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Revealing the Love of God

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Terry Cz, May 4, 2002.

  1. Terry Cz

    Terry Cz New Member

    21
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    From strathyboy,
    “You are tremendously idealistic, and that isn't necessarily bad, but you need to add in a big fat bucket of reality into your beliefs.
    First off, yes, many of the American actions in the past.... But you are ignoring the realities of life on the planet we call earth.”



    Friend,

    I am not idealistic nor am I ignoring the realities of life. I am simply a Christian. I do what Christ and His true followers have done for centuries. Even our atheist friend can see that there is no biblical authorization for our wars. Can one of you cite from any of the apostles words or actions (especially their example) where they endorsed war or a spirit of retaliation?

    Here is what Paul, who was attacked and beaten on many occasions, and who was ultimately beheaded had to say:

    Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep. Be in agreement with one another. Do not be proud; instead, associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Try to do what is honorable in everyone's eyes. If possible, on your part, live at peace with everyone. Friends, do not avenge yourselves; instead, leave room for His wrath. For it is written: Vengeance belongs to Me; I will repay, says the Lord. But If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. For in so doing you will be heaping fiery coals on his head.Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good. Romans 12:14-21

    And Peter, who went through many of the same abusive conditions without fighting back and was finally crucified:

    Now finally, all of you should be like-minded and sympathetic, should love believers, and be compassionate and humble, not paying back evil for evil or insult for insult but, on the contrary, giving a blessing since you were called for this, so that you can inherit a blessing. For the one who wants to love life and to see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit, and he must turn away from evil and do good. He must seek peace and pursue it, because the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and His ears are open to their request. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil. And who will harm you if you are passionate for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear or be disturbed. 1 Peter 3:8-14

    James:

    My dearly loved brothers, understand this: everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger, for man's anger does not accomplish God's righteousness. James 1:19-20

    My brothers, hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ without showing favoritism. haven't you discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my dear brothers: Didn't God choose the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that He has promised to those who love Him? Yet you dishonored that poor man. Don't the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? Don't they blaspheme the noble name that you bear?


    If you really carry out the royal law prescribed in Scripture, You shall love your neighbor color](neighboring countries) as yourself, you are doing well.[/b] But if you show favoritism, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all. For He who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not murder. So if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you are a lawbreaker. Speak and act as those who will be judged by the law of freedom. For judgment is without mercy to the one who hasn't shown mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

    What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you don't give them what the body needs, what good is it? In the same way faith, if it doesn't have works, is dead by itself. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe--and they shudder. Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless?
    James 2:

    What is the source of the wars and the fights among you? Don't they come from the cravings that are at war within you? You desire and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. You do not have because you do not ask. James 4:1-2

    And from John, the one who was the closest to Jesus, who was boiled alive and beaten numerous times as well . We hear nothing from him about retaliating and defending yourself from those who do not believe:

    Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command, but an old command that you have had from the beginning. The old command is the message you have heard.Yet I am writing you a new command, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. The one who says he is in the light but hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness, walks in the darkness, and doesn't know where he's going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:7-11

    Those who profess to love their fellow humans and yet are willing to drop bombs on them (or pay for them to be dropped) show they do not love anyone but their own self.

    For decades, many individuals have protested the slaughter that the U.S. and their allies have committed thought the earth. Some have exercised great faith and shown true compassion by violating laws prohibiting them to assist those who are labeled “the enemy”. These true believers face imprisonment and large fines from your government (U.S.) for attempting to follow the “golden rule”. This link is to one such example.

    http://www.nonviolence.org/vitw/pages/214.htm

    You look with wonder at those who stood by and watched Hitler kill his neighbors, and yet you protest if anyone attempts to raise their voices to the modern day genocides that take place in the name of your God. Truly this is a mystery.

    If God had asked you to give up any of the things that you mentioned, then you should. However all that has been asked of those of a murderous spirit is to quit killing your neighbors. That would not be too hard for you to do.
     
  2. strathyboy

    strathyboy Active Member

    761
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    Yes, all the verses you say are great. But the major question that must be posed is whether or not these verses apply only to individuals interacting with other individuals, or to governments interacting with other governments. I do not believe that all of these verses can be applicable to international politics.

    But if we insist upon using your logic, allow me to quote the following:

    2 Peter 2:10 - "But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities."

    Apparently it is evil to "despise government", so you should stop now.

    And just to point out one inconsistency in the verses you gave:
    "If possible, on your part, live at peace with everyone. "
    What if it is not possible?
     
  3. Terry Cz

    Terry Cz New Member

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    Have you not observed that the U.S. government is the voice of the people? This is very true particularly when it comes to war. Don't the polls show that 90% of the people (including christians) endorse this war? Those who love war will get the fruit of their heart. Soon God will allow someone with a bigger stick to come along and give the U.S. a whipping from all that it has done.

    At that time men will see what a murderous spirit is like in real life instead of from 7000 miles away as seen on T.V. God punishes sin with sin when it comes to the actions of a nation. When this happens you can know that I will weep for the American, as I weep for all those who are killed in senseless wars, regardless of what country they reside in. At that time Father will be my only protection. All men are my brothers and because I have no animosity toward them, they will likely have none toward me. I will reap what I have sown. If Father chooses that I should die, then I will submit to His will and not my own.

    Please do not hide behind the excuse that you cannot retaliate but your government can. This is absolute hypocrisy. What men say is that they cannot go to Afghanistan and slaughter, but they can pay a soldier to do it for them, and that makes it OK. What an absurd thought. Do you not know what accessory to a crime is?

    None of you are hiding anyway. Most of you have said you would kill someone else if your life were on the line. This is the real root of self protection. This is the spirit required to go to other countries and kill them in an unprovoked manner.

    Is this what is meant by “giving up your life”?
     
  4. strathyboy

    strathyboy Active Member

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    Can you exlain this statement? At what point have I been silent regarding modern day genocides? Apparently you have not read my previous posts in which I addressed some issues of which you speak.

    I am all in favour of waging war in order to protect the weak. In these cases, the US is the strong, and many other nations in which they have fought (Kuwait, Somalia, Yugoslavia, etc.) could be regarded as weak.
    Jesus said "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, this you do unto me". Now this verse is a big double-edged sword. It means that an unjustified war, or any of the atrocities committed by various nations, could be seen as an action against Jesus himself. But it also means that we who have the means to do so must bear some responsibility for those without the means to defend themselves and provide for themselves. If you would stand aside and watch as your "brother" is hurt or killed, what does this say about what you might do to Jesus himself?

    Here are a few verses along this line of thought...

    Acts 20:35 - I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

    Romans 15:1 - We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

    1 Timothy 1:18 - This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare.
     
  5. Terry Cz

    Terry Cz New Member

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    If a brother of any nationality or color were in the process of being hurt or killed, I would put myself between the two of them, just as I am doing with my brothers in Afghanistan.

    Let me give an illustration.

    Suppose you lived in a neighborhood with a mix of blacks and whites as well as the rich and the poor. One of your neighbors, Mr. Right, who you do business with on a regular basis comes to you and tells you that Mr. Wrong, who thinks your business practices are repulsive, has assaulted Mr. Right and slashed the tires on his car.

    After printing Mr. Right’s version of the story in your local newspaper on many occasions you observe that everyone is crying out for the protection of Mr. Right as well as for a little bit of revenge.

    Since you are the toughest person on the block, as well as the most militarily gifted, you march on down to Mr. Wrongs house. From a distance you shout through a bullhorn that Mr. Wrong needs to surrender to you, giving up all thoughts of ever working, earning an income and having a family. He thinks this over and decides to wait in his house for a while.

    At the appointed time you lob a grenade into his house. While the house is burning you see Mr. Wrong walking out of his house with his hands up in the air. You signal to one of your well trained neighbors who is positioned on top of another house and and with one shot, Mr. Wrong is brought to the end of his life with a bullet between the eyes. You all pat yourselves on the back because he did not surrender when he was asked to.

    As the house is continuing to burn, Mr. Wrong’s family begins to exit as well. You signal to your tanks who pepper the area with bullets until the wife, children, aunts and uncles are laying all over the place with blood flowing from their wounds. You congratulate yourselves that these people will not be able to bother Mr. Right again.

    Next you completely destroy the house and poison the water supply so that the surviving infants who you found inside will never be able to live there again but will always be dependent on you for their financial welfare via personal loans. You also put sanctions on the survivors so that if they do work, their incomes are barely survivable. You make it known that no one is to give medical attention or food to any of these who made it through the fire.

    All this is done because a man was assaulted and his tires were slashed. Months after the death of Mr. Wrong’s family you find out that the assault never really took place. Now tell me, who was the weaker person, Mr. Wrong, or the bully with the Military enhancements? This is what the good ol U.S. with its allies have been doing for many years now.

    As I mentioned earlier, Saddam killed 3000, in retaliation, the U.S. had killed up to 300,000 people, according to some reports. The figure rises to nearly 2 million counting those who have died as a result of the war and its sanctions.

    In the case of Afghanistan, several men who were from Saudi Arabia and attended U.S. military schools, slammed a plane into a building. 3000 people are dead including the assassins. In retaliation, the U.S. with its allies have killed as many as 30,000 people, many of whom were peasants and farmers, women and children, and continue to pulverize the country to this very moment. There is no way to know the death toll in Afghanistan as the U.S. does not tell the truth about these statistics and does not let anyone have access to the appropriate material to check it out.

    No friend I have not heard you lift your voice against the weaker nations whom the U.S. has been assaulting.

    I will tell you this. Father will be sending aid to the “weaker” nations of the earth whom the U.S. has been assaulting.
     
  6. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +2,585
    Atheist
    A government is not only the VOICE of the people - it is people.

    Governments don´t interact - people do.
    Countries don´t wage war - people do.

    Everything comes down to the individual level.

    Or where would you draw a line, strathboy?
    A man comes to you and tries rob you. Individual action - do you give him your money and restrain from calling the police?
    A group of bullies from the neighboring town plunders your shop - still individual action?
    Now the groups comes from the neighboring country and demands tribute from you - is this now politics and gives you the right to call the army?

    Where do you draw the line? I know it is difficult.
     
  7. strathyboy

    strathyboy Active Member

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    So? That's why there were conscientious objectors in the Vietnam War. That's why there are Americans now who dislike the American war effort.

    Drawing a line like this is far too nebulous. For instance, where is the line between mass murder and genocide? Again, I was simply posting alternate ways of looking at this issue. I did not say it was the only way, or that I agree with it. Terry's assertion that there is ONLY one way of interpreting the words of Jesus comes off as arrogant and confrontational.
    Your example's are not really good. In all cases, I would defend myself, my shop, and my nation. I feel completely justified by God in doing so. Yours and Terry's posts have only served to convince me more of the rightness of my position.

    Terry: You are ignoring the actions of other "Christian nations" in your accusations of the US. It is not possible to insult the US like you are without taking into account the actions of other nations, and not be blatantly contradicting.

    Thus far, you have ignored all scripture that I have posted. I consider your posts in their entirety, please do me the same courtesy.
     
  8. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +2,585
    Atheist
    Strathboy, in fact I would support your position.

    I think that everyone has the right to defend himself, his family and property, as well as his ideals.

    I just don´t understand how you interprete the mentioned verses, without going to ignore them completely.
     
  9. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +2,585
    Atheist
    As you asked for an interpretation of your quotes:

    Does not mean harm anyone in the process of supporting. And it does not give any clue for self-defense.

    1 Timothy 1:18 - This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare.

    Could be and is many times interpreted as referring to the spiritual warfare waged against disbelieve and false religion.
     
  10. Terry Cz

    Terry Cz New Member

    21
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    To strathyboy,

    I read your posts in entirety. It is just when the scripture says “love your enemy” I know what it is talking about. When the scripture says to “support the weak” it is not talking about world aggression. In the light of our sham wars, it is talking about the weak people whom oppressive governments (U.S.) are controlling.

    You are overlooking the absolute obvious in these scriptures. None of the disciples would endorse participating in any of the military endeavors of the United States or their allies. That is why Jesus said “my kingdom is not of this world.”

    To put it plainly as Jesus said “you err and know not the scriptures nor the power of God.”

    Your scripture applications allow for the lusts of the flesh to be fulfilled by the those who do not want to be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If one knew the power of God they would not need to go to other nations and slaughter them. Again we are not talking about someone assaulting your wife or children here.

    Mark Twain made a statement that goes something like this:

    “My life has been filled with many tragedies, most of which have never happened.”

    These events that men fear rarely take place. This applies to those who say they would protect their families. Why bother with such thoughts. Have you not read “the angel of the lord surrounds those who love Him and protect them”. I leave my angels to do the work they have been told to do. My work is to “bear the infirmities of the weak”, as the scriptures suggest.

    By the way, there is only one Christian nation in the land today and it is not the United States. It is the 144,000. The saints of God. Therefore I cannot comment on the actions of other “Christian Nations”.
     
  11. strathyboy

    strathyboy Active Member

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    I'm not ignoring them. I believe that they do not apply to all situations. For instance, "love your neighbour" does not mean "allow your neighbour to do as they please". If I am on a jury, I would have no problem with putting a guilty man into prison, despite the apparent lack of love involved in locking a man away.
    Personally, I would not want to ever be a soldier, and the only way I can ever see myself being one is if Canada was invaded by a foreign power. If this was the case, I would take up arms against a foe and kill enemy soldiers if necessary, despite the apparent lack of love involved.
    In Canadian (and American) society, we do not always show this love that is implied by Terry. We put the guilty into prison. We take people off of welfare if they don't deserve it. We fire people from their jobs if they are performing poorly. Despite my adherence to Christianity, and the fact that I try to "love my neighbour", justice must be served.
    Now that I think about it, I would say that the "love your neighbour" is still applicable in all situations. You can still love someone while putting them in prison. They performed an illegal action and must be punished.

    I make no excuses for the actions America has taken in the past and are taking now. But to issue a blanket statement like "war is always wrong and cannot ever be justified" simply isn't possible in a non-Christian world.
     
  12. Terry Cz

    Terry Cz New Member

    21
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    A slightly delayed response, but for reasons unknown I have not been able to post here until now.


    In reference to a statement that George Bush has the same spirit as Adolph Hitler, Blackhawk asked the following question.

    To your question I will answer yes!


    The following excerpt is from a Bangkok Post article relating to a recent a documentary film, Massacre in Mazar, by Irish director Jamie Doran.

    It was shown to selected audiences in Europe last week, provoking demands for an international inquiry into US war crimes in Afghanistan.


    “Doran's new film includes interviews with eyewitnesses to torture and the slaughter of some 3,000 POWs. It also contains footage of the desert scene where the alleged massacre took place. Skulls, clothing and limbs still protrude from the mound of sand, more than six months after the event.

    “While the documentary has become a major news story in Europe, it has been virtually blacked out by the American media. The UPI released a dispatch on the screenings last week, yet the existence of the film has not even been reported by such leading newspapers as the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post. The film and its allegations of US war crimes have been similarly suppressed by the television networks and cable news channels.

    "Massacre in Mazar then goes to describe the treatment meted out to the remaining thousands of captives who had surrendered to the Northern Alliance and American troops. A further 3,000 prisoners were separated out from the total of 8,000 who had surrendered, and were transported to a prison compound in the town of Shibarghan.

    “They were shipped to Shibarghan in closed containers, lacking any ventilation. Local Afghan truck drivers were commandeered to transport between 200 and 300 prisoners in each container. One of the drivers participating in the convoy relates that an average of between 150 and 160 died in each container in the course of the trip.

    “An Afghan soldier who accompanied the convoy said he was ordered by an American commander to fire shots into the containers to provide air, although he knew that he would certainly hit those inside. An Afghan taxi driver reports seeing a number of containers with blood streaming from their floors.

    “Another witness relates that many of the 3,000 prisoners were not combatants, and some had been arrested by US soldiers and their allies and added to the group for the mere crime of speaking Pashto, a local dialect. Afghan soldiers testify that upon arriving at the prison camp at Shibarghan, surviving POWs were subjected to torture and a number were arbitrarily killed by American troops.

    “One Afghan, shown in battle fatigues, says of the treatment of prisoners in the Shibarghan camp: "I was a witness when an American soldier broke one prisoners neck and poured acid on others. The Americans did whatever they wanted. We had no power to stop them. "Another Afghan soldier states, "They cut off fingers, they cut tongues, they cut their hair and cut their beards. Sometimes they did it for pleasure; they took the prisoners outside and beat them up and then returned them to the prison.”

    Original article is no longer available but was taken from www.bangkokpost.net. Other information on this incident is available on this google search.
     
  13. Terry Cz

    Terry Cz New Member

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    For those who do not know, your CIA is a very active organization throughout the globe. Here are a few details from former CIA workers.

    John Stockwell spent 13 years with the CIA serving as a case officer, among other duties. "In that job I sat on the subcommittee of the National Security Council. So I was like the Chief of Staff, with GS-18s, like three-star generals, Henry Kissinger, [CIA Director] Bill Colby -- the GS-18s in the CIA making important decisions. "The CIA was, in fact, forming the police units that are, today, the death squads in El Salvador. The leaders were on the CIA's payroll, trained by the CIA in the United States. We had the public safety program going throughout Central and Latin America for twenty-six years in which we taught them to break up subversion by interrogating people: interrogation, including torture, the way the CIA taught it.

    "Now, how do you teach torture? Dan Mitrione, I can teach you about torture, but sooner or later you have to get involved. You have to lay on your hands and try it yourself. They would pick up guinea pigs off the streets: beggars, and take them in to use in these torture training classes. Of course, the horror of that is these people wouldn't know why they were being tortured. They couldn't give up. They couldn't say: 'I'm sorry! Stop the pain! I'll tell you the names of everybody involved!' All they could do was lie there and scream!'

    "When they would collapse, they would bring in doctors who would shoot them up with Vitamin B and rest them up for the next class. And when they would die, they would mutilate the bodies and throw them out on the streets to terrify the population, so that everybody would be afraid of the police and the government. This is what the CIA was teaching them to do. "One of the women who was in this program for two years -- tortured in Brazil for TWO YEARS -- testified internationally when she eventually got out. She said the most horrible thing about it, in fact, was that the people doing it were not raving psychopaths. She couldn't break mental contact with them the way you could if they were psychopaths. They were very ordinary people.

    "She told about being tortured one day. She's on this table, naked in a room full of six men, and they're doing these incredibly painful, degrading things to her body. There's an interruption. The American is called to the telephone, and he's in the next room, and the others take a smoke break. She's lying on this table, and he's saying: 'Oh, hi honey. Yes, I can wrap it up here in another hour or so, and meet you and the kids at the Ambassador's on the way home.' As reported from the WINDS in an article entitled Who Are The Real Terrorist


    Here is another statement made by a former CIA worker who dosed people with LSD without their knowledge so that he could monitor their reactions.

    "I toiled wholeheartedly in the vineyards because it was fun, fun, fun" ...."Where else could a red-blooded American boy lie, kill, cheat, steal, rape and pillage with the sanction and blessing of the all-highest?" Captain George White in a letter to Dr. Sidney Gottlieb.

    Some of the CIA tortures carried out involved sensory deprivation, bodily function deprivation and sleep deprivation in rooms with no windows and continuous light. Other forms of mind control involved drug - induced comas, a wide variety of drugs, brain surgery (pre-frontal lobotomy), massive Page-Russell electric shocks, and electo-convulsive treatments combined with endless interrogations that were tape recorded. These interrogations were calculated to induce certain required answers from the "patient." These tape recorded sessions were then played back to the patient by means of a helmet outfitted with headphones. The helmet was worn for days with the tape playing endlessly. Many times a combination of these techniques was used until the broken patient would succumb to death. Many that entered the walls of the laboratories would never see family, friends or the light of day again. To say it was a living hellish nightmare for most, would put it mildly.

    These "special operations" were funded by the CIA through various intermediaries. Some had large financial interests in drug experiments. One such company was the Eli Lilly Company who told the CIA at its height of LSD manufacture that it could supply tons of the drug. George Bush, who was a CIA director and director of the President's U.S. Drug Task Force, was also director of Eli Lilly Company from 1977-1979. (The Big Book of Conspiracies, Doug Moench, p. 111).”

    A book describing “your tax dollars at work” was written by a former CIA worker who was with the CIA for 13 years. His name is Philip Agee and he describes methods used by the U.S. government in foreign countries. The book is entitled “CIA Diary. Inside the Company”. In a recent interview he had the following to say about foreign operations.

    ...some of the more egregious operations have been the activities that the CIA has undertaken with the foreign intelligence and security services of other countries. This is where the CIA has gotten involved with death squads, torture and so forth. It begins very early on also and continues on into the 1990's. I worked on these operations myself, they're called liaison operations.

    “ They tried to assassinate Lumumba in the Congo on the 1960's, there was an attempt against Cho-Enli the Chinese Premiere. They did carry out the assassination of Tru Heyo, the Dictator of the Dominican Republic. Because he was turning to Moscow, relations with him went sour with the United States. The Agency has been supposedly barred from assassination since an executive order was executed by Ford around 1976. This executive order is still in effect. It prohibits the CIA to seek the assassination of a chief of state or something that could cause the assassination of a chief of state in a foreign country. In actual fact, the great great overwhelming numbers of murders caused by the CIA are not done directly. The CIA officers, like I was, do not go out and pull the trigger on somebody in no way, you get other people to do it. “

    Click here to read interview.
     
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