Revelation - Adventists and Former Adventists

[Eila]

The 3 angel's messages are very much part of the SDA church. Why is that? Why is the mission of the SDA church to preach the gospel in the context of the 3 angel's messages? Here is the mission statement from the official SDA website:

"The mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is to communicate to all peoples the everlasting gospel of God’s love in the context of the three angels' messages of Revelation 14:6-12, and as revealed in the life, death, resurrection, and high priestly ministry of Jesus Christ, leading them to accept Jesus as personal Saviour and Lord and to unite with His remnant church; and to nurture believers as disciples in preparation for His soon return."

Here we find the mission statement to state that the focus is not on the Gospel, but on the Gospel through the 3 angel's messages. Again we see "remnant church". Where do you find in the Bible that there is a "remnant church". What are all the other churches out there?

The first angel's message in Revelation 14
"6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, with an eternal Gospel (good news) to tell to the inhabitants of the earth, to every race and tribe and language and people.
7And he cried with a mighty voice, Revere God and give Him glory (honor and praise in worship), for the hour of His judgment has arrived. Fall down before Him; pay Him homage and adoration and worship Him Who created heaven and earth, the sea and the springs (fountains) of water."

Here we see an angel proclaiming this message. Why does the SDA church assume that they are the ones who should do what the angel is doing? There are many angels mentioned throughout Revelation. Why are these angels targeted?

" 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those[g] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

Where do we find evidence from the Bible that the SDA church is called to preach these messages? Where do we find in the Bible the necessity to downplay the Great Commission and focus on calling people out of Babylon?

 

[Sophia7]

I'm probably not the person you want to discuss this with because I don't have a traditional Adventist view on this, but I'll share my thoughts. I don't think you'll find any evidence in the Bible that the SDA Church is the remnant of Bible prophecy. I don't think the remnant is any particular church but rather all true Christians. I also think that the Adventist Church has traditionally focused too much on calling Christians out of other churches and not enough on preaching the gospel to the unchurched. You're right; we need to focus more on the Great Commission. We're doing that now in places like India, and the Holy Spirit is being poured out there.

 

[freeindeed2]

I'm probably not the person you want to discuss this with because I don't have a traditional Adventist view on this, but I'll share my thoughts. I don't think you'll find any evidence in the Bible that the SDA Church is the remnant of Bible prophecy. I don't think the remnant is any particular church but rather all true Christians. I also think that the Adventist Church has traditionally focused too much on calling Christians out of other churches and not enough on preaching the gospel to the unchurched. You're right; we need to focus more on the Great Commission. We're doing that now in places like India, and the Holy Spirit is being poured out there.

You know, I've been to India doing SDA evangelism (ASI, New Beginnings), and it's pretty much the same as what we do in our Revelation Seminars to 'steal sheep' from other Christian congregations here in the states. I was even amazed at how many other Christian churches were already in the villages we were preaching the SDA message in. Many who turned out for the campaigns were already Christians, and many who got baptized had been baptized by other Christian groups who had come already.

Don't get me wrong, it was an amazing experience (and I LOVE Indian food!). But, we were kind of like the circus coming to town. Everybody showed up to see what all the 'lights' and 'sound' were from.

 

[Sophia7]

You know, I've been to India doing SDA evangelism (ASI, New Beginnings), and it's pretty much the same as what we do in our Revelation Seminars to 'steal sheep' from other Christian congregations here in the states. I was even amazed at how many other Christian churches were already in the villages we were preaching the SDA message in. Many who turned out for the campaigns were already Christians, and many who got baptized had been baptized by other Christian groups who had come already.

Don't get me wrong, it was an amazing experience (and I LOVE Indian food!). But, we were kind of like the circus coming to town. Everybody showed up to see what all the 'lights' and 'sound' were from.

Maybe it was different where you went. We had a church member who went last year, and she said that they were reaching mostly people who were not even Christians. They were preaching the gospel and not all of the Adventist specifics. (They do that later with Bible workers.) She even saw a demon cast out and heard a rushing wind like in the book of Acts. She also said that where she went they didn't have the sheep-stealing concerns. Catholics and Adventists even work together to reach people for Christ. Imagine that!

 

[Adventtruth]

You know, I've been to India doing SDA evangelism (ASI, New Beginnings), and it's pretty much the same as what we do in our Revelation Seminars to 'steal sheep' from other Christian congregations here in the states. I was even amazed at how many other Christian churches were already in the villages we were preaching the SDA message in. Many who turned out for the campaigns were already Christians, and many who got baptized had been baptized by other Christian groups who had come already.

Don't get me wrong, it was an amazing experience (and I LOVE Indian food!). But, we were kind of like the circus coming to town. Everybody showed up to see what all the 'lights' and 'sound' were from.

I got an Adventist friend over in Botswona Africa. He talks about how the Spirit is moving over there. I suspected it was sheep stealing aswell.

AT

 

[freeindeed2]

Maybe it was different where you went. We had a church member who went last year, and she said that they were reaching mostly people who were not even Christians. They were preaching the gospel and not all of the Adventist specifics. (They do that later with Bible workers.) She even saw a demon cast out and heard a rushing wind like in the book of Acts. She also said that where she went they didn't have the sheep-stealing concerns. Catholics and Adventists even work together to reach people for Christ. Imagine that!

We worked through Maranatha and conducted 7 separate meetings in 7 different small remote villages using the ASI New Beginnings. Basically its a 3 week presentation of SDA beliefs(one night or so presents Jesus and the cross, the rest of the nights present SDA distinctives). All of the villages were also receiving SDA churches, which we helped build and fund also.

While there I flew down to a 50-village campaign with a big tent and lights and people were trucked in from all over. I was only there for one night, but the night I was there the topic being covered was 'State of the Dead'.

You know, I would have thought that most of the people we were reaching had no exposure to Christianity and didn't discover otherwise until I asked MANY questions of the Maranatha pastors/guides who we had (both of which were EXCELLENT!). They didn't volunteer the information, but when I asked the right questions they answered them. The Indian people tend to be very superstitious. Some get baptized every time a group comes through. They want all of the God's to be appeased, so they 'do' what they're told the 'Christian God' wants too. The big campaigns are really like the circus rolling into town. Most everyone shows up because it's the only 'show' in town. It's not a bad thing, but if you understand that other 'shows' come through too from other denominations and that there is definitely overlap you have a more balanced view of what is actually happening. Two of the small villages already had Baptist churches in them, but we were building an SDA church there too (and I mean small villages).

I'm glad to hear that there are SDA's over there preaching Jesus' pure Gospel and not just focussing on the 'unique' SDA 'pillars'. Jesus must be preached, for he is the One who takes away the sins of the world!

 

[Eila]

I'm probably not the person you want to discuss this with because I don't have a traditional Adventist view on this, but I'll share my thoughts. I don't think you'll find any evidence in the Bible that the SDA Church is the remnant of Bible prophecy.

Where did this "remnant" status come from? What is it based on? Why is it difficult for a person to leave the SDA church? A person can go from a Baptist church to a Methodist church without problems. Why is it such a big deal for someone to leave the SDA chuch?

 

[Sophia7]

Where did this "remnant" status come from? What is it based on? Why is it difficult for a person to leave the SDA church? A person can go from a Baptist church to a Methodist church without problems. Why is it such a big deal for someone to leave the SDA chuch?

This is where it comes from:

REV 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
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REV 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
​

The Adventist Church teaches that Adventists are the only Christians who keep all of the Ten Commandments (especially the Sabbath, of course) and have the testimony of Jesus, which they believe is the "Spirit of Prophecy" (i.e. EGW) because they relate these texts to Rev. 19:10. From that perspective, it's pretty clear why it's such a big deal for someone to leave. It's not that other Christians aren't really Christians, but they don't have all of the knowledge that we have (speaking from the traditional Adventist perspective, not my own), so God winks at their ignorance. Adventists are held to a higher standared. If the SDA Church is the remnant, then anyone who has once been convicted of "the truth" but later rejects it is an apostate, and they must not ever have really understood Adventist beliefs, or they wouldn't have left. They are doomed to fall prey to all of Satan's deceptions and eventually to receive the Mark of the Beast.

I've experienced that attitude from family members and others just because I have questioned traditional Adventist beliefs. It's very difficult when you've been immersed in that kind of thinking all your life to face the possibility that much of what you've been taught may be wrong. I know that some people here have experienced condemnation and the loss of relationships when they actually decided to leave, and it's hard to take that risk as well. Leaving the Adventist Church changes so many facets of people's lives and even the way they relate to other people. That's why it's a big deal.

 

[Sophia7]

I got an Adventist friend over in Botswona Africa. He talks about how the Spirit is moving over there. I suspected it was sheep stealing aswell.

AT

I'm sure there is some of that going on, but don't be too cynical. Even if Adventists are wrong about some things, God can still use them to reach people for Christ. Paul rejoiced even in those who preached Christ with wrong motives:

PHP 1:15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
​

And there are Adventists who preach Christ.

 

[Eila]

This is where it comes from:

REV 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.​

___________________________________________________​

REV 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.​

​

I have a few issues with these texts that I would like to address. In the first text we have a woman who gave birth to Jesus. The church did not give birth to Jesus, Jesus gave birth to the church. I realize that many believe the woman represents the church. Even so, if the woman does represent the church then how can we interpret "commandments" to mean ten commandments?

Also, the remnant status was found before the group of Adventists accepted the Sabbath. Did they then discover these texts later? The remnant status was strong with the shut door. Were those texts in Revelation used to establish the remnant status then? I realize Adventists use those texts now, but where did this remant idea come from in the first place?

The Adventist Church teaches that Adventists are the only Christians who keep all of the Ten Commandments (especially the Sabbath, of course) and have the testimony of Jesus, which they believe is the "Spirit of Prophecy" (i.e. EGW) because they relate these texts to Rev. 19:10.

Also, how does one interpret the "spirit of prophecy" to mean EGW? Doesn't the text say that the truth of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy?

From that perspective, it's pretty clear why it's such a big deal for someone to leave. It's not that other Christians aren't really Christians, but they don't have all of the knowledge that we have (speaking from the traditional Adventist perspective, not my own), so God winks at their ignorance. Adventists are held to a higher standared. If the SDA Church is the remnant, then anyone who has once been convicted of "the truth" but later rejects it is an apostate, and they must not ever have really understood Adventist beliefs, or they wouldn't have left. They are doomed to fall prey to all of Satan's deceptions and eventually to receive the Mark of the Beast.

I've experienced that attitude from family members and others just because I have questioned traditional Adventist beliefs. It's very difficult when you've been immersed in that kind of thinking all your life to face the possibility that much of what you've been taught may be wrong. I know that some people here have experienced condemnation and the loss of relationships when they actually decided to leave, and it's hard to take that risk as well. Leaving the Adventist Church changes so many facets of people's lives and even the way they relate to other people. That's why it's a big deal.

That is sad. Sad that leaving the SDA church is equal to leaving Christ to some. Sad that leaving the SDA church is equal to being deceived of the devil to some.

Even my family who I would pretty much consider evangelical/progressive type SDAs had a very hard time with me leaving due to the remnant status. My salvation was questioned and I no where near came close to ever leaving Christ. I've discovered over the years since I left that it isn't how you keep the Sabbath day that matters, but if you believe you should keep the day. I could do the exact same thing as an Adventist on the Sabbath, yet it doesn't matter because I do not believe in the Sabbath like they do.

I too agree that it is very difficult to go from "I have the truth and I know what the Bible says about x, y, or z." to "I have Jesus and I don't know anything anymore." It was quite humbling. It was like being in the middle of a raging river holding on to the life-line of Jesus. I couldn't make sense of everything around me, but I held on to Him and He slowly taught me more and more. And I'm still in the learning process.

 

[Eila]

I'm sure there is some of that going on, but don't be too cynical. Even if Adventists are wrong about some things, God can still use them to reach people for Christ. Paul rejoiced even in those who preached Christ with wrong motives:

PHP 1:15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.​

​

And there are Adventists who preach Christ.

I agree Sophia. I know there are Adventists who preach Christ and do not focus on Adventist doctrine, but I've found that those are the exception rather than the rule. If Adventists desire to go and spread the good news of Jesus to the unreached I'm all for it. 40% of this world is unreached. However, I've found that the evangelistic efforts are typically to the already reached people groups - especially the Christians who worship on Sunday. Adventist Frontier Missions says this on their website "AFM is an Adventist Christian lay ministry dedicated to establishing church-planting movements among people groups with no Adventist presence."
The distinguishing factor here is people groups with no Adventist presence and not no Christian presence. That is a big difference.

Seeing that 40% of the world is unreached and Adventist spend their time, money, and efforts to reach those already reached it makes one ask why? Why would SDAs need to evangelize places where there is already a Christian presence? I think the answer is simple - it is the remant status. They believe that non-SDAs who believe in Jesus may not be saved. This again testifies to the works-based salvation that is prevalent among many Adventists.

 

[Sophia7]

I have a few issues with these texts that I would like to address. In the first text we have a woman who gave birth to Jesus. The church did not give birth to Jesus, Jesus gave birth to the church. I realize that many believe the woman represents the church. Even so, if the woman does represent the church then how can we interpret "commandments" to mean ten commandments?

Also, the remnant status was found before the group of Adventists accepted the Sabbath. Did they then discover these texts later? The remnant status was strong with the shut door. Were those texts in Revelation used to establish the remnant status then? I realize Adventists use those texts now, but where did this remant idea come from in the first place?

Also, how does one interpret the "spirit of prophecy" to mean EGW? Doesn't the text say that the truth of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy?

Well, as I said, those aren't my views, but those are the things that I've heard all my life. I think the Adventist remnant concept developed as a result of ripping texts out of their context.

That is sad. Sad that leaving the SDA church is equal to leaving Christ to some. Sad that leaving the SDA church is equal to being deceived of the devil to some.

Yes, I agree.

Even my family who I would pretty much consider evangelical/progressive type SDAs had a very hard time with me leaving due to the remnant status. My salvation was questioned and I no where near came close to ever leaving Christ. I've discovered over the years since I left that it isn't how you keep the Sabbath day that matters, but if you believe you should keep the day. I could do the exact same thing as an Adventist on the Sabbath, yet it doesn't matter because I do not believe in the Sabbath like they do.

I too agree that it is very difficult to go from "I have the truth and I know what the Bible says about x, y, or z." to "I have Jesus and I don't know anything anymore." It was quite humbling. It was like being in the middle of a raging river holding on to the life-line of Jesus. I couldn't make sense of everything around me, but I held on to Him and He slowly taught me more and more. And I'm still in the learning process.

I know what you mean. I've felt that way many times over the past several months.

 

[Sophia7]

I agree Sophia. I know there are Adventists who preach Christ and do not focus on Adventist doctrine, but I've found that those are the exception rather than the rule. If Adventists desire to go and spread the good news of Jesus to the unreached I'm all for it. 40% of this world is unreached. However, I've found that the evangelistic efforts are typically to the already reached people groups - especially the Christians who worship on Sunday. Adventist Frontier Missions says this on their website "AFM is an Adventist Christian lay ministry dedicated to establishing church-planting movements among people groups with no Adventist presence."
The distinguishing factor here is people groups with no Adventist presence and not no Christian presence. That is a big difference.

Seeing that 40% of the world is unreached and Adventist spend their time, money, and efforts to reach those already reached it makes one ask why? Why would SDAs need to evangelize places where there is already a Christian presence? I think the answer is simple - it is the remant status. They believe that non-SDAs who believe in Jesus may not be saved. This again testifies to the works-based salvation that is prevalent among many Adventists.

I agree. I believe that Adventists should focus on reaching those who don't know Christ.