Revealing the Love of God

[Terry Cz]

strathyboy,

War is a completely normal activity for the carnal man. The reason it is so inapropriate for Americans to participate in is because they say they follow Christ. It is all quite simple. Jesus does not force His will on others.

 

[strathyboy]

Originally posted by Terry Cz
strathyboy,

War is a completely normal activity for the carnal man. The reason it is so inapropriate for Americans to participate in is because they say they follow Christ. It is all quite simple. Jesus does not force His will on others.

At what point is it appropriate for a "Christian" nation to participate in a war? Never?

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Terry Cz
strathyboy,

War is a completely normal activity for the carnal man. The reason it is so inapropriate for Americans to participate in is because they say they follow Christ. It is all quite simple. Jesus does not force His will on others.

Jesus does not force His will on others? What is hell? What did Jesus do when He threw the merchants out of the temple?

Also I would say that on a personal level (if I can take Coastie's earlier example) if I just let someone kill my wife without trying to stop them then I do not love my wife and I am just am guilty of her murder also. I have to try and stop the bad guy from hurting her. I love her. If you would not do this for someone you love then you do not truly love them. Jesus said that love is laying down our life for others. He did this in a real physical way and I need to do it also if called upon.

Now if we take it to a national level I think it is perfectly just to fight for a country who is being supressed by another. For example Kuwait was taken over by Iraq. To go in there to free Kuwait would be just. That would be what Augustine called a "Just war." I think it is clearly supported in scripture which does not have too much to say about it after the old Testament.

Now I know the U.S. has not always fought wars for just reasons or done everything 100% justly. But I feel that it is the best and most just country in the world. Some might disagree with that but I do not see how anyone can disagree that it is not a very just country (in human standards) and that we are free (politically speaking) so we can make it more and more just in the future.

I praise God that I was born in the U.S. and that I was born a Texan! Cause every good Texan knows that Texas is "God's country." I have a joke but I will wait until a better moment.

blackhawk

 

[coastie]

War is a completely normal activity for the carnal man. The reason it is so inapropriate for Americans to participate in is because they say they follow Christ. It is all quite simple. Jesus does not force His will on others.

So by taking anothers life are you not saving the lives of another. I'd rather take and active approach and find a way to stop the killing than to just hide under my table praying that it'll stop.

God gave men courage. David had courage when he slew Goliath. It's a trait that God has given us to protect his investment in the Christian people of the world.


Blackhawk, good post brother.

 

[Freodin]

A very interesting disussion.

I started a thread dealing with this topic in the general forum. Would you care to come over and participate?

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16475

 

[Terry Cz]

From strathyboy At what point is it appropriate for a "Christian" nation to participate in a war? Never?

I would say that it is right to go to war if God said to go to war. Which one of you can stand up an say that God specifically told them to attack all the countries that the U.S. has done in the last 50 years, including Afghanistan? He definitely gave Moses and Joshua, etc. orders, but He has not spoken these orders to anyone like that in our age.

To Blackhawk
Yes Jesus threw out the money changers, did He kill them all? And you are very right about Him laying down His life for others. He let them kill Him without any resistance. He knew His Father was in control and did not try to save His life.

If someone were to try to harm my wife I would stand in
their way in order to prevent them. I would not raise a hand nor fire a gun. I would merely let them know their actions are not acceptable. If they did something inappropriate, was there not a God who was watching and allowed it to happen. Isn’t there a saying something like “Let go and let God”? Let God What? Let God be in control.

I have been in circumstances to test the above principle. When I try to protect myself, God stands back and says “go for it”. When I stand back and let God be my protector, He says “I will”.

Men use the example of someone attacking their wife or children to justify murdering someone else. These circumstances usually never happen but they do reveal the intentions of the heart. Right now no one is attacking your wife and children. Right now, as we speak Americans are killing your neighbors wifes and children in a foreign land, seven thousand miles away.

You are correct, by protecting ourselves in killing or injuring others we demonstrate that we have not laid down our lives as Jesus did. Thereby proving we do not love anyone but ourselves.


If you would apply the U.S. mindset of retaliation to the life of Christ, Jesus would have gone out and killed Pilot, the Roman soldiers, and everyone else involved in His murder, after His resurrection. He did not do this though. He followed His own words “Forgive them Father because the do not know what they are doing.”

Another example of this inability to let Gods will be done is in how men react to the fires that are burning in the land. Father allows a lightning strike to start a forest fire. All men pray “stop the fire, stop the fire, please don’t let my possessions be burnt up.”

A 7000 acre fire is burning 6 miles away and a neighbor ask me to pray, so that he doesn’t lose anything. I will have to pray that Gods will is done. Maybe it is His will that some men lose their possessions, maybe it is not. I will pray that His will is done.

 

[coastie]

I will have to pray that Gods will is done.

God's will will be done anyway, I don't think he's waiting around for you to concur with his decisions.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Terry Cz

To Blackhawk
Yes Jesus threw out the money changers, did He kill them all? And you are very right about Him laying down His life for others. He let them kill Him without any resistance. He knew His Father was in control and did not try to save His life.

But He did assert His will and morality upon others. He "forced His will upon others." Which you said He never did. Also He will assert His will greatly when He comes again and makes Peace on Earth and He lets some go to Heaven and others to hell. That clearly goes against your view of how God acts. He is not only gentle He is also Justice personified.

If someone were to try to harm my wife I would stand in
their way in order to prevent them. I would not raise a hand nor fire a gun. I would merely let them know their actions are not acceptable. If they did something inappropriate, was there not a God who was watching and allowed it to happen. Isn’t there a saying something like “Let go and let God”? Let God What? Let God be in control.[/B]

Well then could I not ask yu then why did you stand in the way? "Was there not a God who was watching and allowed it to happen?" I would not fight the other guy unless I thought there was no other recourse but if I had to I would to protect my wife.

I have been in circumstances to test the above principle. When I try to protect myself, God stands back and says “go for it”. When I stand back and let God be my protector, He says “I will”.

Men use the example of someone attacking their wife or children to justify murdering someone else. These circumstances usually never happen but they do reveal the intentions of the heart. Right now no one is attacking your wife and children. Right now, as we speak Americans are killing your neighbors wifes and children in a foreign land, seven thousand miles away.

You are correct, by protecting ourselves in killing or injuring others we demonstrate that we have not laid down our lives as Jesus did. Thereby proving we do not love anyone but ourselves. [/B]

First of all do not presuppose why I used that example. I find you saying that I used it so i could "... justify murdering someone else." to be wrong and insulting. You do not know me or much of what I believe. This comment was very judgemental and shows not that much compassion.

Also killing is not the same as murder. God Himself commanded the Isrealites to kill. He had them destroy the inhabitants of Jericho and conquer the holy land. He had David kill Goliath who was threatening His chosen people. And the list can go on and on of God using us do His will among other nations. So again your view of God is just not what He was like. Oh and before you pull the OT/NT thing know that God is always the same. So God did not change.

If you would apply the U.S. mindset of retaliation to the life of Christ, Jesus would have gone out and killed Pilot, the Roman soldiers, and everyone else involved in His murder, after His resurrection. He did not do this though. He followed His own words “Forgive them Father because the do not know what they are doing.”[/B]

Jesus had a specific mission in his life. He was called to die for us. If He would of done that then He would of been out of God's will. now are we called to a physical death like His? I do not see where we are called to do that. We are called to humble ourselves and give our lives over for others but I do not see where that has to mean a physical death.

But God has shown many times in the Bible that we should protect others in our civilzation. Going over to afghanastan or whereve is protecting us. Also we are protecting the Afghan people who were basicallyt enslaved to the Afghan government. Now they have more a of a chance to have a better life and hopefully we will stick around and help them do that.

Another example of this inability to let Gods will be done is in how men react to the fires that are burning in the land. Father allows a lightning strike to start a forest fire. All men pray “stop the fire, stop the fire, please don’t let my possessions be burnt up.”

A 7000 acre fire is burning 6 miles away and a neighbor ask me to pray, so that he doesn’t lose anything. I will have to pray that Gods will is done. Maybe it is His will that some men lose their possessions, maybe it is not. I will pray that His will is done. [/B]

Sure everything that happens is only because of God's will and that some worry about their possesions to much. But I would not judge them so harshly that you do not pull out the plank out of your own eye. If you just said to your neighbor "It was God's will" then that shows no Compassion to them. No gentleness. No long suffering. No patience or kindness. I know that this was probably a hypothetical but we have to remember that people that live around us (and we ourselves) are human and are nto perfect. We have to gently lead them into a better understanding of God's will.

blackhawk

 

[coastie]

If someone were to try to harm my wife I would stand in their way in order to prevent them. I would not raise a hand nor fire a gun. I would merely let them know their actions are not acceptable. If they did something inappropriate, was there not a God who was watching and allowed it to happen. Isn’t there a saying something like “Let go and let God”? Let God What? Let God be in control.

I'm sorry, I trust God, but what's to say God's will isn't for me to help my wife. You believe what you want, but if you ever stand by and let somebody kill your wife, you will spend your life in jail.

I have been in circumstances to test the above principle. When I try to protect myself, God stands back and says “go for it”. When I stand back and let God be my protector, He says “I will”.

I don't think you've ever been physically beatne up. There comes a point when you've turned both cheeks and it's time to defend yourself.

Men use the example of someone attacking their wife or children to justify murdering someone else. These circumstances usually never happen but they do reveal the intentions of the heart. Right now no one is attacking your wife and children. Right now, as we speak Americans are killing your neighbors wifes and children in a foreign land, seven thousand miles away.

This example was intended to be used to relate the situation on a smaller scale, but it appears you don't understand either example. Prevent death by making death. Yeah, it doesn't sound pretty, but it is neccessary.

However, to assume someone's motives like you did is absolutely wretched. I was the one that made the example to begin with. Do I want to kill? Do you honestly think I want to kill? That's pretty self-righteous of you! It's time to dive into some serious prayer, brother, because you are developing a spiritual superiority complex if you really think that your motives are so much more pure than ours.

You are correct, by protecting ourselves in killing or injuring others we demonstrate that we have not laid down our lives as Jesus did. Thereby proving we do not love anyone but ourselves.

SO are you suggesting that the soldiers who fought in WWII were only fighting for selfish reasons? Because that is completely ridiculous. What selfish person would go to war with such a liklihood of losing their lives in order to protect a nation.

I think it'd be more selfish to sit at home and criticize those over seas fighting the war than to actually be involved in it.

Another example of this inability to let Gods will be done is in how men react to the fires that are burning in the land. Father allows a lightning strike to start a forest fire. All men pray “stop the fire, stop the fire, please don’t let my possessions be burnt up.”

You have no idea what you are talking about. Wildfires do more than destroy homes and possesions... they also destroy hundreeds upon thousands of years of nature including innocent animals, beautiful trees and yes put's lives in danger.

So let's disect what you've stated so far...

Soldiers are evil for killing in war.
Husbands who kill or harm to protect their wives actually have evil intent.
Firefighters who fight fires have contempt for God's will.

Sorry, brother, I see no logic whatsoever to your claims.

 

[strathyboy]

Originally posted by Terry Cz
From strathyboy At what point is it appropriate for a "Christian" nation to participate in a war? Never?

I would say that it is right to go to war if God said to go to war. Which one of you can stand up an say that God specifically told them to attack all the countries that the U.S. has done in the last 50 years, including Afghanistan? He definitely gave Moses and Joshua, etc. orders, but He has not spoken these orders to anyone like that in our age.

Recently myself and my college/career group at my church had a class regarding war and the bible with the pastor of my church. We got into all of these discussions and all of the points you are raising here were raised there. While the bible makes it very clear that war is not a good thing, it also makes no definite stance towards absolute pacifism.
First, I must note that in America and most Western nations, there is a separation of church and state. I believe this is good, and many Christians would agree with me. Thus, to hold the entire nation of the US to Christian standards is silly.
Second, when was the last time God specifically told any nation to attack another? The last time I can think of is back in the Old Testament. And yet I see you have no problem with the US entering the war against the Nazis in Germany. Note that the Nazi's at no point did anything against the US until the US entered the War. To protect themselves, the US by your definition should only have defended against the Japanese.
This brings up another point: should Naziism have been stopped? Do you agree with the holocaust? Yes, I'm being melodramatic, but if the Nazi's hadn't been stopped, they would have wiped the Jews off of the earth. Is it still then the duty of Christians to sit back and watch until the Nazis come after them specifically?
Yes, I will agree that many of the actions of the US in the past 50 years (most notably the CIA) are very questionable, and many were most definitely bad ideas. But there are causes worth fighting for, and, like the bible says "there is a time for war, and a time for peace."

 

[Terry Cz]

Many believe there is a separation between church and state.

For Americans, speaking in a general sense, since 90% believe themselves to be Christian, the State is their church. Your congressmen can and do exercise a right to pray. I have become acutely aware that they are not praying to a God of love. They pray to a God of War like the Jews do. They worship the same God as does the Jew. They have both rejected the Messiah that was sent to them.

What Americans do not realize is that they are the same as everyone else. They are the same as Hitler, Saddam, and Osama. Yes George Bush is in the same league as the men I mentioned. He just thinks he is better, just as everyone else thinks of themselves. Americans think they serve the right God as everyone else does.

Because of their mindset, it is only natural (the natural man) for them to jump into the middle of someone's argument and become the executer of judgment.

Example, Saddam Hussein kills 3000 individuals. The grand old, self righteous, ever exalted Americans jump into the fray and slaughter 150,000 Iraqi citizens. In this they think they have done a good deed. They do not realize they were even worse than Saddam. They are the bigger bully.

Since atacking Iraq, Americans have killed 1.7 million Iraqi individuals, mostly children under 5 years of age by starving them to death. Have you not read that they “could not buy or sell except they worship the beast”. This is an example of what that scripture is talking about.

To be honest with you, the U.S. has not been involved in a “just” war since it fought the English on American soil 200 years ago. At that time they were fighting for their freedom. Since that time the U.S. has been the aggressor of the world.

Tell me, is there any nation who has killed more people than the U.S. in the last 50 years?

If the U.S. military kills someone, it is considered protecting freedom. If a Muslim or a Communist (the devil of the past) kills someone it is considered an act of terrorism. Can you not see the contradiction. Americans say “we are Christians, we always kill the bad guy, we are always the hero, we are never in the wrong because God is on our side.”

In your question about the Nazi regime, no one knows what could have or would have happened. That is the catch about killing someone. If you hold a gun to my head, and my wife shoots you, we would never have known what would have happened. All we know is that based on self protection and fear, my wife (in this example) took your life.

Isn’t there a scripture that says “Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord.” Men are unwilling to believe “The Word”.

It is almost too hilarious to read the signatures of many of the participants in these “Christian” discussions forums. They quote all these warm and fuzzy statements about a loving God and spreading the “good news”. Others say that nothing can separate us from Gods love, and then turn right around and disprove all their statements by their interest in taking another mans life. “Kill anyone who appears to take away my kingdom” is the real intent of their hearts.

Isn’t there a saying that goes something like this “actions speak louder than words”? This is the God that the rest of the world sees in America. How many countries have lost their lives and freedoms at the alter of the “loving democratic God”? For America there is never a time of peace because a time for war is such good economical business.

 

[Blackhawk]

Terry Cz,

Your post really scares me. And I mean that. It really scares me.

Okay let's wuickly go over what you said in this last post.

You said that George W. Bush is the same as Hitler. Which I have never even seen mentioned by any democrat. I know I as a Republican would never say that Clinton was equal to Hitler or Stalin. I can't believe you even made that statement. it is so far off it crazy. Are we doing any experiments on the captives that we have from the Afghanastan? Are we heating up any ovens or anything like that? No. And Stalin did even worse things.

You also say that we are starving Iraqi children to death. However I know you have failed to say that the Iraqi governent is still vvery rich but will not feed its people. So what would you say we do? I say that we get rid of the government who is actually starving the children. that would bethe most compassionate thing to do. I think you are going to say let's just let him do it and God will judge. Well throughout scripture God uses nations and people to judge other nations.

Also you said the WW2 was not a just war. So it was not okay to stop Hitler. And the confederate war was not just also. So ending slavery in the U.S. was also wrong for us to do.

Okay I can't go through anymore dribble. This is horrible stuff.

blackhawk

 

[tom]

i heard alan jackson song to very inspireing
i was touched by it to[GLOW=royalblue]touchby it[/GLOW]

 

[strathyboy]

Terry Cz:

You are tremendously idealistic, and that isn't necessarily bad, but you need to add in a big fat bucket of reality into your beliefs.
First off, yes, many of the American actions in the past 50 years are very debatable, and in that we agree. And yes, some of the posters in these forums can get very protective when you in any way attack the US (which I know from personal experience), regardless of how much proof you might have.
But you are ignoring the realities of life on the planet we call earth.
You are blatantly ignoring the less than proper actions of western nations since Christ. For instance, I do not see you attacking Britain (at the time a very Christian nation) for the evils of colonialism. I do not see you attacking the Prussians (at the time a very Christian nation) for starting the 30 Years War. You seem bent on attacking the US and only the US, when every single other nation in the history of the world has committed terrible acts as well. If you attack American imperialism, then you must agree that other "Christian" nations are equally guilty of the same imperialism.
Second, I greatly question your definition of a "just war". You've made it clear that you do not believe a stronger power is justified in coming to the aid of a weaker power, so in this we will likely never agree. If I see my younger brother being hurt by a bigger child, I will step in a solve the situation, with force if necessary. I strongly believe WW1 and WW2 were "just wars" from the allied positions, and I believe the US should have entered them (which they did).
Third, involving the Nazi's. I question your humanity if you believe that we should have sat back and watched as they were annihilated. Yes, I know that the salvation of the Jews is not the reason why the US or anyone else entered the war. But if the Allied nations had not stopped Hitler, all Jews would now be dead.
Fourth, you seem to believe that divine intervention is the only way in which God works; that unless God physially comes down and says "thou shalt wage war", the war is unjustified. God can, and does, work through human agents on earth, and uses all things to accomplish his will.
And lastly, you seem to believe that humans should sit back and wait until Jesus "wins the battle for us". Well, in reality this just doesn't work. As humans, we can pray for guidance, but in the end WE must do something ourselves. We should be trying to create a better world. We should be protecting the weak from the strong who would terrorize them.
And above all, how are we showing the love of God when we say to someone in another nation "we're all fine over in America/Canada, so why should we help you?"

 

[Freodin]

strathboy:

The PRUSSIANS starting the 30 years war????

I would have not been surprised if you were an American, but I always thought that Canada had a rather good school system.

 

[strathyboy]

"The PRUSSIANS starting the 30 years war???? "

My bad. It was the Bohemians. Although Prussia became involved in it later.
And in the future, if you disagree with something I post, please post what you believe to be true, instead of tossing off an insult.

 

[Freodin]

Originally posted by strathyboy
"The PRUSSIANS starting the 30 years war???? "

My bad. It was the Bohemians. Although Prussia became involved in it later.
And in the future, if you disagree with something I post, please post what you believe to be true, instead of tossing off an insult.

Prussia was never involved in the 30years war. It was a polish duchy at that time. Brandenburg was involved, in spite of it´s rulers tries to stay out of it.

But back to the topic:

The whole concept of "just war" is riddled with problems.

Who defines when a war is "just"? The winner?

You think that WW1 was a just war for the allies. Why? Because Germany attacked first - trying to escape a ruinous war on two fronts?

And how do you explain the "other cheek" philosophy? Do you think the intend was just "Oh, it would be nice if you could do that, but don´t worry if it doesn´t work."?

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Freodin


The whole concept of "just war" is riddled with problems.

Who defines when a war is "just"? The winner?

You think that WW1 was a just war for the allies. Why? Because Germany attacked first - trying to escape a ruinous war on two fronts?

And how do you explain the "other cheek" philosophy? Do you think the intend was just "Oh, it would be nice if you could do that, but don´t worry if it doesn´t work."?

God ultimately defines when a war is just. However I would say that in practical terms we all do. The government will say this is a "just war" (of course not in those terms) and then we as individuals decide if it is or not. But whatever we decide God has the ultimate judge of it.

I thin "turn the other cheek" is a principle not a law. It is to show that we should strive for peace whenever possible. That we should go out of our way for peace. But I do not think that God would of accepted our not getting involved in WW2 when Hitler was doing all the evilh he was.

If you take a couple of verses from the Bible that show a principle and then say it is law then there is a problem. You have to remember the same Godwho loves peace and "turns the other cheek" is the same one that has righteous fury and will show justice when He returns again.

blackhawk

 

[Freodin]

Originally posted by Blackhawk


God ultimately defines when a war is just. However I would say that in practical terms we all do. The government will say this is a "just war" (of course not in those terms) and then we as individuals decide if it is or not. But whatever we decide God has the ultimate judge of it.

Sadly, God doesn´t bother to tell us. The government tells us, quite certainly! Every government ever going to war claimed it was a "just war".
As for the individual: what may seen just to you, must not be just for another.

Based on the politcal situation of that time, a certain socio-economical school and the nationalsocialistic philosophy, WW2 was a "just war" for Germany. It fought for survival, against extermination by the evil jewish race.

(Almost) no one else agreed with them, but does that mean they were wrong?

I thin "turn the other cheek" is a principle not a law. It is to show that we should strive for peace whenever possible. That we should go out of our way for peace. But I do not think that God would of accepted our not getting involved in WW2 when Hitler was doing all the evilh he was.

If you take a couple of verses from the Bible that show a principle and then say it is law then there is a problem.

I not quite sure of the qualitative difference between a law and a principle.

Basically, I have no problem with your position. My problem is with the assertation that these "priciples" or "laws" that are proclaimed in the Bible are absolute.

So when Jesus said, "When in this situation, act a certain way." is this the right way to act - or should there be the addition "... but if you don´t feel like it, do as you please."?

You have to remember the same God who loves peace and "turns the other cheek" is the same one that has righteous fury and will show justice when He returns again.

blackhawk

You have to remember that I don´t believe in this God, and that I don´t believe that the Bible is his inerrant word.

I simply don´t understand how you, who should believe this, can so easily do away with certain "principles".

 

[strathyboy]

God says to "love your neighbour as yourself". Perhaps I should quit my job, since it would be unfair for me to take the job away from another human. Perhaps I should drop out of school, because my place could be taken by another, more deserving person. Perhaps I should stop eating, since people are starving all over the world. Perhaps I should live on the street, so someone else can have my apartment. Perhaps I should stop going to class or working out at the gym, since I should be spending that time showing God's love to the world, not keeping myself in shape mentally and physically. Perhaps I should never drive my car again, because I am contributing to the pollution that will harm other human beings. Perhaps I should not ever read anything but my bible, since God's word is more important than anything else.
All of these would be in keeping with supposedly fundamental principles from Jesus. But there is a point where rampant idealism must take a back seat to the cold, hard reality of life.