go away however for individuals. Otherwise what would be the point every person is going to heaven what’s the point in sharing God with others. Or the gospel? All are gonna bow in heaven? Yeah I don’t believe it. All believers sure but those who don’t desire or care, no they are outside the kingdom doing what they want and God allows it.
 
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Light of the East

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Okay, East. Okay shrew. I still reject it. You can believe it if you want.

I believe in the restoration to, but people who don’t want nothing to do with God will get what they want outside the kingdom of God, they may never come to the light, forever if they do choose it to be that way. Cause of freedom and Gods love of allowing them to. God won’t force anyone to bend there knee if they do not want to otherwise God would be unjust.

in my view anyway I believe all will come to the knowledge of the truth but some will desire to reject it. Also believe the world has be reconciled to God through Jesus act on the cross. The choice doesn’t go away however for individuals. Otherwise what would be the point every person is going to heaven what’s the point in sharing God with others. Or the gospel? All are gonna bow in heaven? Yeah I don’t believe it. All believers sure but those who don’t desire or care, no they are outside the kingdom doing what they want and God allows it.

If all people are not restored then it can't be restoration, can it? If people are taken out of the darkness of this illusory life, if the lies they have believed are seen to be what they are, if they see Christ in all His glory and realize that He was what they really wanted all along, how would they possibly reject Him and any chastening which He sees fit to cure them of the illness of sin?

It is in the very nature of human beings to do that which is in their best interest. If a soul, seeing that the sins he pursued were lies, seeing that they have no reality, seeing that they are not Christ Jesus, would see in Christ that union with Him would be the highest best interest of him as a soul, how do you propose that he would reject it?

Are you reading Universalist authors, such as Thomas Talbot, Dr. David Bentley Hart, Brad Parry, etc? You can also listen to them on YouTube. It seems to me that you are attacking a strawman of what Universalism is. Is that the way we find truth?
 
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Davy

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Okay, East. Okay shrew. I still reject it. You can believe it if you want.

I believe in the restoration to, but people who don’t want nothing to do with God will get what they want outside the kingdom of God, they may never come to the light, forever if they do choose it to be that way. Cause of freedom and Gods love of allowing them to. God won’t force anyone to bend there knee if they do not want to otherwise God would be unjust.

in my view anyway I believe all will come to the knowledge of the truth but some will desire to reject it. Also believe the world has be reconciled to God through Jesus act on the cross. The choice doesn’t go away however for individuals. Otherwise what would be the point every person is going to heaven what’s the point in sharing God with others. Or the gospel? All are gonna bow in heaven? Yeah I don’t believe it. All believers sure but those who don’t desire or care, no they are outside the kingdom doing what they want and God allows it.

That's true, not every soul after Jesus' return will believe on Him for their salvation. All knees will bow to Him then, as it is written, but not all souls then will believe on Him to be saved. That is easily known per the end of Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed one final time at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign, and they go up against the camp of the saints, and then God rains fire down from heaven that destroys them. Also, at the Great White Throne Judgment, we are shown those whose names are not found in the book of life are cast into the future "lake of fire", along with the abode of hell and death.

Thus Universalism is nothing but a theory from men.
 
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Light of the East

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That's true, not every soul after Jesus' return will believe on Him for their salvation. All knees will bow to Him then, as it is written, but not all souls then will believe on Him to be saved. That is easily known per the end of Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed one final time at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign, and they go up against the camp of the saints, and then God rains fire down from heaven that destroys them. Also, at the Great White Throne Judgment, we are shown those whose names are not found in the book of life are cast into the future "lake of fire", along with the abode of hell and death.

Thus Universalism is nothing but a theory from men.

Then God lied when He promised to save all, when He said His will is to save all, when He said that all things would be restored. If I can't believe the revelation of the Bible when He said these things, then what can I believe.

BTW - Perhaps there is another way of looking at the Book of Revelation. And what is this "Great White Throne" Judgment of which you speak? I only see one judgment in the Scriptures??
 
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mlepfitjw

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Hello Davy, it has been taught to me about how God reconciled the whole world to himself by paying all sins for mankind to be forgiven.

It's a choice to accept this forgiveness or not. They are forgiven everything they are doing in their life today, from the darkest sins you can think of, to the lightest sins you can think of.

All of it has been paid for Jesus Christ has saved them, but as you said. They do not believe, they reject and desire nothing to do with the light at all.

Light of The East, I will not debate or argue with you about your belief system. You can be right in your own mind if you choose to believe how you desire when it comes down to your own ways, if you choose to.

All I know is that the End Chapter is the final Revelation that shows people outside of the Kingdom of God, and People Inside. In my thesis of 'the rest of the book of revelation from 1-21 is completed leaving the final chapter 22 rendered as the final view of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Also believe that the lake of fire was made for Satan and his angels (demons?), not for human beings.

Anyway listen, you believe how you desire. There is no point in me trying to defend my view for it is my view and people can accept it or reject it.

@Shrewd Manager Thank you for your comments. And you may believe how ever you desire brother! God bless all of you and may the Lord Jesus Christ of Peace with with you.
 
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Anyway listen, you believe how you desire. There is no point in me trying to defend my view for it is my view and people can accept it or reject it.

We're not berating you for your view, partial and incoherent as it is lol. But please don't keep spreading falsehoods about UR. It's very simple, we believe that people will come to Christ and be saved, ALL of them. And Rev 22 supports this. Reprobates plus darkness plus invitation & encouragement equals eventual salvation, guaranteed.

A little like 'The spy who came in from the cold'. Can't survive forever incognito in halfway houses on the other side of enemy lines. Jesus will bring them in.
 
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