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Featured Revelation 16:21 "..hailstones great as talentweight fall on men.."

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, May 12, 2019.

  1. Yes, I believe it is 70ad

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%
  2. No, it is not 70ad

    9 vote(s)
    75.0%
  3. I have never thought of it like that

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. I am unsure right now

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  5. other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Views on the hail stones in Revelation 16.

    Revelation 16:21
    And Hail<5464>, great as talent-weight<5006> is descending out of the heaven/sky upon the men,
    and the men blaspheme the GOD out of the blow of the Hail, that great is the blow of it, tremendous. [LXX # 5464 used in Ezekiel 38:22]

    5464. chalaza khal'-ad-zah probably from 5465; hail:--hail.
    ===========================
    In the OT, it is described as hail of stones:

    68 'eben eh'-ben from the root of 1129 through the meaning to build;
    a stone:--+ carbuncle, + mason, + plummet, (chalk-, hail-, head-, sling-)stone(-ny), (divers) weight(-s).
    417 'elgabiysh el-gaw-beesh' from 410 and 1378;
    hail (as if a great pearl):--great hail(-stones).
    H417 אֶלְגָּבִישׁ ('elgabiysh), occurs 3 times in 3 verses

    Eze 13

    11 “say to those who plaster it with untempered mortar shall fall. And becomes a downpour overflowing, and ye, stones<68> of hail<417> shall fall and tempest wind shall rend.
    13 Therefore thus says my Lord Yahweh: and I rend wind of tempests in fury of me and downpour overflowing in My anger shall become and shall become stones of hail in fury to finish.

    Eze 38:22
    And I judged him in plague, and in blood, and overflowing downpour and stones of hail, fire and sulfur I shall rain on him and armies of him and on many peoples with him.
    ==============================
    Some believe [as do I now], the Hail could be symbolizing the heavy stones cast by the Roman catapults in 70ad against Jerusalem.......

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/2009_ice_100-pound-hailstones.pdf

    PRETERIST SOPHISTRY
    “It is quite impossible that such gargantuan hailstones can be accounted for underthe most aggravated of meteorological conditions,” declares Dr. Kenneth Gentry. “Yet Josephus records for us an event so visually and effectually similar that what he records must be the fulfillment of the Revelational prophecy.”

    1 Dr. Gentry’s belief that Revelation 16:21 was fulfilled in the first century, as recorded by Josephus, is further explained in the following:
    Not only is the size mentioned the same (one talent, . . .), but the boulders thrown by the Roman catapults were white colored, as are hailstones.
    Would not the effect of the catapulting stones be virtually that of a hailstorm of such proportions?. . . Revelation’s prophecies find an impressive fulfillment in almost literalfashion in the Jewish War.......................
    ===========================================
    IBSS - The Bible - Revelation
    100 lb. Hailstones
    Revelation 16:21 tells how huge hailstones fell from heaven weighing a talent which is about 100 pounds. Josephus describes 100 lb. white stones coming from Roman catapults down on the Jews in Jerusalem (Jewish Wars, Book 5.6.3).

    https://www.kennethgentry.com/catalog/apocalypse.htm
    The prophecy of the talent weight hailstones has found a similar fulfillment in the siege of Jerusalem, according to the preterist. Josephus states of the catapults of the Roman tenth legion: "the stones that were cast, were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further.... As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color" (Wars 5:6:3). These stones not only had the weight required by John, but were the same color as hail.
    -----------------------------------------
    http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar04.html
    Now working.........

    After this success, John wanted to launch a preemptive strike at the Romans, who were building new camps to the west of the city: one for the legions XII Fulminata and XV Apollinaris and one for legion V Macedonica. But John was afraid that Simon would close the city gates behind his back, and did not assail the new camps. As a consequence, the legions were able to build their redoubts almost without any trouble; soon, their catapults started to throw heavy stones into the city. Under cover of this artillery fire, the Roman soldiers could start to bash the northern wall with their battering-rams.
    The Roman attack served to unite the Jews, who started to make sorties, but failed to destroy the new weapon that the Romans had prepared: siege towers.
    ===============================
    Go to 1 minute mark for catapaults

     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    A very interesting theory. One point about it though. Did John write Revelation before or after 70AD? I think that he was on Patmos afterwards and so got his revelation from the Lord then. If that was the case, and the hailstones were part of a future event, then it could not have been in 70AD.
     
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  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Yes, when Revelation was visioned and written is a matter of contention between the various eschatological view concerning that book.

    But we can also agree it is a historical book, since the events of the birth, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus in the 1st century shown in Revelation.

    Jesus' Birth, Crucifixion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension in Revelation.

    Matthew 1:21 and she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.’
    Luke 2:
    7 and she brought forth her Son — the first-born, and wrapped Him up, and laid Him down in the manger, because there was not for them a place in the guest-chamber.

    Revelation 12:5
    And she brought forth a Son, a male,
    Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff.
    and caught away was her Child unto God and His throne,


    Acts 1
    9 And these things having said — they beholding —
    He was taken up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight;
    10 and as they were looking stedfastly to the heaven in His going on, then behold! two Men stood by them in white apparel,

    John 19:30
    Then when Jesus had got the vinegar, He said "it has been finished!/tetelestai <5055> (5769)". And reclining the head He gives-up the spirit.

    Revelation 1:18 and the living One!
    And I became dead, and behold, I am living into the Ages of the Ages, and I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death
     
  4. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh brother.
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    This is indeed getting more and more fascinating:

    Deu 28:
    52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.
    53 “You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you.
    55 “so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.
    57 “her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.

    Luke 19:
    41And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
    42 saying, "That if Thou-knew, and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and
    thy enemies shall be casting up a siege-work<5482> to Thee,
    and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place.
    44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
    and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
    stead which not Thou knew the time of Thy visitation".
    ==================================================
    Revelation 8: A Preterist Commentary | Revelation Revolution

    Revelation 8:7 Preterist Commentary:
    Hail, Fire and Blood from Siege Engines . . .


    The hail, fire and blood mentioned in this verse were possibly all the result of Roman siege works. Predicting the impending siege and fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonian army in 588 B.C., Ezekiel poetically describes this siege in Ezekiel 13:10-15 in imagery denoting the coming of the Lord on the clouds of heaven as it is described in Psalm 18:7-15. In Ezekiel 13:10-15 the coming Babylonian siege of Jerusalem is described as a storm with violent wind, flooding rain and hailstones—all signs of the coming of the Lord on the clouds of heaven according to Psalm 18:7-15. Ezekiel 13:13-14 predicts the fact that Jerusalem’s walls would fall by violent wind, rain and hailstones:

    Therefore, thus says the Lord God, “I will make a violent wind break out in My wrath. There will also be in My anger a flooding rain and hailstones to consume it in wrath. So I will tear down the wall which you plastered over with whitewash and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation is laid bare; and when it falls, you will be consumed in its midst.

    The fall of the wall mentioned in v. 14 was fulfilled in 588 B.C. It was at this time that the Babylonian army by means of a battering ram broke through a wall in Jerusalem before massacring the people within the city.6 Ezekiel 13:13 also mentions “flooding rain.” Floods frequently symbolize invading foreign armies as is clearly indicated in Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; Jeremiah 46:7-8; Daniel 9:26; 11:10; 11:40; Joel 2:9 and Nahum 1:8. See In the Bible “Earth” Signifies the Specific Land Addressed While “Sea” Symbolizes Foreign Nations and The Poetic Biblical Link Between “Sea” and “Abyss”.

    But what about the hailstones? The hailstones mentioned in Ezekiel 13:13 also appear to be related to the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem. As stated above in 588 B.C., the Babylonians used a battering ram to topple the city wall. This battering ram was defended by siege towers from which soldiers shot arrows and hurled stones at the people defending the city walls.7 The hailstones mentioned in Ezekiel 13:13 appear to be these stones launched at the people of Jerusalem during this siege.8

    The hail mentioned in Revelation 8:7 also appears to symbolize stones launched by enemy soldiers into Jerusalem. However, these hailstones of Revelation 8:7 were probably much larger than the stones launched into Jerusalem during its fall in 588 B.C. The hailstones of Revelation 8:7 were boulders launched by Roman catapults.
    According to Josephus, these boulders were white and thus looked like giant hail stones when they fell to the earth.9


     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  6. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh brother, INDEED!

    Not only you are using a very poor Bible translation but you failed to read the context of verse 21.

    Revelation 16:17-21 KJV
    [17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    [18] And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    [19] And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
    [20] And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
    [21] And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    Did God really talk about Jerusalem in 70AD where people have experienced the worst earthquake every on record since the fall of man, where the "city divided into three parts" and the cities of the NATIONS fell? Do you have a precious historical record of an unbeliever about EVERY ISLAND fled away and mountains were no longer found? All of these related to Romans' catapulting stones upon the physical city of Jerusalem you believe were the hailstones of Revelation 16?! Seriously?

    You know what, your interpretation based on your researching with some silly preterism commentary website and youtube garbage is NOT supported by Scripture at all! I am curious what is Little Lamb's explanation for "every island fled away" and the "mountains were not found" in 70AD!
     
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Revelation 16:21
    And Hail<5464>, great as talent-weight<5006> is descending out of the heaven/sky upon the men,
    and the men blaspheme the GOD out of the blow of the Hail, that great is the blow of it, tremendous. [LXX # 5464 used in Ezekiel 38:22]
    ========================================================
    Revelation 8: A Preterist Commentary | Revelation Revolution

    Therefore, thus says the Lord God, “I will make a violent wind break out in My wrath. There will also be in My anger a flooding rain and hailstones to consume it in wrath. So I will tear down the wall which you plastered over with whitewash and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation is laid bare; and when it falls, you will be consumed in its midst.

    The fall of the wall mentioned in v. 14 was fulfilled in 588 B.C. It was at this time that the Babylonian army by means of a battering ram broke through a wall in Jerusalem before massacring the people within the city.6
    Ezekiel 13:13 also mentions “flooding rain.” Floods frequently symbolize invading foreign armies as is clearly indicated in Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; Jeremiah 46:7-8; Daniel 9:26; 11:10; 11:40; Joel 2:9 and Nahum 1:8. See In the Bible “Earth” Signifies the Specific Land Addressed While “Sea” Symbolizes Foreign Nations and The Poetic Biblical Link Between “Sea” and “Abyss”.............................
    =============================
    Isa 59:19
    And they fear from the west the name of Jehovah, And from the rising of the sun -- His honour, When come in as a flood doth an adversary, The Spirit of Jehovah hath raised an ensign against him.
    Dan 11:22
    And the arms of the flood are overflowed from before him, and are broken; and also the leader of the covenant.
    Dan 11:15
    'And the king of the north cometh in, and poureth out a mount, and hath captured fenced cities; and the arms of the south do not stand, nor the people of his choice, yea, there is no power to stand.

    Zec 12:2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem.
    =====================================
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

    Matthew 24:19
    Woe yet to those pregnant, and to those giving suck in those days
    Mark 13:17

    Woe yet to those pregnant,and to those giving suck in those days
    Luke 21:23

    Woe yet to those pregnant and to those giving suck in those days
    for there shall be great distress on the land and wrath on this people;

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    .........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof,................

    Revelation 9:6
    And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it; and they shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

    Famine and also Wall toppled at Fort Antonia by flooding rain.... [best viewed wide screen]

     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  8. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Don't waste your time looking for an explanation from some silly Preterist commentary. Tell me what you really understand by comparing Scripture with Scripture yourself regarding Revelation 16:17-21 in context of hails.

    Do you realize that the hail makes of water? So it is totally ridiculous that you tried to spiritualize hails of Revelation 16:21 as literal stones that Romans catapult upon Jerusalem in 70AD?! And while you failed to explain the context found in verse 17-20.
     
  9. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Slow down, Little Lamb...you need to learn to read the whole context and explain yourself before quote a single verse out of context as if you think this applies to 70AD:

    Revelation 9:1-2 KJV
    [1] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
    [2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

    Explain yourself and tell us, what star is this that fell from heaven? Did it happen in 70AD? And tell us why this star GIVEN the key of the bottomless pit? Who gave it to him? And you dare to think it happened in 70AD? Let hear this out from you, not Josephus, commentary craps, and youtube junkies. What is YOUR understand on this star from heaven? Is the key literal or symbolically? And why?

    What does the smoke signify that blocks the sun and the air? Explain how that fulfills in 70AD! Don't show us some stupid video if you think it is a literal smoke from "lake of fire".

    Revelation 9:3-4 KJV
    [3] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    [4] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

    Tell me Little Lamb...who does the smoke locusts represents that was given power "AS" the scorpions of the earth have power. What scorpions did God talk about? Romans? Explain yoruself!

    Who does the grass of the earth, green things and tree represents in your doctrine? And why God only instructed the locusts to hurt those men does NOT have seal of God. Explain this to fit your 70AD doctrine!

    Revelation 9:5-6 KJV
    [5] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    [6] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    Exactly how will these men without a seal of God torment five months? What is the torment of a scorpion in Scripture? Why will those men seek death? And why the deal flee from them? What death is it, REALLY?!

    Oh, and one more, thing, do you realize that there is an angel OF the bottomless pit in verse 11 rules over the locusts as Abaddon and Apollyon, so who do you think the angel is in 70AD then?

    Explain yourself. Stop quoting verse out of context until you first explain the whole context to see if you understand it properly.
     
  10. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    you have isolated the last verse from the context of the chapter and from the context of the rest of the book of Rev and then from the context of the rest of the Bible. If you take all the other elements if Rev 16 the hailstones will integrate with those specifics. The scope of Rev 16 is not Jerusalem it is the earth, all of it. The plagues are global the mark of the beast in Rev 13 is global and not regional. To equate Jerusalem as Babylon and then try to bring it home as the same judgement is not supported by the rest of scripture. The other plagues included rivers turning to blood, the sun scorching people, loathsome sores on those who took the mark of the beast. i dont think Josephus records this kind of stuff going on at the same time. The trouble with preterism is taking some truths and using them to support error which leads to a highly allegorical view of the text and dismisses that the prophecies might be literal and future.
    The things you have right is there is only one new covenant for salvation and all the saved will inherit the kingdom of heaven. The error is that the kingdom is not coming to this earth and we are in the kingdom age now and that the church is now Israel. The future view has the rise of antichrist coming and the abomination of desolation happening in a 3rd temple in the middle of the 70th week or 7 year tribulation. The fact Israel is a nation and is prepared to resume the sacrifices is huge evidence that the future view is true. I also would note that the boss is held responsible for those under him and a great boss or manager the results will reflect that. Does this world reflect the LORD Jesus as being in charge and a righteous kingdom that will have no end or does it reflect demonic, Satanic values and is moving towards a one world government that will persecute Christians that stand for the Biblical values and also will bring in a new cashless society? To claim everything out there now has no prophetic significance takes a lot of faith. I see as Habukuk noted the word of the LORD overtaking this generation. In Zech 14 the LORD is not king over the earth until Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD saves them in the day and does not wipe them out. REad ZEch 14, life continues on earth after the LORD has come as those nations which are left must keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain. That river that is formed and also a new valley but the river will flow year round. This is all future and clearly lining up to take place now.
     
  11. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    Just read the scripture literally for a change and see what it says in Revelation 8. The first trumpet sounds and fire, hail and blood are released. One third of all the trees and grass on earth are burned. I would imagine that one third of the cities will be toast as well. Think this was about Jerusalem? You must distort or symbolize scripture so that it means something entirely different to hold a Preterist View.
    The Bible explained the Flood and you believed there was a flood. The plagues of Moses' time were literal; they came and you believed those (hail dropping and turning to fire, frogs, locusts, the river turning to blood, the angel of death killing the first, etc.). You don't try to distort what happened back then, why try distorting future prophecy? Judgment Day effects the entire planet and everyone in it "as in the days of Noah"!!!
    Why is it difficult to understand huge hailstones?
    Because we haven't experienced them before?
    In Revelation 16, the Bowls of God's Wrath are released! So you really think this describes what happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD?
    Let's take a look:
    Bowl #1. Foul and loathsome sores affect all men. (vs. 2) [same as in Moses' time]
    Bowl #2. The sea turns to blood and all life in the sea dies. (vs. 3) [not it's the sea, not just the Nile]
    B3. Rivers and springs turned to blood. (vs. 4-7) [more blood]
    B4. The sun scorches men with fire. (vs. 8 & 9) [this is real global warming and btw, it's not caused by man]
    B5. The Beasts' kingdom is darkened and they gnaw their tongues because of pain. They blaspheme God. (vs. 10 & 11) [pain so severe, mankind gnaw their tongues]
    B6. Euphrates River dries up to allow forces from the east to cross and invade. This is the Battle of Armageddon. (vs.12-16) The aftermath of which is described as blood up to a horses bridle for 200 miles. That could represent hundreds of millions of dead bodies. It's also interesting that Israel takes 7 months to bury the dead (Ezek 39:12). *Since Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and killed tens of thousands of Jews, there was no house of Israel left to bury the dead now was there?
    B7. A great earthquake shakes the entire planet and all buildings and even mountains and islands are leveled. And then 100 lb. hailstones fall. (vs. 17-21) A worldwide quake where God shakes the entire earth. OT scripture supports this (Is. 13:13 "Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.")
    He could do this by His own power or as we've seen His use natural means, such as an super-volcanic eruption and/or asteroids striking the planet.

    A scientific explanation of 100 lb. hailstones.
    A 1 mile in diameter asteroid striking the ocean would create 100-300 ft tsunamis, sink 1/3 of the ships in the sea and kill 1/3 of the fish in the ocean (as described in Revelation 8 when the 2nd trumpet is blown: (something like a huge mountain on fire gets thrown into the sea). This asteroid impact would send trillions of gallons of water into the upper atmosphere. The water would freeze and come down in the form of up to 100 lb. hailstones. Another asteroid hitting land could rupture spew dirt into the atmosphere, block out a portion of the suns rays (as described) in that part of the world and rupture underground aquifers, poisoning the water as well (as described - people dying from drinking the water).
    Jesus literally fulfilled hundreds of prophecies - we don't distort them. OT prophecies were literally fulfilled in history - we don't symbolize them. So why symbolize the Second Coming of Jesus, Judgment Day? Take it literally - it's coming!
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    ^_^ Typical..............
    Thank you for your input.............

    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

    5006. talantiaios from 5007;
    talent-like in weight:--weight of a talent.
    G5006 ταλαντιαῖος (talantiaios), occurs 1 times in 1 verses
    =======================================
    5007. talanton neuter of a presumed derivative of the original form of tlao
    (to bear; equivalent to 5342); a balance (as supporting weights), i.e. (by implication) a certain weight (and thence a coin or rather sum of money) or "talent":--talent.
    G5007 τάλαντον (talanton), occurs 15 times in 8 verses

    Mat 18:24
    “And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.

    Mat 25:15
    “And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.
    Mat 25:16
    “Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents.
    Mat 25:20
    “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’
    Mat 25:22
    “He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’
    Mat 25:24
    “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
    Mat 25:25
    ‘And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
    Mat 25:28
    ‘Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Great info. Thanks for posting that.....
     
  14. ThatCanadianDude_88

    ThatCanadianDude_88 New Member

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    The OP is quite interesting, never actually seen this kind of theory before.

    But I do think that this is most likely moving closer to the actual explanation (Ronald's response).

    It can be hard to understand what is going on with end-time prophecies relating to the state of the earth, but if you do a little scientific research you can get an idea. The 6th Seal and 7th Bowl are similar, of which reflect what was prophesied by Isaiah. I think this is the primary explanation.

    Isaiah 24:19-21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    19 The earth is broken asunder,
    The earth is split through,
    The earth is shaken violently.
    20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
    And it totters like a shack,
    For its transgression is heavy upon it,
    And it will fall, never to rise again.
    21 So it will happen in that day,
    That the Lord will punish the host of heaven on high,
    And the kings of the earth on earth.

    The hailstones are one of several results of this reeling, the most significant one being the shortening of the days from 24 to 16 hours (Trumpet 5) which can be again be explained using science (conservation of momentum for a rotating body).

    But on the hail stones, the violent shaking of the earth is going to cause an unprecedented evaporative effect worldwide (mostly of the oceans). Remember 71% of earth is covered in water. Coupled with the atmospheric convulsions that will be going on at that time (inside air currents and drafts being generated), you'll essentially have "oceans" of water in the atmosphere being cooled to astronomical degrees, hence the gigantic hailstones.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Did that same type of global cataclysm also happen When David Defeated Saul and God Shook the entire heavens and earth??

    "The earth shook and trembled. The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken, because he was angry. Smoke went up out of his nostrils. Fire out of his mouth devoured. Coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down. Thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub, and flew. Yes, he was seen on the wings of the wind. He made darkness pavilions around himself: gathering of waters, and thick clouds of the skies. At the brightness before him, coals of fire were kindled. Yahweh thundered from heaven. The Most High uttered his voice. He sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and confused them. Then the channels of the sea appeared. The foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of Yahweh, At the blast of the breath of his nostrils" (2 Samuel 22:8-16)

    Or how about when the Medes Sacked ancient Babylon in 539 BC?

    The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw...
    Therefore I will shake the heavens,
    And the earth will move out of her place,
    In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
    And in the day of His fierce anger...
    “Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
    Who will not regard silver;
    And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
    Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
    And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
    Their eye will not spare children.

    (Isaiah 13:1,13,17-18)


    Yes.

    Seriously.

    Yahweh's various day-of-the-Lord judgments were signalled by the prophets with common apcalyptic language that consists of common apocalyptic idioms and metaphoric doom language. See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common apocalyptic metaphors in each:

    *Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
    *Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
    *Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
    *2 Samuel 22:8-16 -- the destruction of Saul's kingdom
    *Ezekiel 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

    In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

    *the destruction of earth
    *the bowing of the heavens
    *the melting of the mountains like wax
    *the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
    *the wiping away of every living thing
    *blood as high as the mountains
    *the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
    *Etc. etc.

    This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is Hebraic prophetic idiom used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matt 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)

    You have no scriptural instruction to interpret the OT phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of All Nations" as Metaphor (as you plainly do), yet apply a polar opposite, Hyper-Literal interpretation to the Near verbatim NT phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see"

    You have no scriptural instruction to interpret this OT prophesy about the Ancient Assyrian conquest of Jerusalem and Samaria as Metaphor:
    The mountains will melt under Him,
    And the valleys will split
    Like wax before the fire,
    Like waters poured down a steep place.


    Yet interpret this NT prophesy "Hyper-Literally":
    Revelation
    16:20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.


    I just did.
    Tell me why the OT scriptures I cited do not mean what I contend they do.

    Be sure and provide your alternative interpretation for each of the OT scriptures I cited, and provide Historical Evidence of the Mountains melting, valleys splitting, God being seen riding clouds, shooting arrows and kindling fire with His nostrils, the sun and moon going dark, the earth being split in two and burnt to a crisp, and the heavens being shaken, just as all these OT prophets describe happened in the various OT judgments that I have cited.

    Revelation 1:7's "he comes with clouds" and Matt 26:64's "hereafter you [Caiaphas] shall see the son of man...coming in the clouds of heaven" ARE THE SAME EVENT AS Revelation 14:14-20, which is clearly a depiction of a heavenly visitation, not some physical appearing in cumulus clouds. Read that Revelation 14:14-20 passage to see that ST. John is not thinking of a physical event in the skies overhead, but of an event in the heavenly realms. This was fulfilled in the Day of the Lord against Israel in AD 67-70 when Christ the Stone--the Lord of the Vineyard--came in their generation, and did grind them to powder as foretold (Matt 21:40-45; Matt 23:34-38; Matt 24:33-34).
     
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  16. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Unprovable either way...
    However, the vast Majority of published Scholars who've written on the topic favor the Pre 70 Date.
     
  17. ThatCanadianDude_88

    ThatCanadianDude_88 New Member

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    You cannot hold a preterist view of the end-times without both denying and distorting Scripture.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    All Christians are preterist.
    We only vary by degree..

    Now, would you care to address the scriptures I cited and explain to us why they do not mean what I contend??

    As I said in the post you just quoted:
    "Tell me why the OT scriptures I cited do not mean what I contend they do."
     
  19. ThatCanadianDude_88

    ThatCanadianDude_88 New Member

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    I'm not preterist.

    I doubt what I say will make a difference, considering that preterism requires committed eisegesis.

    In terms of both those passages, global cataclysm is not what is in view. It clearly is in view in the passage I reference, along with the rest of end-time prophecy that speak of what is to happen to the earth just prior to the Day of the Lord.

    Just because one passage speaks of the earth shaking metaphorically doesn't mean that every time we read of the earth shaking, it's always metaphorical.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So you Don't believe the Last Days were already underway in the first century as the Bible states they were?:
    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

    You Don't believe at least part of Joels "last days" prophesy was fulfilled at Pentecost as Peter claims it was?:
    Acts 2:14-17
    14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

    17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
    That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
    Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    Your young men shall see visions,
    Your old men shall dream dreams.


    You Don't believe the End of the Ages came upon Paul and his contemporaries as Paul claimed they did?:
    1 Corinthians 10:11
    11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

    You don't believe the "Last Hour" had already arrived in John's Day as he claimed?:
    1 John 2:18
    18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

    You would be the very first professing Christian I have ever come across who does NOT believe these scriptures mean what they say.
    And I submit to you that ONLY preterists believe the above scriptures mean what they say. So, If you believe the above scriptures are true and correct as written, Congratulations!

    You are a preterist.

    I agree

    What makes it "clearly" to you?

    Which one? There have been several "Day of the Lord" events in Biblical History.
    AD66-70 was but one of them.
    Indeed Jesus Himself called the AD66-70 event "The Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard"
    (Matthew 21:40)
    And "The Days of vengeance in fulfillment of all things written"
    (Luke 21:22)
    Do you disagree with Him on those as well?

    Where does scripture teach you how to tell the difference?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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