Dispensationalist Only Revelation letters are not for Christian churches

[HenryM]

How many of you believe that seven letters in Revelation are not directed to Christian churches?

I don't mean that there is no wisdom and meaning to be taken from those letters by Christians, but that those letters are primarily not directed to Christians.

 

[mmksparbud]

Who are they directed to? Why do you say this?

 

[dysert]

So you think they were directed to non-Christian churches? What makes you think that?

 

[HenryM]

Who are they directed to? Why do you say this?

So you think they were directed to non-Christian churches? What makes you think that?

I used to think they were directed to Christian churches. But now I strongly think they are primarily directed to end time/great tribulation assemblies, probably Jewish assemblies, who have turned to Jesus during the great tribulation.

There's a lot of reasons why. Mostly because there is basically none of the language Paul uses in his epistles to Christians, and a lot of Old Testament language and references, including ones that point to some form of work in order to be saved.

 

[EnergonWaffles]

hmmm I've never heard of that view before. Out of curiosity, I searched Google for "revelation letters not written to Christian churches" but couldn't find that view anywhere. Maybe I missed something.

The closest thing I found was 1 site that claimed the entire book of Revelation was heretical. (and thats not your view, clearly)

If there is somebody, I'd be interested in hearing why they think this.

 

[dysert]

I used to think they were directed to Christian churches. But now I strongly think they are primarily directed to end time/great tribulation assemblies, probably Jewish assemblies, who have turned to Jesus during the great tribulation.

What makes you think that?

 

[HenryM]

hmmm I've never heard of that view before. Out of curiosity, I searched Google for "revelation letters not written to Christian churches" but couldn't find that view anywhere. Maybe I missed something.

The closest thing I found was 1 site that claimed the entire book of Revelation was heretical.

If there is somebody, I'd be interested in hearing why they think this.

What makes you think that?

As I edited in my first reply:

There's a lot of reasons why. Mostly because there is basically none of the "grace" language Paul uses in his epistles to Christians, and a lot of Old Testament language and references, including ones that point to some form of work in order to be saved.

Here's an example of one of the thorough studies on this subject, an online book:
Commentary on Revelation - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[EnergonWaffles]

Thank you

Edit: Ah I suppose it will depend on how you define "church." 4 pages in...maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the author seems to define "church" as bodies of Gentile Christians? Am I understanding correctly?

The author says the Church of God isn't the subject of the Old Testament for this reason : Because, of the "Mystery" or the secret concerning the Church of God, we are told that it "was kept secret since the world began" (Rom. xvi. 25). That "in other ages it was not made known unto the sons of men" (Eph. iii. 5). That is, "from the beginning of the world, hath been hid in God" (Eph. iii. 9). That it "hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to the saints" (Col. i. 26).

Since the mystery was that Gentiles would be included in Israel's inheritance: Romans 16:25- Now all glory to God, who is able to make you strong, just as my Good News says. This message about Jesus Christ has revealed his plan for you Gentiles, a plan kept secret from the beginning of time." I assume this is his definition of church.

When others speak of "the church" they are including anybody and everybody, Gentile and Jew, Old and New Testament, who have submitted to God's plan of salvation.

This is a confusing read for me because I myself would see any Jew who accepted Jesus as the Messiah to be a church member.

If somebody else reads it and comes to a different conclusion, please let me know.

 

[mmksparbud]

Are you saying that the apostle wrote to non Christian churches to whom could be said
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Non Christians would have labored for His names sake?

 

[HenryM]

Are you saying that the apostle wrote to non Christian churches to whom could be said Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Non Christians would have labored for His names sake?

Yes, I think those are Jewish believers in Jesus Christ during great tribulation. It's new dispensation.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes, I think those are Jewish believers in Jesus Christ during great tribulation. It's new dispensation.

Well, of course they were!! All the very first Christians were Jews!!--All the apostles were, there were very few non Jewish believers at first!

 

[dysert]

I disagree with you, Henry. Not only because of what's written to the churches, but also because putting the letters in the Tribulation doesn't fit the Revelation timeline.

 

[HenryM]

Well, of course they were!! All the very first Christians were Jews!!--All the apostles were, there were very few non Jewish believers at first!

Yes, but I'm talking about Jews in the future, in end times great tribulation.

 

[HenryM]

I disagree with you, Henry. Not only because of what's written to the churches, but also because putting the letters in the Tribulation doesn't fit the Revelation timeline.

There are some reasons that can point that those are Christian churches, I agree.

But reasons that point that those are not Christian churches, in my opinion, far far outweigh former.

Timeline issue can be interpreted to fit understanding that those are end times assemblies.

 

[EnergonWaffles]

A Jew who believes in Jesus Christ would be a Christian and part of the church, though, yes?

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes, but I'm talking about Jews in the future, in end times great tribulation.

Then they still would not be technically Jews if they had been laboring in the name of Jesus.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes, I think those are Jewish believers in Jesus Christ during great tribulation. It's new dispensation.

They still would be considered Christians if they believed in Jesus.

 

[dysert]

There are some reasons that can point that those are Christian churches, I agree.

But reasons that point that those are not Christian churches, in my opinion, far far outweigh former.

Timeline issue can be interpreted to fit understanding that those are end times assemblies.

Not to be argumentative, but *John* was told to write to these 7 churches. He died shortly thereafter; he's not in the Tribulation writing to the churches.

 

[HenryM]

A Jew who believes in Jesus Christ would be a Christian and part of the church, though, yes?

If we are talking about Jewish person in great tribulation, I don't think he or she is a Christian. It's new dispensation.

 

[EnergonWaffles]

Would you mind if I ask what your definition of a Christian is, Henry?

My definition is anybody who accepts Jesus as their savior.

 

[HenryM]

Not to be argumentative, but *John* was told to write to these 7 churches. He died shortly thereafter; he's not in the Tribulation writing to the churches.

Yes, he wrote to seven specific churches. That's part of complexity of God's way of providing message to us. Just as the general message of the Revelation is about end times, including many events which obviously haven't happend yet, I think it's letters are primarily directed to those end times days too.

Although, it's obvious some churches, maybe scattered Jewish assemblies, got those letters in first century. And somehow those letters was also directed at them too. But I think that's secondary purpose for those letters.