Revelation 13:7-8 what was John trying to say?

[Neostarwcc]

I'm sure by now you've heard the Reformed argument on Revelaton 13:7-8. In case you've never heard it basically the Reformed try to make the argument that John was saying that the names written in the book of life were written there before the foundation of the world. Mean8nb God chose who would be saved and who wouldnt be BEFORE he formed anything. We get this from several verses of scripture that talk about God's chosen people or when God talks about his chosen people. Or it just plain says it in the ESV and NIV. All other translations say something to the effect of "from before the foundation of the world when the lamb was slain."

I'm mostly curious about other views of what John could have possibly meant when he was talking about those not found in the book of life. How were they not found there? When were they written in? One cannot deny that there IS a book of life out there where the saved Holy Sheep of God are written. The bible talks about it several times and not just in the book of Revelation.

 

[eleos1954]

I'm sure by now you've heard the Reformed argument on Revelaton 13:7-8. In case you've never heard it basically the Reformed try to make the argument that John was saying that the names written in the book of life were written there before the foundation of the world. Mean8nb God chose who would be saved and who wouldnt be BEFORE he formed anything. We get this from several verses of scripture that talk about God's chosen people or when God talks about his chosen people. Or it just plain says it in the ESV and NIV. All other translations say something to the effect of "from before the foundation of the world when the lamb was slain."

I'm mostly curious about other views of what John could have possibly meant when he was talking about those not found in the book of life. How were they not found there? When were they written in? One cannot deny that there IS a book of life out there where the saved Holy Sheep of God are written. The bible talks about it several times and not just in the book of Revelation.

Does not God know the beginning to the end? Does not God know who will be saved and who will not? Does God not know what choices people will make? Yes to all.

He knows what all the choices will be .... but does not make the choices.

There is a difference ... and this is where the teaching of ...

God chose who would be saved and who wouldnt be BEFORE he formed anything

falls flat .... He knows the choices .... but does not make the choices for anyone.

 

[Rachel20]

You can resolve the problem if ALL names were written in the Book of Life, but only blotted out because of sin (nowhere in scripture will you find names being added to this book, only blotted out).

And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book Exodus 32:33

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

This is why scripture can claim those who keep the law can live by it, even though it is not by faith (Romans 10:5). Once we sin though, we need a redeemer so our sins will be blotted out of the other books instead (books plural - Daniel 7:10, Revelation 20:12)

Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Psalms 51:9

Thus our names can be written from the "foundation of the world" and yet the "whosoever" of John 3:16 still apply.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Does not God know the beginning to the end? Does not God know who will be saved and who will not? Does God not know what choices people will make? Yes to all.

He knows what all the choices will be .... but does not make the choices.

There is a difference ... and this is where the teaching of ...



falls flat .... He knows the choices .... but does not make the choices for anyone.

No, you're right I agree with you, God doesn't make or force people to choose God in Salvation and every Calvinist would agree with you virtually. I'm not going to address Hyper-Calvinism in this thread. But yes, you are correct God does not MAKE us make the choices, he works in us so we can even make the choice on our own because we are totally stuck in our sin without the interferance of God (Hence the teaching of Total Depravity and what scripture teaches). God uses the word of God to transform us at just the right time in our lives and it is the Holy Spirit doing the work, not ourselves. I know Arminians like to use Ephesians 2:8-9 to prove that we aren't saved by works but as an Arminian have you ever thought about what Paul meant when he said that salvation isn't of ourselves but is a gift from God?

God 100% plays a role in our salvation if God just looked into the future at the beginning of time he just would have seen mankind stuck in their sins and him having to judge them all one day. God had to interfere for without him we were without hope. See John Chapter 6 for the role that God plays in our salvation also Galatians 5:16-24 and... forgive I can't remember where exactly Paul says that we are stuck in our fleshly nature and God changes us, I tried doing a quick Google and couldn't find the scripture. I believe It's in Romans somewhere?

But yet, scripture also says that God chose a multitude of people from across the Earth from every tongue, tribe, and nation. Arminians seem to forget the promise that God made to Abraham all those years ago. He chose the Jewish people for crying out loud who were by far the least likely. He could have chosen mighty Egypt at the time but he chose a Civilization that's constantly on the brink of war and getting destroyed yet God has presevered Israel like he promised to this day and he will preserve Israel until the end. Do you think they honestly chose God on their own? No, God came to Abraham and said "I will make a mighty nation from you and through you all corners of the Earth will be blessed." and Abraham thanked and worshipped God for the rest of his life. Abraham might not have understood just how large his "chosen offspring" would be but, I guarantee he does now. God chose Abraham just like God chose all of us for our own purposes and talents and it wasn't based on anything that we've done, it was all according to his grace and mercy.

The rest according to the Jews just came from right of birth but obviously every Christian and Jesus Christ disagree with that. But, we could debate about this all day long I wanted this thread to not be about debating Reformed Theology and oops I debated lol. But, I and many other Calvinists and Reformed Christians have enough topics open debating this subject already and it's been hotly debated since the mid-late 19th century. I mostly was curious on everybodys take on Revelation 13:7-8. Especially the Arminian side, I'm fascinated with all kinds of Theology and know the arguments to virtually all sides.

 

[Neostarwcc]

You can resolve the problem if ALL names were written in the Book of Life, but only blotted out because of sin (nowhere in scripture will you find names being added to this book, only blotted out).

And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book Exodus 32:33

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

This is why scripture can claim those who keep the law can live by it, even though it is not by faith (Romans 10:5). Once we sin though, we need a redeemer so our sins will be blotted out of the other books instead (books plural - Daniel 7:10, Revelation 20:12)

Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Psalms 51:9

Thus our names can be written from the "foundation of the world" and yet the "whosoever" of John 3:16 still apply.

If that were the case though, every human being would have to be blotted out because we're all guilty of sin. As far as I know of, God has threatened to blot out his people from the book but, I've never come across a single verse that said that he actually did.

Like for example what you brought up in Exodus after the Jewish people made a golden Calf and worshipped it instead of the true God of the universe. God was exceedingly mad and was "apparently" going to blott them out. But we see Moses "Reminding" God of his promise to Abraham and God was like "You're right, I can't do that." XD

So... yeah. God can by every right erase people from his book but he won't because of his promise to Abraham and his decision that he made either while the world was around or before it.


As for Revelation 3:5 I don't see how that makes an argument for God erasing people from the book of life. If you ask me Revelation 3:5 is just yet another verse in the Bible proving Preserverance of the Saints A.K.A Eternal Security. Because the Apostle John says in 1 John 5:4 "It's those born of God who overcome the world". Jesus says in Rev 3:5 "those who overcome the world I will not blott out from the book of life but will confess that name before my Father and his angels." sounds like God's children will never get blotted out to me. But, I could be missing something *shrug*.

You may be right and before the beginning of time God wanted everyone in his book and had to erase people but it was done before God formed anything IMO. Not afterwards.

 

[Rachel20]

If that were the case though, every human being would have to be blotted out because we're all guilty of sin.

So true!! Unless ... we have a redeemer who blots out our sins! Who also was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8)

 

[1213]

I'm sure by now you've heard the Reformed argument on Revelaton 13:7-8. I...

I think it means, it has been said that righteous get the eternal life. And because God knows all people, He knows also who will be righteous. And that is why it can be already written who will have the eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I'm sure by now you've heard the Reformed argument on Revelaton 13:7-8. In case you've never heard it basically the Reformed try to make the argument that John was saying that the names written in the book of life were written there before the foundation of the world. Mean8nb God chose who would be saved and who wouldnt be BEFORE he formed anything. We get this from several verses of scripture that talk about God's chosen people or when God talks about his chosen people. Or it just plain says it in the ESV and NIV. All other translations say something to the effect of "from before the foundation of the world when the lamb was slain."

I'm mostly curious about other views of what John could have possibly meant when he was talking about those not found in the book of life. How were they not found there? When were they written in? One cannot deny that there IS a book of life out there where the saved Holy Sheep of God are written. The bible talks about it several times and not just in the book of Revelation.

I think the king James version of the scripture has it in a order that makes sense.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That scripture says, there is a book that their names are written in, the book belonging to the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. i.e. this fits with other scripture that God knew before hand that Jesus was to be crucified. Not He forced some to damnation, choosing them for destruction.

In my opinion predestination, is a horrible idea, that I don't believe originates with God. As the bible tells us "God is not willing that ANY perish but ALL come to repentance". - is God a lier, I think not.

 

[honey badger]

I'm sure by now you've heard the Reformed argument on Revelaton 13:7-8. In case you've never heard it basically the Reformed try to make the argument that John was saying that the names written in the book of life were written there before the foundation of the world. Mean8nb God chose who would be saved and who wouldnt be BEFORE he formed anything. We get this from several verses of scripture that talk about God's chosen people or when God talks about his chosen people. Or it just plain says it in the ESV and NIV. All other translations say something to the effect of "from before the foundation of the world when the lamb was slain."

I'm mostly curious about other views of what John could have possibly meant when he was talking about those not found in the book of life. How were they not found there? When were they written in? One cannot deny that there IS a book of life out there where the saved Holy Sheep of God are written. The bible talks about it several times and not just in the book of Revelation.

to understand this is to understand this ....Therefore when you shall see 'the abomination of desolation,' having been spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place--the one reading, let him understand--