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Revelation: The Bride, The Beast & Babylon

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Leuko Petra, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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    There is no division in the gospel of Christ among the mainstream churches. Theological points are different. None of the mainstream churches reject ANY part of the gospel of Christ.



    APOSTASY [ə pŏsˊtə sĭ] (Gk. apostasía).† A term designating the falling away (Gk. apó “away from” and stásis “rebellion”) from the faith.

    Myers, A. C. (1987). The Eerdmans Bible dictionary (66). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

    APOSTASY Act of rebelling against, forsaking, abandoning, or falling away from what one has believed.

    Fink, M. (2003). Apostasy. In C. Brand, C. Draper, A. England, S. Bond, E. R. Clendenen & T. C. Butler (Eds.), Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary (C. Brand, C. Draper, A. England, S. Bond, E. R. Clendenen & T. C. Butler, Ed.) (87). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.

    apos•ta•sy \ə-ˈpäs-tə-sē\ noun
    plural -sies [Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo- + histasthai to stand — more at STAND] 14th century
    1 : renunciation of a religious faith
    2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION


    Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

    aphístēmi. Transitive “to remove” either spatially or within a relationship, “to win over,” “to seduce,” middle “to remove oneself,” “to resign,” “desist,” “fall away.”

    Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (88). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.

    686 ἀποστασία (apostasia), ας (as), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ Str 646; TDNT 1.513—LN 39.34 rebellion, an abandonment, an apostasy (Ac 21:21; 2Th 2:3+)

    Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

    No, apostasy is about losing faith. Walking in error is a result of apostasy.


    Bunk. You give the pope too much credit. He only has authority over his own congregation.



    1 Timothy 4:1: the Greek word τινες rendered as some is an indefinite pronoun and is substantive. It does not refer to just a few but to many.



    Give me an example
     
  2. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    I would contend that most churches don't really know what the gospel entails in full. They speak of Christ who came and died, and rose again, but the fullness of that truth alludes them.

    What I was trying to say was that even someone who still professes a belief in God can be in the midst of apostasy because they have accepted something that is not true, and are walking in error deliberately because of a hardened heart.

    It's not bunk, and you don't give him enough. Scripture says the world will wander after the beast, and that the beast deceived the whole world.

    I think the problem we're running into here is understanding what apostasy is, and what it means to fall away from the faith.


    Israel. Their entire history is fraught with generations who lived in a state of apostacy while professing to worship the true God. Consider the state of Israel when Christ came.
     
  3. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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    I would contend that most mainstream churches have the fullness of the Gospel of Christ. We will remain at an impasse here.


    By that logic, were the SDA's in apostasy when they followed the non-trinitarian beliefs of EGW?



    The beast is not the pope. It is bunk. If you don't want to pay attention to the pope then don't. Is that simple. Your church's preoccupation with the pope is nonsensical.



    I posted five different dictionary's definitions. All of them refer to apostasy as a falling out of faith not as a an acceptance of error.



    God has already dealt with Israel. I was referring to the time frame that we were talking about (from the apostles forward).
     
  4. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Works for me.

    I threw "dilerberate" and "hardened heart" in there for a reason. Second, Sr White was never "non-trinitarian", and if she were for arguments sake, she would have likely gained that understanding from her time as a Methodist.

    You missed the point entirely though. There's a difference between being in error because you haven't learned yet, and being in error because you choose to walk that way because of pride.


    I understand why you feel that way. You figure that you'll be raptured out of here so it doesn't really matter if you know who the beast is, or the false prophet, or the whore, or any of that stuff. It's not bunk though.

    Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. The dictionary can't help with that.

    Israel was still being dealt with during the time of the Apostles. The scriptures weren't exclusive to the gentiles. Israel had rejected Christ but were continuing on with their sacrifices as if they had some meaning. That is a perfect example of apostasy.
     
  5. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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  6. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Well that's a conversation that's way off topic wouldn't you say? Suffice it to say that whatever she believed at the onset is irrelevant given that she died professing that Father, Son, and Spirit are all God. All eternal. All separate.


    Again, that's why I put in the "deliberate" and "hardened heart" thing. Essentially that describes those who have a form of godliness only. All such people are in a state of apostasy.

    Another impasse

    Got it from Paul.

    If you think so. I do believe your rapture theory is contributing heavily to your inability to see the apostasy that has occured, and that continues to build.
     
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Excellent! :thumbsup:

    Mat 23:36
    verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

    Luk 21:23
    "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
    For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    "I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
    if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

    In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
    Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people,

    Rev 14:8
    And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great City,
    because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."




    .
     
  8. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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    That's not what the record shows, but you are right in that this topic is off topic to the thread. I'm sure someone will start one dealing with this topic in the near future. ;):)



    But you can't quantify your argument. Many individuals meet your litmus test but nothing in a mass scale.



    Not here. There are no pre-reformation theologians, including in the first five centuries, that believe what you propose. This makes it problematic for your camp.



    I have not even hinted at the rapture theory so you are assuming and you know what assuming does, right? ;)^_^

    Again, can you show an event that caused a mass apostasy since the apostles?
     
  9. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    This again is something that we won't come to an agreement on because we understand apostasy differntly.

    No it doesn't. Truth isn't determined by how many people believe it. I can't help what theologians from the past thought.


    Something that will satisfy you? Apparently not.
     
  10. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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    But you are yet to defend your definition of apostasy. Simply stating that is spiritual does not work since faith is spiritual also.

    Is not a matter of how many people believe it but what matters is that there is no belief that matches yours during the early church. All of your belief comes from the post-reformation theologians. Your compadre in this thread has made that obvious. ;)



    Well, you claim that the great apostasy has already happened while I contend that it has not since the verbs in scripture indicate a future event. However, you can't point to a mass apostasy since the apostles so it is not me who you have to satisfy. If you can't defend what you believe then your belief is blind.
     
  11. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

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    The research is quite complete if you will please re-read what was presented... about who the "let" is, not who the AntiChristos is. There is a clear difference, please let us not confound the two...

    Early stated basically, "Pagan Rome [4th Iron Kingdom] was the "let" [hindrance] to the coming of Anti-Christ...":
    http://www.christianforums.com/t7766317-2/#post63948599

    Reformers stated basically, "Pagan Rome [4th Iron Kingdom] was the "let" [hindrance] to the coming of Anti-Christ, even as those before us clearly stated...":
    http://www.christianforums.com/t7766317-6/#post63955185

    You will find that the Early then diverge widely on who the Anti-Christ was to be after Pagan Rome colapsed/fragmented... but you will find absolute unanimity upon the point in the Reformers [Papal Rome is the AntiChrist, and numerous may be cited for it], having the eyes of present [then] understanding and hindsight of past events, where as the early had not yet come to the point, but yet looked for Pagan Romes demise in the future...

    ...hence Jesus words were fulfilled, "Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]." John 13:19, see also John 14:29, and you may also see OT passages Isaiah 46:9-10.

    For the Early, the "let" [Pagan Rome] was still in place. For the Reformers, the "let" [Pagan Rome] was long since removed...

    ...the study is quite accurate in detailing who the "let" was - Pagan Rome. This is historically proven. The voices of each are again in total harmony.

    Hello Brother Hentenza,

    Let us look at this word "apostasia" from the Bible itself:

    The word uses in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, "falling away" is the Greek, αποστασια [apostasia], and is also found in Acts 21:21, for "forsake" [Moses, that is the writings/teachings of Moses], "αποστασιαν" [apostasian]. To the Pharisaical Jew, they did not declare Paul to be heathen, but rather that Paul was still claiming to be a Jew, but not in harmony with what Moses wrote. In this instance it did not mean that they believed Paul to suddenly be a gentile/heathen. The word is used the same way in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, where in the "falling away" is not meaning these who were called by the name of Christ [christians] were suddenly casting away the name of Christ, but rather that while they were still claiming to be Christians, that they worshipped in a way that was not actually Christian, but a false/wrong way.

    We can find this same example in the time of Moses at the base of the mountain. Those which made the golden calf, did not do it unto a pagan God, but unto the YHVH, as it were a representation of YHVH, for notice - "And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." Exodus 32:4

    The Hebrew for "gods" is 'elohiym, and it is made lowercase, since it could not ever be a true representation of the Ever-Living God. Notice Aaron, still a follower of the true YHVH [though in apostacy, even if perhaps vacillating here], says that it was to be a "feast unto the LORD [YHVH]".

    And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow [is] a feast to the LORD. Exodus 32:5

    That is what is meant by Pauls' 'Apostacy', a rebellion wrapped in the cloak of claiming to serve God, a falling away from the Truth and accepting the lie in the place of Truth and proclaiming it as Truth. Claiming to follow the true God, but in practice denying Him. There are many such examples of Israel in their wanderings and throughout their national status that this occurred again and again. The Christians are no different, for we are the branches of the root and stock.

    We can even go to the Septuagint LXX [see confirmed in Thayer's Lexicon], and see the word used there also, for instance:

    ὁ θεὸς θεός ἐστιν κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς θεὸς κύριος αὐτὸς οἶδεν καὶ Ισραηλ αὐτὸς γνώσεται εἰ ἐν ἀποστασίᾳ ἐπλημμελήσαμεν ἔναντι τοῦ κυρίου μὴ ῥύσαιτο ἡμᾶς ἐν ταύτῃ Joshua 22:22

    Adam Clarke's translation, "“Let God the Judge cause us to perish this day, if in principle or practice we have knowingly departed from him.”". Persons such as these can be claiming to still follow the True God, yet in practice/principle have departed from the right way, ie perverting the ways of the Lord. In fact the Samaritans were the descendants of those which claimed to worship the True God [like the woman at the well, John 4:20], yet not at the Temple, but rather in the north country, and had set up alternate places of worship [supposedly to the True God YHVH] at Bethel and Dan [1 Kings 12:29; 2 Kings 10:29]. Further examples can be seen in the nations of Edom [chidlrens of Esau], Ammon and Moab [both childrens of Lot], which also claimed to worship the True God, yet had all kinds of pagan practices intermingled... and they even fought agains the Israelites, and would not let them [their distant kin] to travel through their territory into the Promised Land [we see an extension of that relaity, used in prophecy of Daniel 11, where it tells of the greater endtime events, false protestants, etc doing the same again unto God's people... all three nations sought to war against the Israelites, but they turned on one another in a miniature armageddon... Read Jeremiah, Ezekiel].

    King Solomon is yet another example of such Apostasy. Apostasy leads unto total rejection...

    Seek after Korah's [Dathan and Abiram's] rebellion in the time of Moses, claiming to be as Sanctified [set apart by God for Holy purpose] as the Levites and Aaron... and that they too were good enough to serve in the Priestly services...

    καὶ πάντα τὰ σκεύη ἃ ἐμίανεν Αχαζ ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ αὐτοῦ ἐν τῇ ἀποστασίᾳ αὐτοῦ ἡτοιμάκαμεν καὶ ἡγνίκαμεν ἰδού ἐστιν ἐναντίον τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου κυρίου 2 Chronicles 29:19

    Here is what the Baptist John Gill has to say on the 2 Chronicles 29:19 passage,

    "2 Chronicles 29:19 Moreover, all the vessels which King Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression,....
    Not that he threw them away, being valuable, as made of gold and silver; but, as Kimchi interprets it, he removed them, and converted them to idolatrous uses; or, as the Targum, he defiled or profaned them, and made them abominable by strange idols:

    have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the Lord; they had cleaned them, and fitted them for service, and had put them where they were ready for use; though the Targum is,"we have laid them aside, and hid them, and prepared others in their room,''as unfit for divine service; and which is the sense of other Jewish writers (o).

    (o) T. Bab. Avodah Zarah, fol. 54. 2."
    [John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, LXX, 2 Chronicles 29:19]

    Again we see it is through a false system of worship, called syncretism, trying to comingle truth with error and presenting it as truth.

    καὶ ἦλθον οἱ παρὰ τοῦ βασιλέως οἱ καταναγκάζοντες τὴν ἀποστασίαν εἰς Μωδεϊν τὴν πόλιν ἵνα θυσιάσωσιν [Apocrypha, 1 Maccabees 2:15]

    Means a "departure", a "leaving", in this use as of leaving/departing a city.

    παιδεύσει σε ἡ ἀποστασία σου καὶ ἡ κακία σου ἐλέγξει σε καὶ γνῶθι καὶ ἰδὲ ὅτι πικρόν σοι τὸ καταλιπεῖν σε ἐμέ λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός σου καὶ οὐκ εὐδόκησα ἐπὶ σοί λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός σου Jeremiah 2:19

    The Geneva Translation renders it thus:

    Thy own wickedness shall (e) correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that [it is] an evil [thing] and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear [is] not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts. Jeremiah 2:19

    It is generally [though not always] by slow divorces and departures from the right ways of the Lord, slowly backsliding, slowly edging away from God in Spirit and in Truth that one edges closer and closer toward the precipice, and so fall over and into the abyss...

    ...Judas, was an internal betrayer, a "son of perdition", who betrayed the Son of Man not with an open dagger, but with an "kiss" of an intimate "friend", and he said, "Hail Rabbi [Master]" [Matthew 26:49]. He still claimed to follow Christ, even though he wanted it his way...
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  12. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

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    Further upon this point of Judas, the "son of pedition" [John 17:12] in the same likeness of the "man of sin [lawlessness]" [2 Thessalonians 2:3], not only was it an internal betrayal of a sacred and intimate trust, what more shall we notice of Judas?

    Judas joined in league with the corrupt religious leaders, who in turn needed the Roman Government for execution...therefore take notice, an internal intimate betrayer, claiming to follow Christ, in league with corrupt religious leaders [church] and Roman Governmental [state] powers...

    "Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me." Matthew 26:46

    "...Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people." Matthew 26:47

    'Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast." Matthew 26:48

    "And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him." Matthew 26:49

    "And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him." Matthew 26:50

    "And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners." Mark 14:41

    "Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand." Mark 14:42

    "And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders." Mark 14:43

    "And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead [him] away safely." Mark 14:44

    "And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him." Mark 14:45

    "And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him." Luke 22:47

    "But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?" Luke 22:48

    "Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?" Luke 22:52

    "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples." John 18:2

    "Judas then, having received a band [of men] and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." John 18:3

    "They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them." John 18:5

    "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him," John 18:12

    "And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year." John 18:13

    Judas, that "son of perdition" is a "betrayer", even one which "stood" with the corrupt religious leaders, and "kiss[ed]" Jesus, even saying "Hail Master"/"Master, Master". The "son of perdition" so too shares the same qualities...

    ...a power claiming to be of God, yet betrays that sacred trust...

    "...and think to change times and laws [of the Most High]..." Daniel 7:25
     
  13. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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  14. Rev Randy

    Rev Randy Sometimes I pretend to be normal

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    Hooooo boy. That is a stretch if i've ever read one. (Speaking of the misuse of scripture to prove an eschatology)
     
  15. Stryder06

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    I showed you an example using Israel. You rejected it.

    The number of people who believe something, and how long it's been believed will never make something that is true false, or something that is false true. This goes back to that whole apostasy thing though that you're still waiting on.

    I most certainly can, and I did. The scripture does not say how far into the future. You assume it was thousands of years. I'm telling you it began before then. The current state of disarray among the churches is all the proof anyone should need to know something isn't right.
     
  16. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    It's the origami of passage folding and twisting ;)
     
  17. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    It's actually understanding scripture line upon line and precept upon precept. But that's obviously frowned upon around here.

    God warns us about the end and how to not be deceived, and what do people do? The say "you can't know that for sure". It's really sad.
     
  18. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    Sacred scripture is not a puzzle to be pieced together.
     
  19. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    You've must not study prophecy too often.

    It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
     
  20. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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    And God has already dealt with Israel. Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians in the 50's so his prophesy spans from that point not before.



    The only evidence that your camp can produce is post-reformation while no pre-reformation evidence has been presented. This not a matter of how many people believed it but when they started believing it.


    You have not. Presenting Israel as proof of apostasy after the Christian era is presenting the past not the future. You have no proof that a mass apostasy occurred after the Christian era, all of the verbs are future not present or past, and the current state of the churches do not prove a thing since the number of believers have not dropped drastically. Secondly, post-reformation churches merely represent a shift of churches not a shift to apostasy.
     
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