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MJ Only Revelation and the Yom Kippur Temple Service

daq

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@visionary @Lulav @daq @Torah Keeper

Shalom shalom my Brothers and Sisters

I have already explained my view of 1 Cor 14:33. It MUST be read in context, as is true of all scripture. To apply this to Gen 1:1 is a leap too far in my mind. But let me try once again to put this to rest. Believe what you will. But this has little or nothing to do with what I am trying to show you here. Nonetheless, here is my view of this topic.

In context, 1 Cor 14:33 appears to be instruction on how to 1) behave in the assembly, 2) when to speak in tongues or 3) how to discern false words of prophecy. Look at verses 22-32 to establish the intent of the author.



As far as Gen 1:2 is concerned, He also is credited with saying,

Adonai has taken credit for confusing everything from languages to protect us from ourselves, to confusing the enemy to protect us from evil. So, unless HE SAID that someone else was screwing up His work in creation, then I don't get it and I don't care. I am perfectly fine with Him creating all things according to His own purposes. I don't need to read 1 Cor 14:33 into it. Besides, it has nothing to do with what I am trying to show you that I found. So can we PLEASE drop it?

I don't know why you included me in this: I haven't said anything about 1 Cor 14:33, but since you quoted from the Yeshayah passage again and expounded your view I now feel compelled to say that I agree with Lulav's understanding of Genesis 1:1. Not because of the Corinthians passage but because of my understanding of bara' which I received from Yhoshua, (Joshua 17:15-18), where bara' means to cut down in the sense of cutting down trees to make a clearing and build a house. Thus, in the Yeshayah passage that you quoted, I have justification in the Torah for reading it to say that the Almighty cuts down evil.

I form the light and cut down darkness: I make peace and cut down evil...

The first man Adam is earthy, dust-like, and became a living soul in Gen 2:7. The second man, ben Adam, is from the heavens, and is given the dominion in Gen 1:26-28, for that which is physical and natural is first: then that which is spiritual. So the creation accounts now divided into two separate chapters are not in a linear chronological order: and just as Lulav also said, the first Adam was recreated, (in the image and likeness of Elohim, Gen 1:26-28). Adam sinned, and ate from the tree which he was commanded not to eat from, and he died, and Elohim raised him up in righteousness, (Isaiah 45:13), after having cut him down, (Isaiah 45:7-12, and particularly, Isaiah 45:12). Moreover the Septuagint version of Isaiah 45:13 reads the word for a king in that passage, (by way of a different separation of the Hebrew text), and says that he was raised up with a king of righteousness, (that is, Melki-Tzedek, the King of Righteousness). Where was he raised up? Genesis 1:26-28.
 
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Phillip Hawley

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What I can find of the miracles of Exodus are

Passover - saving from death - water to blood --
Burning Bush
Pillars of Fire
Pillar of Cloud
Red Sea parting
Manna
Water turned from bitter to sweet
Water from the rock
Crossing over Jordan on dry land

I'm seeing, Water, Fire and Blood here
Hi @Lulav

When I chose to compare the Seven Days of Creation to the Seven Appointed Times, I naturally started with the Passover.
Since the Days of Creation are listed in chronological order, I naturally began with the 1st Passover and examined those scripture chronologically.
Your list contains miracles that occurred both before and after that event. My list begins with the Passover and progresses chronologically from that point.

Since the 1st Passover is also a foretelling of the attributes of the Messiah and the plan of Redemption and Salvation and these events are foretold in part, as a promise to Abraham concerning his Seed starting with the Children of Israel, I took that as my cue to focus on those events and attributes.

Ultimately, the Exodus is the first step in reuniting the Children of Promise to the Land of Promise and with the Creator that made those promises. So to me, just as Light, Water, Seed and Rest in Elohim are of primary importance to this story, so too are the Miracles of the Exodus where Moses and the Children of Israel (including the mixed multitude) responded in obedience to His Word. All of these elements are needed in order to restore; 1) the Father, 2) His Children and, 3) the Garden.

This is why I did not include the Burning Bush, The Sign of Leprosy, The Signs before Pharaoh and the Plagues upon Egypt among others. I Started with the 1st Passover because it is the 1st Appointed Time. But I found that the Seven Miracles of the Exodus included these necessary elements;
1) The Themes found in the Seven Days of Creation,
2) The 'Sent One' of Adonai Elohim,
3) The Children of Promise,
4) The Path of obedience to the Land of Promise.

I am not trying to bend this story to my will. I am trying to decipher it according to His Promises. Truly, I hope this makes sense.

Please pardon me. I have much to do today, but I will check in later as I am able.

Many Blessings

Ps. However you view the Creation story, there are only 7 days mentioned. I am taking the obvious markers and following. So your view and mine aren't necessarily in conflict. I just trying to get you guys to understand the PROCESS I employed. If everyone would focus on that and follow this through to it's natural conclusion, then we would have a great basis for a meaningful exchange.
 
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Phillip Hawley

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I don't know why you included me in this: I haven't said anything about 1 Cor 14:33, but since you quoted from the Yeshayah passage again and expounded your view I now feel compelled to say that I agree with Lulav's understanding of Genesis 1:1. Not because of the Corinthians passage but because of my understanding of bara' which I received from Yhoshua, (Joshua 17:15-18), where bara' means to cut down in the sense of cutting down trees to make a clearing and build a house. Thus, in the Yeshayah passage that you quoted, I have justification in the Torah for reading it to say that the Almighty cuts down evil.

I form the light and cut down darkness: I make peace and cut down evil...

The first man Adam is earthy, dust-like, and became a living soul in Gen 2:7. The second man, ben Adam, is from the heavens, and is given the dominion in Gen 1:26-28, for that which is physical and natural is first: then that which is spiritual. So the creation accounts now divided into two separate chapters are not in a linear chronological order: and just as Lulav also said, the first Adam was recreated, (in the image and likeness of Elohim, Gen 1:26-28). Adam sinned, and ate from the tree which he was commanded not to eat from, and he died, and Elohim raised him up in righteousness, (Isaiah 45:13), after having cut him down, (Isaiah 45:7-12, and particularly, Isaiah 45:12). Moreover the Septuagint version of Isaiah 45:13 reads the word for a king in that passage, (by way of a different separation of the Hebrew text), and says that he was raised up with a king of righteousness, (that is, Melki-Tzedek, the King of Righteousness). Where was he raised up? Genesis 1:26-28.
I included you because, just like everyone else I named, I respect your abilities and opinion and you participated. No judgement on my part. Only a desire to hear your input.

Your Servant in Him,
Phillip
 
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Phillip Hawley

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I'm a P s h a t kind of guy. So I generally go with the plain meaning of the text. That doesn't mean that I discount anyone else's interpretation. I don't. I was simply trying to get my brothers and sisters in Messiah to understand my process and my conclusions. Hopefully before it gets picked apart.

This alternate view of the creation story is a first for me. It isn't one that I have run into before. But I have examined it and I don't see the relevance to what I am trying to show you. From what I can tell your alternate interpretation of the Genesis account has no bearing on what I wrote. Surely Messianism still makes room for the most basic rule of PRDS.

If your interpretation affects the P S H A T of my interpretation, I'm all ears. Perhaps there is a thread where this has been hashed out before? If not, who want to start one? Please send me an invitation! I'll join!
 
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visionary

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I don't know why you included me in this: I haven't said anything about 1 Cor 14:33, but since you quoted from the Yeshayah passage again and expounded your view I now feel compelled to say that I agree with Lulav's understanding of Genesis 1:1. Not because of the Corinthians passage but because of my understanding of bara' which I received from Yhoshua, (Joshua 17:15-18), where bara' means to cut down in the sense of cutting down trees to make a clearing and build a house. Thus, in the Yeshayah passage that you quoted, I have justification in the Torah for reading it to say that the Almighty cuts down evil.

I form the light and cut down darkness: I make peace and cut down evil...

The first man Adam is earthy, dust-like, and became a living soul in Gen 2:7. The second man, ben Adam, is from the heavens, and is given the dominion in Gen 1:26-28, for that which is physical and natural is first: then that which is spiritual. So the creation accounts now divided into two separate chapters are not in a linear chronological order: and just as Lulav also said, the first Adam was recreated, (in the image and likeness of Elohim, Gen 1:26-28). Adam sinned, and ate from the tree which he was commanded not to eat from, and he died, and Elohim raised him up in righteousness, (Isaiah 45:13), after having cut him down, (Isaiah 45:7-12, and particularly, Isaiah 45:12). Moreover the Septuagint version of Isaiah 45:13 reads the word for a king in that passage, (by way of a different separation of the Hebrew text), and says that he was raised up with a king of righteousness, (that is, Melki-Tzedek, the King of Righteousness). Where was he raised up? Genesis 1:26-28.
Since there was no sin or evil in the beginning with creation, how do you, or what do you see him "cutting down"?
 
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daq

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I'm a P s h a t kind of guy. So I generally go with the plain meaning of the text. That doesn't mean that I discount anyone else's interpretation. I don't. I was simply trying to get my brothers and sisters in Messiah to understand my process and my conclusions. Hopefully before it gets picked apart.

This alternate view of the creation story is a first for me. It isn't one that I have run into before. But I have examined it and I don't see the relevance to what I am trying to show you. From what I can tell your alternate interpretation of the Genesis account has no bearing on what I wrote. Surely Messianism still makes room for the most basic rule of PRDS.

If your interpretation affects the P S H A T of my interpretation, I'm all ears. Perhaps there is a thread where this has been hashed out before? If not, who want to start one? Please send me an invitation! I'll join!

A man walked into a cage with a hungry lion: he immediately found out that his plain reading of the text in the first chapter of Genesis was the wrong reading. He did not have physical dominion over the lion. After the lion was put down, the cleaner came in to clean out the cage: and as he was mopping up the blood of the dead man, he said, You fool, the Satan goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, and the unclean birds of the heavens are the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan: over these things we are given dominion in the new Adam from the heavens.
 
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daq

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Since there was no sin or evil in the beginning with creation, how do you, or what do you see him "cutting down"?

That's not a problem in my understanding because, as I said, (and as the scripture teaches), the two creation accounts now separated into the first two chapters of Genesis are not in a linear chronological order. That which is natural comes first, (Gen 2:7), then that which is spiritual, (Gen 1:26-28). Moreover the reason I said there is justification from the Torah concerning the understanding of bara' is because Mosheh was commanded to put Yhoshua before Eleazar and the people, and put his hands on him, and give him the charge: and of course he did so, and then we are told that Yhoshua was full of the Spirit of wisdom, (Deuteronomy 34:9).

What therefore happens if we use the meaning of bara', as it is used by Yhoshua, (Joshua 17:15-18), in the opening creation account? (just as already done previously with the Isaiah 45 passage where it makes perfect sense).

Bereshiyth Elohim cut down hashamayim and haaretz: and haaretz became tohu and bohu...

Why did the eretz become tohu and bohu? Because Elohim cut it down, (and emptied it of the man), and thus it makes perfect sense. However, in my many arguments concerning this topic, the one reason most people reject this view is because, if it be true, then it is obvious that the passage can no longer be used to fabricate a young-earth physical creation account.
 
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Phillip Hawley

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I am not aware of a single Hebrew=>English translation from the ancient Jewish manuscripts that supports this alternative theory or interpretation of the Genesis account. As far as I know, the Creation account is universally accepted as an accurate translation and this is consistently supported from the vast majority of linguists, textualists and Hebrew scholars both Jewish and Goyim over the course of 2000+ years.

NOTE: I you feel that the above is an invitation to further derail this thread with more alternative translations, let me disabuse you of that notion. It is not.

I have politely tolerated these arguments while inviting the members that support this alternative theory to open their own thread. I said, "If your interpretation affects the P S H A T of my interpretation, I'm all ears. Perhaps there is a thread where this has been hashed out before? If not, who want to start one? Please send me an invitation! I'll join!" Sadly, my less than subtle hint fell on deaf ears.

This OP is about the relationship between the symbolism, allusions, form and structure of the Revelation and it's relationship to the Yom Kippur Temple Service. In the course of my studies, I found something that I believe to be unique and relevant to this study. I sought contributions and critique within the logical bounds of topical and thematic analysis of existing translations, not an insistence to rewrite scripture. Should you wish to discuss a rewrite of the Creation account, again; please open your own thread and please send me an invitation.

I want your participation. I value your insights. But can we please try to color inside the lines? Thank you!

Shabbat Shalom
 
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Phillip Hawley

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A man walked into a cage with a hungry lion: he immediately found out that his plain reading of the text in the first chapter of Genesis was the wrong reading. He did not have physical dominion over the lion. After the lion was put down, the cleaner came in to clean out the cage: and as he was mopping up the blood of the dead man, he said, You fool, the Satan goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, and the unclean birds of the heavens are the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan: over these things we are given dominion in the new Adam from the heavens.
Perhaps the THAT man didn't understand the difference between 1) being in the Garden and in the presence of the Creator versus 2) sinning by eating of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge or Good and Evil and being driven out from the perfection of the Garden and into the world outside - after it was cursed for man's sake. So I would say that, 'a man' that 'walked into a cage with a hungry lion', didn't understand the plain meaning of the text, and died as a result; which seems to be the message of Messiah in a nutshell. Y'know, the whole cleanse yourself of all unrighteousness, believe in Me and obey the Father's Torot?
 
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daq

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Perhaps the THAT man didn't understand the difference between 1) being in the Garden and in the presence of the Creator versus 2) sinning by eating of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge or Good and Evil and being driven out from the perfection of the Garden and into the world outside - after it was cursed for man's sake. So I would say that, 'a man' that 'walked into a cage with a hungry lion', didn't understand the plain meaning of the text, and died as a result; which seems to be the message of Messiah in a nutshell. Y'know, the whole cleanse yourself of all unrighteousness, believe in Me and obey the Father's Torot?

Hmmm, what are the plain meanings of these texts?

Matthew 13:3-4 KJV
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Matthew 13:18-19 KJV
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:3-4 KJV
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Mark 4:13-15 KJV
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 8:5 KJV
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

Luke 8:11-12 KJV
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Surely therefore the unclean fowls of the air are the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan, just as I said from the Testimony of the Master. The other passages I referenced would of course be 1 Peter 5:8 and Romans 16:20.

Moreover Genesis 1 speaks of Ben Adam, the Son of Man, according to the scripture.

Psalm 8:4-8 KJV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Heb 2:6]
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. [Heb 2:7]
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; [Heb 2:7] thou hast put all things under his feet: [1 Cor 15:25-27, Eph 1:22, Heb 2:8]
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; [Gen 1:26-28]
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. [Gen 1:26-28]
 
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daq

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I am not aware of a single Hebrew=>English translation from the ancient Jewish manuscripts that supports this alternative theory or interpretation of the Genesis account. As far as I know, the Creation account is universally accepted as an accurate translation and this is consistently supported from the vast majority of linguists, textualists and Hebrew scholars both Jewish and Goyim over the course of 2000+ years.

NOTE: I you feel that the above is an invitation to further derail this thread with more alternative translations, let me disabuse you of that notion. It is not.

I have politely tolerated these arguments while inviting the members that support this alternative theory to open their own thread. I said, "If your interpretation affects the P S H A T of my interpretation, I'm all ears. Perhaps there is a thread where this has been hashed out before? If not, who want to start one? Please send me an invitation! I'll join!" Sadly, my less than subtle hint fell on deaf ears.

This OP is about the relationship between the symbolism, allusions, form and structure of the Revelation and it's relationship to the Yom Kippur Temple Service. In the course of my studies, I found something that I believe to be unique and relevant to this study. I sought contributions and critique within the logical bounds of topical and thematic analysis of existing translations, not an insistence to rewrite scripture. Should you wish to discuss a rewrite of the Creation account, again; please open your own thread and please send me an invitation.

I want your participation. I value your insights. But can we please try to color inside the lines? Thank you!

Shabbat Shalom

This is the post where you should have mentioned me if you didn't want any more responses. I responded in the previous post before I saw and read this one. Moreover the previous posts you asked for when I asked why you even included my name in the names you mentioned in that previous post. Perhaps you should not have told me to stop doing something I wasn't doing to begin with: it's very confusing. I'll leave you to your thread now.

I included you because, just like everyone else I named, I respect your abilities and opinion and you participated. No judgement on my part. Only a desire to hear your input.

Your Servant in Him,
Phillip
 
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Phillip Hawley

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This is the post where you should have mentioned me if you didn't want any more responses. I responded in the previous post before I saw and read this one. Moreover the previous posts you asked for when I asked why you even included my name in the names you mentioned in that previous post. Perhaps you should not have told me to stop doing something I wasn't doing to begin with: it's very confusing. I'll leave you to your thread now.
How many times do I have to say it? Yes daq, I want your input. I just don't wish to entertain the arguments that the entire Creation story is faulty and that 2000+ years of translations and scholarship consensus is erroneous - in a OP based on the standard translation of the Creation account. Why is that so hard to understand?
 
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Phillip Hawley

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Hmmm, what are the plain meanings of these texts?

Matthew 13:3-4 KJV
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Matthew 13:18-19 KJV
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:3-4 KJV
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Mark 4:13-15 KJV
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 8:5 KJV
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

Luke 8:11-12 KJV
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Surely therefore the unclean fowls of the air are the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan, just as I said from the Testimony of the Master. The other passages I referenced would of course be 1 Peter 5:8 and Romans 16:20.

Moreover Genesis 1 speaks of Ben Adam, the Son of Man, according to the scripture.

Psalm 8:4-8 KJV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Heb 2:6]
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. [Heb 2:7]
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; [Heb 2:7] thou hast put all things under his feet: [1 Cor 15:25-27, Eph 1:22, Heb 2:8]
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; [Gen 1:26-28]
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. [Gen 1:26-28]
Sure thing @daq. Some of this is explained in the parables of Messiah. Some is explained in Daniel. Short version is found in a full study of Ecclesiastes and Proverbs. Any chance we could get back to the OP?
 
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daq

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Sure thing @daq. Some of this is explained in the parables of Messiah. Some is explained in Daniel. Short version is found in a full study of Ecclesiastes and Proverbs. Any chance we could get back to the OP?

Please review replies 188 and 192, continue with your thread, and stop badgering and harassing me.
 
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Phillip Hawley

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Please review replies 188 and 192, continue with your thread, and stop harassing me.
daq, I did. But asking that posts remain related to the OP hardly rises to the level of badgering and harassment. It seems that there is little that I can do that does not offend you. For that, I am truly sorry. Be well and be blessed.
 
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Phillip Hawley

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Btw, @daq

I think that your assertions concerning the definition of 'bara' and how you believe it affects the Creation account would make an excellent OP. In that I don't completely understand your perspective, I would love to explore it further. I hope you will consider it.

Your brother in Messiah,
Phillip
 
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visionary

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Back to Revelation and Yom Kippur connections... It takes two witnesses, and both Revelation and Yom Kippur have that. Before Yom Kippur, it takes two witnesses to announce the time has come, and get ready, prepare yourselves. The Two Witnesses of Revelation come with a message, urgency, and power from on High. I also see them standing up to the great impersonator like the two identical goats before the congregation on Yom Kippur. The congregation, in this case, the whole world, must make up their mind once and for all who they will follow. It is the last call. Like the magicians before the Pharoah, whatever Moses did, the magicians imitated. It will be the time of the separating of the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the chaff, and when the dust is settled, judgment will be declared from on High.

When the Yom Kippur services have been concluded, Yeshua will leave the temple, take off the robes of the High Priest and don His Royal King robes to head out and come collect His people.
Revelation 15:8
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
 
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visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
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When the high priest walked into the Holy of Holies to burn incense in the very presence of God. It was laid down that he must not stay too long ‘lest he put Israel in terror.’ The people literally watched with bated breath, and when he came out from the presence of God, still alive, what a sigh of relief.

Revelation 8:1
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
 
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visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
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Not everyone is happy. Some wrongs have strong emotional realizations because when the theology is so far off, when reality hits, all we can do is weep and sigh for the consequences of being wrong. True repentance can have long-lasting effects when the full impact of what it all means hits the heart and mind.

Zechariah 12:10:

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Repent prayerfully that all you know and understand has been laid on the altar to either rise up and be placed deep into your heart or burnt up like the ashes of sin.

Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
 
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