Revelation ch 9 and ch 12 proves satan is not bound in this age.

Douggg

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I still don't get your logic though. No matter how you look at it, the events recorded in the 5th trumpet have to precede the events recorded in the 7th trumpet
David, I don't get why you think that. The 7th trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth - which is Satan cast down to earth having only a time, times, half time left.

David, try this. Draw a straight line with Day 1 at the start and Day 2520 at the end. To look like this.

Day 1____________________________*_________________**__________Day 2520

Where on that timeline, would you put Satan being cast down to have a time, times, half time left? I say somewhere in the middle (I show it with one asterisks *).

Do the events of the 5th trumpet, the opening of the bottomless pit, come after the middle?

In my view, I show when Satan opens the bottomless pit with two asterisks ** and the event of the flesh tormenting locust taking place somewhere around then.

Let's say, for example, the events recorded during the 5th trumpet occur during 2000 AD. And let's also say the events recorded in the 7th trumpet occur during 2010 AD. If, when satan actually falls to the earth is during the 7th trumpet, during 2010 AD in this case, and that he only falls to the earth like this just one time, how then could he have already fallen to the earth 10 years earlier?
David, I don't see that much interval (ten years in your example) between when Satan is cast down and him opening the bottomless pit to release the flesh tormenting locust.

Satan will only have a time, times, half times left to operate, approximately 3 1/2 years, once he is cast down to earth.
 
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DavidPT

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David, I don't get why you think that. The 7th trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth - which is Satan cast down to earth having only a time, times, half time left.

David, try this. Draw a straight line with Day 1 at the start and Day 2520 at the end. To look like this.

Day 1____________________________*_________________**__________Day 2520

Where on that timeline, would you put Satan being cast down to have a time, times, half time left? I say somewhere in the middle (I show it with one asterisks *).

Do the events of the 5th trumpet, the opening of the bottomless pit, come after the middle?

In my view, I show when Satan opens the bottomless pit with two asterisks ** and the event of the flesh tormenting locust taking place somewhere around then.

Douggg, I'm assuming the first asterisk is meaning the middle of the 7 years. I have no clue though as to what the last 2 asterisks are supposed to be meaning, even though you said it is meaning this---"In my view, I show when Satan opens the bottomless pit with two asterisks ** and the event of the flesh tormenting locust taking place somewhere around then".---I don't know what you are meaning by that since this would seem to mean Rev 9 takes place before the first asterisk, where I assume the first asterisk is meaning the 7th trumpet in your case.

What's in question, where on that timeline does the 7th trumpet fit? It fits at the very end of it, therefore the 7th trumpet has zero to do with satan getting cast out of heaven during it. So that matters, because even though I might agree the single asterisk is when satan is cast down to the earth having only a time, times, half time left, that is not the same as me agreeing it happens at the 7th trumpet then.

If the 7th trumpet happens in the middle of the 7 years, this indicates that the 42 month reign of the beast follows the 7th trumpet, rather that the 7th trumpet follows the 42 month reign of the beast.
 
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Douggg

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What's in question, where on that timeline does the 7th trumpet fit?
No, the question is where on the timeline does Satan being cast down having a time, times, half times go? I made a another related thread, that you might want to participate in.

So that matters, because even though I might agree the single asterisk is when satan is cast down to the earth having only a time, times, half time left, that is not the same as me agreeing it happens at the 7th trumpet then
The sounding of the 7th trumpet begins what is essentially the second half of the seven years. The first action to begin that time, times, half times is Satan cast down to earth. But the 7th trumpet is not limited to that action. The 7th trumpet activity is spread across the time, times, half time.

It is in the "days" of the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Well, in the voice of the seventh angel to be more precise.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
 
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DavidPT

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I made a another related thread, that you might want to participate in.

I have checked that thread out but don't know how to participate in it on your terms in that thread. I fail to understand what your timeline is trying to accomplish to begin with?
 
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DavidPT

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The sounding of the 7th trumpet begins what is essentially the second half of the seven years.



You are incorrect though. The 7th trump is what ends these 7 years. You have the nations already being angry before the 42 month reign of the beast even occurs. The nations are angry after the reign of the beast because the events of the 7th trumpet throws a monkey wrench into their worshipping of him for the past 42 months.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.




Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

I don't see any angry nations here, nor do I see here that wrath has come.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

I don't see any angry nations here, nor do I see here that wrath has come.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This is when wrath initially comes. Verse 2 can't even be fulfilled until Revelation 13:14-15 is fulfilled first. Until those 2 verses are fulfilled, there can not yet be an image to worship or not worship. Revelation 16:2 clearly indicates the first vial is being poured out on those which worshipped his image. Therefore Revelation 16:2 is meaning chronologically after Revelation 13:14-15.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


This is also something that happens once the 7th trumpet has sounded. There is no earthquake and great hail going on during the time of Revelation 13:3-4 and Revelation 13:13-15.
 
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Douggg

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You are incorrect though. The 7th trump is what ends these 7 years. You have the nations already being angry before the 42 month reign of the beast even occurs.
David, the 42 months reign of the beast in Revelation 13 - actually implies 42 months reign of the beast without being impeded by the two witnesses that the beast will have killed in Revelation 11:7.

The nations in Revelation 11 were angry with the two witnesses of God, so essentially they were angry with God, because of the plagues the two witnesses of God smite the earth with.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The fact that the nations rejoice that the beast had killed the two witnesses of God, making war on the two witnesses, and say in Revelation 13:4 who is able to make war with the beast, will be like pouring gasoling on the fire of God's anger.

The nations will be worshiping the beast before the 7th trumpet sounds.

The nations in Revelation 11 near the end of the 1260 days testimony, will be worshiping the person because he had become the beast. Who blashphemes God. So the nations are angry with God because of the two witnesses smiting the earth will all plagues, and then celebrating their deaths.

Behind all the rebellion is Satan and his angels, making up the mystical kingdom called Mystery Babylon the Great. Which beginning with the sounding of the seventh trumpet, God begins dismantling Satan's kingdom.
 
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DavidPT

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David, the 42 months reign of the beast in Revelation 13 - actually implies 42 months reign of the beast without being impeded by the two witnesses that the beast will have killed in Revelation 11:7.

The nations in Revelation 11 were angry with the two witnesses of God, so essentially they were angry with God, because of the plagues the two witnesses of God smite the earth with.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The fact that the nations rejoice that the beast had killed the two witnesses of God, making war on the two witnesses, and say in Revelation 13:4 who is able to make war with the beast, will be like pouring gasoling on the fire of God's anger.

I can't say that I have ever thought of it that way before. I can for sure see the logic in what you are proposing, but I'm not yet convinced you are correct though. You do give me something to consider here though, I'll give you that.
 
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DavidPT

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Do you believe heaven is a real place ?

Yahuweh Sovereign Creator tells of the bottomless pit and heaven, each one.


I believe heaven to be a real place. I tend to think the BP is also a real place. I'm not certain if Amils might agree with the latter though, thus why I was curious as to their thoughts on this.
 
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ewq1938

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I can't say that I have ever thought of it that way before. I can for sure see the logic in what you are proposing, but I'm not yet convinced you are correct though. You do give me something to consider here though, I'll give you that.


How long is there between the 7th trump sounding in Rev 11 and The two beasts being cast into the LOF in Rev 19?
 
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DavidPT

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How long is there between the 7th trump sounding in Rev 11 and The two beasts being cast into the LOF in Rev 19?

Haven't really thought about it. It shouldn't be too long, for sure not 42 months. How long are you thinking?
 
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Haven't really thought about it. It shouldn't be too long, for sure not 42 months. How long are you thinking?

A day...that would mean the ministry of the 2W occurs at the same time that the beasts rule, not separate time periods. No one can overcome the 2W until their testimony is finished. They don't impede the rule of the beast, but they are an annoyance to a degree but doesn't stop the beast from ruling or being worshiped etc.
 
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Douggg

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They don't impede the rule of the beast, but they are an annoyance to a degree but doesn't stop the beast from ruling or being worshiped etc.
You are calling the two witnesses of God - the plagues that they will smite the earth with, an annoyance?

God rules over the beast and not the other way around. The plagues that the two witnesses smite the earth with - come from God.
 
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Douggg

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How long is there between the 7th trump sounding in Rev 11 and The two beasts being cast into the LOF in Rev 19?
It is impossible to determine exactly because the earth time that passes at the war in the second heaven takes place is not stated. But Satan will have a time, times, half time left once he is cast down to earth.

7th angel sounds + the earth time that passes as the war in the second heaven takes place + the remainder of the 7 years called a time, times, half time = the answer to your question. It is essentially the second half of the seven years, but not exactly.
 
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iamlamad

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Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

This is clearly speaking of the bottomless pit, the same pit satan gets cast into in Revelation 20. As can be seen in this passage, once the pit has been closed and locked, until someone unlocks it, the prisoners inside of it are not both in the pit and at the same time, roaming around the earth. It can't be both since none of these locusts, regardless what they actually might be, are roaming around the earth while locked up in the pit.

Yet this is exactly what many claim satan does. They claim he is in the pit, and roaming the earth at the same time. If he can do that while locked up in the pit, why can't these locusts do that?


And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth---this is meaning after the pit has been unlocked. And where does the text indicate they ascend to? Upon the earth, obviously meaning while they were in the pit, they were not also upon the earth at the time. The same has to apply when satan is locked in the pit. While he is in there he can't also be roaming the earth at the same time, such as the following passage indicates.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


This is obviously meaning when he is not locked up in the pit. The thing about 1 Peter 5:8 though, there has never been a single time to this day, where 1 Peter 5:8 was not true. So how can anyone claim satan is bound in the pit in this age?

And another argument of mine is the entire 12th chapter of Revelation. That chapter covers at least the past 2000 years and then some, yet nowhere in that chapter is there a time that fits satan being in the pit a thousand years. Before he is cast to the earth, he had access to heaven, thus he couldn't have been locked up in the pit during that time. Then when he is cast out of heaven, he is cast unto the earth. He is then seen not locked up in the pit like the locusts in Revelation 9 are, but is seen persecuting the woman who brought forth the manchild. And when that attempt fails, he is then not cast into the BP either, he instead is wroth with the woman, and proceeds to make war with the remnant of her seed.

Therefore there is nowhere in all of Revelation 12 where there is a time satan can be in the pit. So why do many still insist satan is bound in the pit in this age, regardless that Scripture, such as Revelation 9 and 12 prove otherwise?
As you have well proven, it is MYTH that Satan is locked up currently.
 
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iamlamad

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Agreed, the fifth trumpet is not the 7th trumpet.

Who the falling angel is in the 5th trumpet is not revealed until the 7th trumpet.

It is similar to the second beast in Revelation 13, not being revealed as the false prophet until Revelation 19:20.

Yes, I understanding what you are saying, it is not trumpet 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, numerically speaking. But trumpets 1,2,3,4,5,6 are sequential to each other because they are in one segment, Revelation 8-9. Trumpet 7 is separate from that group.
That still does not given anyone license to move the 7th trumpet where they want on some whim! It marks the midpoint of the week and will until this trumpet is sounded.
 
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iamlamad

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It is impossible to determine exactly because the earth time that passes at the war in the second heaven takes place is not stated. But Satan will have a time, times, half time left once he is cast down to earth.

7th angel sounds + the earth time that passes as the war in the second heaven takes place + the remainder of the 7 years called a time, times, half time = the answer to your question. It is essentially the second half of the seven years, but not exactly.

ewq1938 said:
How long is there between the 7th trump sounding in Rev 11 and The two beasts being cast into the LOF in Rev 19?

Since the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week, it is going to be a little over 3.5 years. We don't know exactly how long after the week ends (7th vial) to the time Jesus comes. NO ONE knows that time except our Father God.
 
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iamlamad

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David, the 42 months reign of the beast in Revelation 13 - actually implies 42 months reign of the beast without being impeded by the two witnesses that the beast will have killed in Revelation 11:7.

The nations in Revelation 11 were angry with the two witnesses of God, so essentially they were angry with God, because of the plagues the two witnesses of God smite the earth with.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The fact that the nations rejoice that the beast had killed the two witnesses of God, making war on the two witnesses, and say in Revelation 13:4 who is able to make war with the beast, will be like pouring gasoling on the fire of God's anger.

The nations will be worshiping the beast before the 7th trumpet sounds.

The nations in Revelation 11 near the end of the 1260 days testimony, will be worshiping the person because he had become the beast. Who blashphemes God. So the nations are angry with God because of the two witnesses smiting the earth will all plagues, and then celebrating their deaths.

Behind all the rebellion is Satan and his angels, making up the mystical kingdom called Mystery Babylon the Great. Which beginning with the sounding of the seventh trumpet, God begins dismantling Satan's kingdom.

Since the two witnesses SHOW UP (suddenly appear) right where John mentions them, just days before the midpoint of the week, MOST of their testimony will be in the SECOND half of the week - so they will be telling TRUTH while the Beast is spreading lies. They will be a constant THORN in the Beast's side until their 1260 days are up so they can be killed.

The truth is, they show up just 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and abominate. (new verb: it means, commit the abomination!) Most people miss the fact that 11:4 through 11:13 is written as a parenthesis, outside of John's chronology.

Rev. 1 & 2 show is that the man of sin has just entered Jerusalem. After all, if he is to enter the TEMPLE in Jerusalem, he must first ARRIVE in Jerusalem. He will come with his Gentile armies who will trample the city for 42 months. This 42 months and the 1260 days of testifying show us that John is VERY CLOSE to the midpoint of the week in his narrative.

the beast will have killed in Revelation 11:7. Since this is inside a parenthesis, it has no bearing on John's chronology. The truth is, they will be killed just 3.5 days before the END of the week, lay dead those 3.5 days, then be resurrected with all the rest of the Old Testament saints "on the last day" and at the 7th vial.

How do I know this? I heard it straight from the Master. "Every time I mentioned and event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be VERY close to the midpoint of the week." These time periods of the 3.5 years prove that chapters 11, 12, and 13 are ALL midpoint chapters, and are tied together. No one then can suggest (and be right) that the 7th trumpet marks the end of the week. It marks the MIDPOINT.

Note: one cannot hope to form true doctrine while pulling verses out of their context. Make no mistake: these three chapters, 11-13 are MIDPOINT chapters. This is proven again with 12:6 showing those fleeing; they are fleeing because they JUST saw the abomination. It will be the abomination that divides the week.

Mystery Babylon is THE CITY of JERUSALEM! Just read the last verse of chapter 17.
 
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iamlamad

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You are incorrect though. The 7th trump is what ends these 7 years. You have the nations already being angry before the 42 month reign of the beast even occurs. The nations are angry after the reign of the beast because the events of the 7th trumpet throws a monkey wrench into their worshipping of him for the past 42 months.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.




Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

I don't see any angry nations here, nor do I see here that wrath has come.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

I don't see any angry nations here, nor do I see here that wrath has come.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This is when wrath initially comes. Verse 2 can't even be fulfilled until Revelation 13:14-15 is fulfilled first. Until those 2 verses are fulfilled, there can not yet be an image to worship or not worship. Revelation 16:2 clearly indicates the first vial is being poured out on those which worshipped his image. Therefore Revelation 16:2 is meaning chronologically after Revelation 13:14-15.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is also something that happens once the 7th trumpet has sounded. There is no earthquake and great hail going on during the time of Revelation 13:3-4 and Revelation 13:13-15.

Dougg said:
The sounding of the 7th trumpet begins what is essentially the second half of the seven years.

You answered: You are incorrect though. The 7th trump is what ends these 7 years.

The correct answer is, DOUGGG IS RIGHT! Did you just overlook that the 7th trumpet is in chapter 11 and chapter 11 is HALF WAY through the book? John holds to a very strict chronology so this is a GOOD sign that the midpoint is in chapter 11. Next, we have 5 mentions of the last half of the week in chapters 11 through 13, making ALL THREE of these chapters MIDPOINT chapters.

11:1&2: the man of sin enters Jerusalem bringing his Gentile armies. (Just days before the midpoint)

11:3: the two witnesses sudden appear, because the man of sin just arrived. They appear just 3.5 days before the midpoint.

11:4-11:13 written as a parenthesis
11:14 warning: the 7th trumpet is NOW.
11:15 the 7th trumpet sounds at the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and commits the abomination.11:15 the 6000 years of mans rule is finished: Adam's lease ends. Satan suddenly as NO LEGAL HOLD to earth. The kingdoms of earth are transferred to Jesus. The week is divided into two equal halves

12:6 those in judea who SEE this abomination will begin to flee.
12:7 the 7th trumpet is the alarm for Michael to go to war with Satan.
13:1 the man of sin is possessed by Satan and becomes the BEAST.

You have the nations already being angry before the 42 month reign of the beast even occurs. The nations are angry because it is the DAY OF THE LORD and God is judging earth. The sinners HATE judgment.

I don't see any angry nations here, nor do I see here that wrath has come. His wrath began at the 6th seal! Go back and read it. The DAY of His wrath started there and has continued on from there through the entire week.

This is when wrath initially comes. (the vials) WRONG WRONG WRONG! Go back and look at the 6th seal: THERE is where wrath begins. The first vial is the first judgment FILLED with His wrath. But His wrath began at the 6th seal.

Verse 2 can't even be fulfilled until Revelation 13:14-15 is fulfilled first. Finally! Something I can agree with!

Therefore Revelation 16:2 is meaning chronologically after Revelation 13:14-15. GOOD! I have always said, "the events of a given chapter will always happen AFTER the events of a previous chapter and BEFORE the events in a later chapter." Parentheses and prophecy are an exception.

there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. I don't think there was great hail inside the temple in heaven. I think this is prophetic of what WILL happen at the end of the 70th week - the 7th vial.
 
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iamlamad

Lamad
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No, the question is where on the timeline does Satan being cast down having a time, times, half times go? I made a another related thread, that you might want to participate in.

The sounding of the 7th trumpet begins what is essentially the second half of the seven years. The first action to begin that time, times, half times is Satan cast down to earth. But the 7th trumpet is not limited to that action. The 7th trumpet activity is spread across the time, times, half time.

It is in the "days" of the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Well, in the voice of the seventh angel to be more precise.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

DavidPT said:
What's in question, where on that timeline does the 7th trumpet fit?


YOu answered, No, the question is where on the timeline does Satan being cast down having a time, times, half times go?

The truth is, the 7th trumpet is Michael's SIGNAL to go to war with Satan. Perhaps there will be a few seconds for Michael to FIND Satan end start the war.

The sounding of the 7th trumpet begins what is essentially the second half of the seven years. Exactly! The 7th trumpet will mark in heaven the very moment the man of sin will abominate (new Verb to save time). Good job here, Douggg!

No, the first action will be those in Judea fleeing. THEN, seconds later, the war will start.

The 7th trumpet activity is spread across the time, times, half time. Not really: a trumpet sound can last only to the amount of air in the lungs. However, the 7th trumpet is the signal for things to happen that will continue for the 3.5 years.
 
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