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Reve 18:16 "woe! woe! the great City arrayed with fine linen, purple

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, May 24, 2019.

  1. Jersusalem

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  3. I don't know

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  4. Other

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  5. 1st century OC Temple/Sanctuary/Priesthood

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  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Revelation 18 is an interesting and revealing chapter that describes a cargo of fine linen and purple and is also arrayed in fine linen and purple:

    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

    4016. periballo from 4012 and 906;
    to throw all around, i.e. invest (with a palisade or with clothing):--array, cast about, clothe(-d me), put on.

    Revelation 18:
    11 And the Merchants of the land are lamenting<2799> and mourning<3996> over Her, that their cargo<1117> no one is buying anymore.
    12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl and fine linen and purple, and silk, and scarlet...................
    15 The Merchants of these, those being rich from Her, from afar<3113> shall be standing, because of the fear of Her torment<929>, weeping<2799> and mourning<3996>, 16 and saying, Woe! Woe! the great City, that was having been arrayed<4016> fine linen and purple and scarlet and have been gilded in gold and precious stone and pearls.
    That to one hour was desolated<2049> the so much riches.
    ============================
    One thing that led me to do a more in depth study on those particular passages was because of my deep study on the covenantle parable/story of the Rich Man and Lazarus[poor beggar] where fine linen and purple are also mentioned. [Abraham and Moses are also mentioned]

    Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

    1737. endidusko a prolonged form of 1746;
    to invest (with a garment):--clothe in, wear.

    Luke 16:19

    A certain Man was rich and clothed<1737> in purple and fine linen making-merry down to a-day, shiningly<2988> [Matt 22:11]

    We begin by scrutinizing the description Yeshua gives us of the rich man. First, he tells us that this man was clothed in purple and fine linen. This type of clothing would not have been out of the ordinary for one of considerable wealth during this time period. However, this attire also has symbolic meaning. The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary says: "The wearing of purple was associated particularly with royalty . . ." (p. 863, "Purple"). In addition, the New Bible Dictionary tells us: "The use of linen in OT times was prescribed for priests (Ex. 28:39). The coat, turban and girdle must be of fine linen." (p. 702, "Linen").

    So we see that the garments worn by this rich man were symbolic of royalty and the priesthood. With that in mind, let's see what God told Moses just before giving the Israelites the Law on Mount Sinai:
    The clothing of the rich man identifies him symbolically with the people of Israel, chosen by God to be His special people. They were called to be a witness to the nations surrounding them, confirming the blessings available to those who would obey God and keep His laws. Unfortunately, they frequently did not live up to the high calling given to them by God. Eventually He sent them into captivity for their refusal to honor their part of the covenant ratified at Mount Sinai. At the time of Yeshua, only the House of Judah continued to have a covenant relationship with God. The rich man in this parable represents the religious Jews of Yeshua's day, exemplified by their teachers, the Pharisees and scribes.

    Verse 19 also tells us that the rich man "fared sumptuously every day." Figuratively, this represents the magnificent spiritual feast available only to the Jews, who were the sole remaining part of God's called people, Israel. In the 1st century CE, they were the only people on earth who had the true religion. Indeed, Paul recounts the glorious station of the House of Judah in Romans 9:
    ==========================================
    Purple and fine linen occur together in only 3 verses of the NT

    Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

    Luk 16:19
    “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
    Rev 18:12
    “merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble;
    Rev 18:16
    “and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!
    ============================================
    Discuss
     
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  2. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Hello LLOJ.

    Bearing in mind that I am of the literalist persuasion when the literal meaning is called for, I believe that Babylon in Revelation is meant to be a real city called Babylon.

    With that said, I believe that the city of Babylon also symbolically represents world commercialism at the time of the Great Tribulation -- in other words, dual prophesy.

    I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the near future someone carries on with the rebuilding of Babylon that Saddam Hussein started before his takedown.

    The city of Babylon is mentioned 286 times in Scripture. In every case the author intends the reader to take the meaning of the literal city. In Peter's day there was even a church at Babylon.

    To those who say that Babylon is an uninhabited desert wasteland impossible to be the commercial hub in Revelation I say that it took only about three decades for Dubai to rise from a sparsely inhabited desert wasteland to the world's most prestigious, luxurious and expensive city. With modern technology, engineering and incentives Babylon could be rebuilt in a fraction of that time.
     
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  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hello Dave. Why would Jesus have John write "mystery Babylon" if the literal City of Babylon was implied?

    Revelation 17:
    4 And the Woman was having been arrayed with
    purple and scarlet/crimson and gilded to gold, and precious stone, and pearls,
    having a golden Cup in Her hand, replete of abominations and uncleanness<169> of Her whoredom,
    5 and upon Her forehead was a name written:
    ‘Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of the Whores, and the Abominations of the earth.’
    6 And I saw the Woman being drunk out of the blood of the Saints, and out of the blood of the Witnesses of Jesus, and I marvel seeing Her, a great marvel
    ===========================
    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
    5. upon her forehead was a name written] Probably not branded on the flesh, but tied on as a label, as Roman harlots actually did Wear their names.

    Mystery] Interpreters compare “the mystery of lawlessness” in 2 Thessalonians 2:7. The use of the word in Revelation 1:20 may illustrate its meaning here: it indicates that “Babylon the Great” is to be understood in a mystical sense.

    of harlots] Rather, of the harlots. She is the chief of these, and the cause of the rest being what they are. Therefore, though the fornications of Babylon are to be understood spiritually, yet her guilt includes the actual licentiousness of the Rome of Nero and Domitian, and in a wider sense “the sin of great cities” generally.
    ============

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible
    And upon her forehead - In a circlet around her forehead. That is, it was made prominent and public, as if written on the forehead in blazing capitals. In Revelation 13:1 it is said that "the name of blasphemy" was written on the "heads" of the beast. The meaning in both places is substantially the same, that it was prominent, and unmistakable. See the notes on that verse. Compare the note on Revelation 14:1.
    Was a name written - A title, or something that would properly indicate her character.

    NKJv)
    Rev 17:5
    And on her forehead a name was written:
    MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    Mystery - It is proper to remark that there is nothing in the original as written by John, so far as now known, that corresponded with what is implied in placing this inscription in capital letters; and the same remark may be made of the "title" or inscription that was placed over the head of the Saviour on the cross, Matthew 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19.
    Our translators have adopted this form, apparently for the sole purpose of denoting that it was an inscription or title. On the meaning of the word "mystery," see the notes on 1 Corinthians 2:7. Compare the notes on 1 Timothy 3:16. Here it seems to be used to denote that there was something hidden, obscure, or enigmatical, under the title adopted; that is, the word "Babylon," and the word "mother," were symbolical. Our translators have printed and pointed the word "mystery" as if it were part of the inscription. It would probably be better to regard it as referring to the inscription, thus: "a name was written - a mysterious name, to wit, Babylon," etc. Or, "a name was written mysteriously." According to this, it would mean, not that there was any wonderful "mystery" about the thing itself, whatever might be true on that point, but that the name was enigmatical or symbolical; or that there was something hidden or concealed under the name. It was not to be literally understood.
     
  4. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    There's no conflict in the Bible between the use of something figuratively and then again literally. Religious Babylon is widely recognized as a metaphor for a world system. On the other hand, Babylon is used hundreds of times in Scripture as the literal city.

    It's like:

    One is a figurative representation of the executive branch of the United States. The other is a literal building where the leader of that branch lives. I'm confident that nobody believes that the White House building can speak and make statements of policy. As in the Bible, it's pretty clear when a figurative sense is to be taken and when it should be taken literally.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Obviously the 'Babylon' in Rev 18, is not ancient Babylon.
    It is a metaphorical name for another city, with an ocean harbor. Rev 18:19

    The fact that it will be destroyed in one hour, by fire; Rev 18:18. ties this disaster to the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal event.
    As for which city it refers to, it would seem to be New York, but Rev 18:24 ties it to Rome.
     
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  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Revelation 18:
    11 And the Merchants of the land are lamenting<2799> and mourning<3996> over Her, that their cargo<1117> no one is buying anymore.
    12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl and fine linen and purple, and silk, and scarlet<2847>...................
    15 The Merchants of these, those being rich from Her, from afar<3113> shall be standing, because of the fear of Her torment<929>, weeping<2799> and mourning<3996>, 16 and saying, Woe! Woe! the great City, that was having been arrayed<4016> fine linen and purple and scarlet<2847> and have been gilded in gold and precious stone and pearls.
    That to one hour was desolated<2049> the so much riches.
    =====================================
    First time purple and fine linen used in the OT:

    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon


    purple, fine linen scarlet(NKJV)
    "fine" AND "linen" AND "purple" AND "scarlet"
    occurs 104 times in 26 verses in the NKJV.

    Scarlet is introduced along with purple and fine linen concerning the Tabernacle in the wilderness in Exodus 25::

    Exodus 25:
    1Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2"Speak to the children of Israel, that they take an offering for me. From everyone whose heart makes him willing you shall take my offering. 3This is the offering which you shall take from them: gold, silver, brass, 4blue, purple, scarlet<8438>, fine linen, goats' hair, 5rams' skins dyed red, sea cow hides, acacia wood, 6oil for the light, spices for the anointing oil and for the sweet incense, 7onyx stones, and stones to be set for the ephod and for the breastplate.
    8Let them make me a sanctuary<4720>, that I may tabernacle<7931> among them. 9According to all that I show you, the pattern of the tabernacle<4908>, and the pattern of all of its furniture, even so you shall make it.
    =====================================
    We will delve further into Exodus 24:1-9 in this thread.
    "Scarlet" is also mentioned with purple and fine linen and used in conjunction with "sins" in the great passage of Isaiah 1:

    8438 towla` to-law' and (feminine) towleoah {to-lay-aw'}; or towla ath {to-lah'-ath}; or tolaiath {to-lah'-ath}; from 3216;
    a maggot (as voracious); specifically (often with ellipsis of 8144) the crimson-grub, but used only (in this connection) of the color from it, and cloths dyed therewith:--crimson, scarlet, worm.
    Occurs 43 times in 43 verses

    Isa 1:18
    “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD,
    “Though your sins are like scarlet<8438>, They shall be as white as snow;
    Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.
    ==========================================
    2847. kokkinos from 2848 (from the kernel-shape of the insect); crimson-colored:--scarlet (colour, coloured).
    G2847 κόκκινος (kokkinos), occurs 6 times in 6 verses

    Used in 6 verses of the NT

    Mat 27:28
    And they stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him.

    Heb 9:19

    For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
    ==================================
    The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

    Rev 17:3
    So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
    Rev 17:4
    The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

    Revelation 18:
    12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl
    and fine linen and purple,and silk, and scarlet, and all thyne wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel of most precious wood and brass and iron and marble 13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.
    16 and saying, Woe! Woe! the great City, that was having been arrayed<4016> fine linen and purple and scarlet<2847> and have been gilded in gold and precious stone and pearls.
    That to one hour was desolated<2049> the so much riches.
    ========================================
    Exodus 25:
    1Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2"Speak to the children of Israel, that they take an offering for me. From everyone whose heart makes him willing you shall take my offering. 3This is the offering which you shall take from them: gold, silver, brass, 4blue, purple, scarlet<8438>, fine linen, goats' hair, 5rams' skins dyed red, sea cow hides, acacia wood, 6oil for the light, spices for the anointing oil and for the sweet incense, 7onyx stones, and stones to be set for the ephod and for the breastplate.
    ============================
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    What about a corrupt religious system[1st century Jewish rulers/priesthood] bedding down with a non religious political system[1st century Rome]

    Matthew 21:43
    Therefore I am saying to ye, that the Kingdom of the God shall be being taken away from Ye[1st century Jewish religious rulers], and it shall be being given to a Nation[Christians in Christ] doing the Fruits of it.

    John 11:48
    "If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away<142> of Us, and the Place and the Nation."

    REVELATION 9:6 'MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM"

    Eze 34:2
    “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD to the shepherds: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
    Nah 3:1
    Woe to the bloody city!
    It is all full of lies and robbery. Its victim never departs.
    Hos 6:9
    As bands of robbers lie in wait for a man,
    So the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem;
    Surely they commit lewdness.

    Matthew 21:13 and he saith to them, 'It hath been written, My House a House of prayer shall be called, but ye did make it a den of robbers.'

    Mat 23:13
    “But woe to ye, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for ye neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

    Jde 1:11
    Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

    Revelation 6:6
    And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denari and three choinex of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

    Revelation 9:6
    And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
    and they shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

    Rev 9:12
    One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.
    Rev 11:14
    The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
    Rev 12:12
    “Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them!
    Woe to the inhabitants of the land and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
    "..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
    ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ;


     
  8. grafted branch

    grafted branch New Member

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    Hi LLoJ,

    I thought you had a thread on the bottomless pit; if you do can you provide a link to it? I’m going to post my thoughts here because they do involve Revelation 18.

    2 Peter 2:4 for if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

    Revelation 18:2 and he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great if fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    The angels that sinned and are in hell are also caged in Babylon. If the bottomless pit and hell are the same then either Babylon is fallen into the pit or the beings in the bottomless pit are loosed (Revelation 9:1-3) into Babylon which becomes there cage or prison. The angles that sinned were reserved unto judgment, this seems to agree with Revelation 18:8 for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her (Babylon).

    What I’m trying to look at is if hell <5020> and the bottomless pit <12> can be the same place.
     
  9. Jen35

    Jen35 Member

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    Merchants? Seems like Babylon is some shopaholic shopping at those fine Gucci and American eagles stores! LoL jk
     
  10. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hell g b. Very interesting post.

    You have a good memory. Here is the link to my "abyss" thread:

    What about the Abyss in Revelation?
    Jul 31, 2018


    Here are all the verses in Revelation that mentions the "abyss". [2 other places mention the abyss].
    What kind of chronological order should these verses be put in and what period of time elapses between events.

    For example, in Revelation 11 during the 2 witnesses preaching the Gospel, the beast hasn't yet come out of the abyss so I would think this should be first in order?
    Just trying to figure this out. Any thoughts on this?


    Revelation 11

    7 ‘And whenever they should be finishing their testimony,
    the beast that is ascending out o
    f the Abyss shall be doing battle with them, and shall be overcoming them, and shall be killing them,
    8 and their dead bodies lay upon the broad-place of the great City (that is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where also our/their Lord was crucified,)

    Still hasn't ascended up out of the Abyss

    Revelation 17:8
    The beast that thou didst see: it was, and is not and is being about to be ascending out of the Abyss, and to go away to perdition/destruction,
    and wonder shall those dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world,
    beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

    Now the Abyss is opened up:

    Revelation 9:
    1 And the fifth messenger did sound, and I saw a Star out of the heaven having fallen to the land,
    and there was given to it the key of the well/pit of the Abyss,
    2 and he did open the well/pit of the Abyss, and there came up smoke out of the well/pit as smoke of a great furnace,
    and darkened was the sun and the air, from the smoke of the well/pit.
    11 and they have over them a King — the messenger of the Abyss
    a name [is] to him in Hebrew, Abaddon,
    and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon/destroyer.

    Now we come to Revelation 20. There are 3 separate events.
    He is fist bound with a chain.
    He is then cast into the Abyss and sealed up.
    The he is released for a "little time"

    Revelation 20
    1 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the Abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
    2 and he laid hold on the Dragon, the old serpent, who is a Devil and Satan, and did bind Him a thousand years,
    3 and he cast him to the Abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him,
    that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished;
    and after these, it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.
    ==========================================
    I also have these threads up concerning the "gehenna/lake of fire"

    Smoke of them and Her ascending forever - Revelation

    Smoke of them and Her ascending forever - Revelation

    Some other links you and or other may be interested

    Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

    Matthew 23:
    15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! That ye are going about the sea and the dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves
    33
    33 "Serpents! brood of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the gehenna <1067>


    Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?





     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  11. grafted branch

    grafted branch New Member

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    So my thoughts on the 2 witnesses are that they could represent the law and the prophets. In Matthew 11:13-14 all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. John the Baptist has the spirit and power of Elias in Luke 1:17. This could equate him with representing the 2 witnesses.

    In Revelation 11:1-2 the measurement of the temple doesn’t include the Gentiles because they are the court which is without the temple. Currently the Gentiles are part of the temple as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:16. This causes the 2 witnesses to be prior to the cross.

    I see John the Baptists as representing the 2 witnesses, which are the 144,000, which I think are the believers prior to cross. I also think Revelation 20:4-5 is showing the souls that were beheaded as the 144,000. Messiah was cut off as described in Daniel 9:26 and John the Baptists was also beheaded. The first resurrection would then be the 144,000 coming out of the graves in Matthew 27:52-53.

    The 2 witnesses prophesy for 1260 days clothed in sackcloth. John the Baptists was clothed with camel’s hair in Mark 1:6 which can be considered sackcloth.

    Revelation 11:8-10 shows the 2 witnesses dead bodies in the street, the people don’t allow their bodies to be put in graves for 3 ½ days, and they celebrate and send gifts to one another because the 2 prophets tormented them. This could be very similar to what happens to John the Baptists. After John the Baptists was beheaded his body could have been in the street for several days, in Mark 6:29 his disciples put his body in the tomb only after they heard of it. The celebration could be Herod’s birthday party in Mark 6:21-25, and the torment could have been John the Baptists comments about their marriage in Mark 6:18-19.

    When the 2 witnesses stand on their feet and ascend up to heaven this could be what is described in Matthew 27:52-53 and Revelation 14:1-5 where the 144,000 are on mount Sion with The Lamb. This also could be what’s in view in Ephesians 4:8 when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.

    Now for the problems with this view; Revelation 11:7 states it is the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit that makes war with them and overcomes them. If this beasts is Satan then in Revelation 20:7-9 after he is loosed he deceives and gathers the nations and compasses the camp of the saints, the fire that comes down from heaven must have devoured the camp of the saints and not Satan and the nations; because in Revelation 11:12 the enemies of the 2 witnesses beheld them ascending up to heaven, which means the enemies weren’t devoured. Also in Revelation 11:15 the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and he shall reign for ever and ever which implies the kingdoms of this world aren’t devoured by fire yet. This is a reasonable solution but would require the 1000 year reign to have already happened, I haven’t done any work on whether that is plausible or not.


    If the fire devours Satan and the nations in Revelation 20:9 then the beasts that ascended out of the bottomless pit in Revelation 11:7 wasn’t Satan but could possibly be the locust in Revelation 9:1-3. I think when the locust are commanded in Revelation 9:4 not to hurt the grass, trees, or any green thing and only those who don’t have the seal of God; it can be associated with Mark 5:9 when Jesus asked what is thy name and he answered, My name is Legion: for we are many. In Luke 8:29 it states Jesus had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man, which is similar to the locust being commanded not to hurt. So the locust may represent Legion which is addressed in both singular and plural form. Legion could possibly be the beast in Revelation 11:7; Revelation 13 does describe 2 separate beasts.


    The other problem with this view is in Revelation 11:9 the 2 witnesses bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days. In Revelation 11:11 they stand on their feet after 3 ½ days. The best explanation I have for this is that they are 2 separate 3 ½ day periods, with the 2nd 3 ½ day period being the 3 days Jesus was in the tomb. Matthew 27:53 says they came out of the graves after his resurrection, which would account for the extra ½ day. If the 3 ½ days are actual days from the time the 2 witnesses are killed until they stand on their feet then I don’t have an answer for that.

    I’m always looking at various possibilities, I’m not confident enough to say for certain John the Baptists and the 2 witnesses are the same but there certainly are some similarities.

    As for the events of the bottomless pit I would put it being opened and the locust coming out first which could also be the beast coming out to overcome the 2 witnesses. Because Legion besought Jesus not to suffer them to go into the deep, and Jesus allowed them to go into the swine, I think the bottomless pit is empty at this time. I think Satan is then bound in the bottomless pit and will be released in the future.

    1 Peter 5:8 states your adversary the devil walketh about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Since we have no evidence of Legion being put into the bottomless pit, if the devils <1140> in Luke 8:30 and the devil <1228> in 1Peter 5:8 can be the same, then it is Legion that is currently walking about. The locust in Revelation 9:5 are given to torment for 5 months but it doesn’t mention what happens to them after the 5 month period. It also could be that the 5 months have some other non-literal meaning.

    Finally I would just say these are some thoughts I have on this which I am still working on and I am not prepared to necessary defend them nor am I dogmatic about them but just sharing them.
     
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  12. grafted branch

    grafted branch New Member

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    One other point I think I should have mentioned is in Revelation 11:19 when the temple of God was opened in heaven the ark of his testament is seen. If this represents the law and it is one of the 2 witnesses along with the prophets or 144,000 as I previously proposed, then this would give additional support for identifying the 2 witnesses which ascended up to heaven in Revelation 11:12.
     
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  13. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Here is a recent article about Babylon, and how it is being named a UNESCO World Heritage site.

    Iraq celebrates naming Babylon a UNESCO World Heritage site

    I'm fairly confident that as a future city Babylon is not down and out yet. Still plenty of time to be literally featured in Revelation.
     
  14. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rev 18:14-17
    (14) And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
    (15) The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
    (16) And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
    (17) For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

    This great city is not Jerusalem in the Middle East. Nor Rome or the Vatican. The mystery is that she is is the church with sinful/lawless man ruling within her without MANY professed Christians realizing it. That's what the cryptic language illustrates. The Greek word translated mystery in Revelation 17 is [musterion] from [myein] meaning "to close or shut," and by extension something that is a secret. The mystery is something that is dumbfounding, mystifying or that perplexes. It means here that the imagery of this woman is an enigma that eludes the understanding of the people. For example, consider the context of John being amazed or perplexed by what he is seeing, and the response to him:

    Revelation 17:7
    • "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns."
    He's asking John, why are you amazed or in befuddled, I will tell you what this cryptic woman symbolizes. The word translated marvel is [thaumazo] and means to be surprised/amazed or to wonder, as though you are perplexed by what you see. Note the angel's question is why is John in amazement or marveling at this Woman. Then he proceeds to explain that he would for all intents and purposes, solve the riddle for him. He would reveal to John the secret or mystery of this cryptic imagery. In other words, what was once a mystery, unexplained or unknown to John, this Messenger of God would now reveal to him. And in the following verses, God proceeds to reveal that this woman is spiritually Babylon, the unfaithful representation of the bride of Christ, who has gone after other gods (become a harlot) and is fallen. He also reveals the Beast that carries her is the dominion of Satan, and that the ten horns are the fullness of power wherein he "rules" as king for a short period of time (1 hour) appointed by God since Satan must be loosed a short period.

    This woman Babylon is all decked out with purple and scarlet as Royalty and as the Tabernacle of God (Exodus 26:1) was, and with this beautiful cup of Gold, whose outward appearance hides the filth inside it. Babylon's confusion is this mystery or unseen truth that will only be revealed to God's servants, like John. Those with the Spirit of God, revealed by the messenger of God to discern both who she is and her true nature. And discern it not by the outward appearance of the Church (as so many looks at) but by what is going on inside her. By her changing laws, doctrines, collusion, deceit, unfaithfulness, compromise, and toleration. In a word, it is "confusion" or Babylon! God's servants "SEE" this abomination not by the cup that appears to be of great value, but by seeing the abominations within it.

    Matthew 24:15-16
    • "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
    • Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"
    Why do you think God adds here that whoever reads this, let him understand it! Well, because it is a mystery, a spiritual enigma that is not easy to understand illustrating the unfaithful Church (abomination in the holy place) in cryptic language. Even saying God's servants are to flee Judea to the Mountains. Not a literal place in Jordan, but a symbolism of where God resides (Psalms 36:6; Psalms 125:2). What or where is the Holy Place for Christians on this side of the Cross? You have professing Christians claiming this is all about a city in the Middle East, while others claiming it was about 70AD and the Romans, others claiming it is about a buildinig upon seven hills in Rome, others claiming it is about a future rebuilding of a physical Temple, and so on and so forth. But God wants "His people" to read and understand that the truth of this mystery is spiritually discerned. No man knows what God is talking about, nor can he. The mystery has to be revealed by God's word ONLY through the Spirit. It gets redundant, but is worth repeating:

    1st Corinthians 2:10-14
    • "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    • For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    • Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    • Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    • But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
    That's why God highlights and emphasizes in Matthew 24 when speaking cryptically about the Church, "whoso readeth, let him understand." Because the Holy Place where this abomination stands is a mystery that remains hidden to some people. They simply cannot or refuse to believe that God would do this to His own Church, His own people, His own Holy Place, His own Holy Temple. It makes no sense to them because they are reading the Bible, but are not really listening to it because they prefer to listen to the false prophets who claim to know who Babylon the Great is.

    The golden cup of the New Testament in her hand illustrates her will. In Scripture, the hand is symbolic of the will. The Cup is the offering. Its outward appearance is as Gold, which is valuable and precious, but the Messenger reveals to God's people that the cup is full of abominations and the filthiness of her spiritual fornication.

    As for why she is called Babylon, it is twofold. Because she holds the people spiritually Captive as Babylon did Israel, and because she professes Christ while under rule of Satan and thus is in babel or Confusion. In other words, confusion because she is trying to have it both ways in offering testament of the cup of Christ, while serving in the dominion of the Beast. But those are two diverse tables where God's people cannot sit.

    1st Corinthians 10:21
    • "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."
    It is Babel or Confusion. I've had arguments with Christians here who have vehemently defended the untenable position that they would remain in their Church even if the man of sin ruled there. Because (in their own reasoning) God wants them to continue to fight there and regain control of the church from the enemies. That is FOOLISHNESS! But sad to say most Christians are worshiping the Church, and not Christ himself. They do not see the difference and they cannot see what is the mystery, which is the hidden filthiness inside the golden cup. They cannot even see what the abominations is for what it is in their church. For example, tolerate of homosexualities, women in position, feel good gospel, divorce, and remarriage, prosperity gospel, etc. We are not to be partakers with her in (Revelation 18:4), but are to depart out of such an abominable place. When you see abomination stand in the Holy place, flee to the mountains. It's God's command for us, not a suggestion! So "FEW" people understand God giving her a title written, Babylon because she is such a mystery or secret to many, many professed Christians!
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Very interesting post TS.
    Revelation, as with much of the Bible, should be spiritually discerned.
    John is "in the spirit" in much of Revelation while seeing the visions, as was Ezekiel.
    Is the City of Jerusalem today much different today than it was back before it's divine destruction of it and the Temple as shown in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation?

    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

    Ezekiel 8:3

    He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
    to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy. [Revelation 17:3]


    Revelation 17:3
    and he carried me away to a wilderness in the Spirit, and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of evil-speaking, having seven heads and ten horns, [Ezekiel 8:3]

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
    "..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
    ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


    Mat 23:37
    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
    Luk 13:34
    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

    Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt
    Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt
    =============================================================
    Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

    SODOM AND EGYPT

    “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of that great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified” (Rev. 11:8).

    In our verse now being considered, “the great city,” “Sodom,” and “Egypt” are equated with “the place where our Lord was crucified.” Our Lord was crucified by religion in the city of religion, which at the time was the Jerusalem to which He came and which rejected Him and cast Him out. It was an apostate church which crucified the Son of God, and we must therefore search the mind of the Spirit and find the solution of these mysteries not in the physical and geographical sphere, but in the realm of the spirit where religious men wage war against the true testimony and purpose of God. Therefore we conclude that the names and titles given to this “great city” are not literal but spiritual, describing that one great city which is in perpetual opposition to that other city, the CITY OF GOD, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, whose citizens are one and all spiritual and heavenly men! Cain, who built the world’s first city, was a carnal-minded man who drenched its walls in his brother’s blood (Gen. 4:17). .....................
    Israel in her apostate condition in the days of the prophets came to be described in these hated terms, “Sodom and Egypt.” Isaiah writes to the rulers of Jerusalem, “Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear to the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah(Isa. 1:10). Of Jerusalem, he inquires, “How is the faithful city become an harlot…?” (Isa. 1:21). Again, in the same chapter, “Except the Lord of hosts had left us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah” (Isa. 1:9). Therefore this world church system of man is here being portrayed as the “great city” which no longer is called God’s city, but which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” It is not Sodom, nor is it Egypt, but in John’s vision it is “in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt.” Sodom is the picture of the carnal life, of worldly unnaturalness, of sensual living, that is, of a sense-centered, man-focused, and need-oriented religious program!

    Egypt is the picture of spiritual bondage and oppression where men serve God under the demanding taskmasters of religious systems who seek to control their lives, monopolize their time and talents, and fleece them of their money. Understood as a symbol, not a name, the Hebrew for Egypt means “the twice-narrow place.” It is a place of constraints and claustrophobia, a passage so constricted that a man or woman can only walk forward, from a given past to an unavoidable future, without being able to turn. “From the narrow place I cried out, Lord,” says Psalm 118, using another form of the word, “In the wide place the Lord answered me!” Egypt is a condition of the spirit. When the Lord’s people are enabled to discern, see, and understand the great and horrible bondage of religion over their lives, they then see their Egypt!
    ==========================================
    Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

    COME HITHER — I WILL SHOW THEE!

    The apostle John was one of the three mighty ones who walked with the Lord in the days of His flesh; he was with Him in the Mount, he lay in His bosom and, above all others, has received the distinctive title as “that disciple whom the Lord loved.” It was fitting that the man who had leaned upon the breast of God’s Son and heard the inmost beating of His heart should become the depository of His most intimate thought in respect to the course of the church in this age. ..............

    At this juncture the seven bowls of plagues have all been poured out by the seven messengers in chapter sixteen — but the end is not yet — for now with wondering eyes John stood transfixed as there came to him one of the seven messengers by whom the bowls of God’s passion had been poured out and spoke with John, saying, “COME HITHER; I will show unto thee the judgment of the GREAT WHORE that sitteth upon many waters (Rev. 17:1). What John is now shown is the final result of the pouring out of the seven bowls of God’s passion! As John beheld, however, and pondered, the scene abruptly changed and he saw an even greater wonder as the same angel came to him again, and said, “COME HITHER; I will show unto thee THE BRIDE, the Lamb’s wife” (Rev. 21:9).

    These words take on new depth of meaning when we understand that in the book of Revelation the word “come” always signifies an invitation to revelation; the whore and the bride are two women; the invitation goes forth to come and see by the spirit how they are related and what they mean; and I do not hesitate to tell you that it requires A REVELATION FROM GOD TO SEE EITHER! Of the harlot it is written, “So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy” (Rev. 17:3). Of the bride it is written, “And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God” (Rev. 21:10). Of the harlot it was said, “And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” (Rev. 17:4-5). In contrast of which it was said of the bride, “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints” (Rev. 19:8). The bride is described as, “…the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious” (Rev. 21:10-11).

    Though there is a great gulf between the abominations of the religious harlot and the glory of the exquisite bride of the Lamb, there is a connection between the two which is divinely orchestrated. This angel, this messenger, one of the seven, who in chapter seventeen conducts John on a guided tour of that great city, Mystery Babylon, later guides him on a tour of the holy city, New Jerusalem. This reveals the important truth that the seven messengers — the full and complete revelation of God’s purpose — are the instruments both of the destruction of Babylon and the perfecting of the bride of Christ! Then follows the wonderful truth pertaining to the true nature and character of both Mystery Babylon and the Holy City Jerusalem — IT TAKES A REVELATION TO SEE EITHER! “Come hither — and I will show thee…the great whore.” “Come hither — and I will show thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” It is the voice of the same messenger revealing to our hearts two diverse realities. It is the invitation to revelation!.........

    Finally, she is that great city which is called Babylon, the city of confusion, filthiness, shame, and the denial of divine order. As to Babylon, John adds, “When I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman…the seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. The waters are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues…and the woman which thou sawest is that great city (a corporate people) which reigneth over the kings of the earth” (Rev. 17:7,8,15,19).

    These prophecies present two broadly contrasted WOMEN, identified with two broadly contrasted CITIES, one reality being in each case, doubly represented, as a WOMAN, and as a CITY. The harlot and Babylon are one; the bride and the heavenly Jerusalem are one.............
    One would certainly think that God’s people would respond to the invitation to revelation whereby the Spirit says, “COME HITHER, and I will show you,” and that they would look with anointed eyes and readily perceive the difference between the virgin and the harlot, but sadly such is not the case. Would God that all men could now see that this hidden mystery of the bride of Christ has nothing in common with that tradition-ridden system, that gaudy harlot, which all men everywhere believe to be THE CHURCH.

    Of all the contrasts in this book of weird opposites the most remarkable one is that of the two women and the two cities............................................
    The one is clothed in fine linen, clean and white, and in another place is portrayed as clothed with the dazzling brilliance of the sun, and crowned with a coronet of stars, that is, robed in divine righteousness as her state of being, and resplendent with heavenly glory and power; the other is attired in scarlet and gold, in jewels and pearls, gorgeous indeed but with earthly splendor only, who, being increased with this world’s goods and having need of nothing has made herself drunk with the blood of the saints and thrust Christ Himself outside her doors.

    The one is represented as a chaste virgin, as was Mary the mother of Jesus, espoused to Christ. And both are mothers; the one is the mother of the manchild caught up to God and His throne. The other is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, that is, the corruption of the flesh. She has the rewards of whoredom; while the other feels the pangs of delivery. The place of the one is in the heavens of God’s Spirit, and there she travails; the seat of the other is in a wilderness of earth, and there she is drunken. The woman in heaven is watched by the great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns. The woman of earth is supported and carried about by the scarlet colored wild beast having seven heads and ten horns. The first woman is hated by the powers on earth; the second is loved, flattered, and caressed by them. The one goes in with the Lamb to the marriage supper, amid the glad hallelujahs of celestial realms; the other is stripped, insulted, torn, destroyed, and burned by her illicit lovers...................

    Some suppose that the bride of Christ is fleshly Israel, the many nations of Abraham’s posterity. Under the old covenant Israel was indeed made the wife of Yahweh. That, however, is an entirely different order than the new covenant bride of the Lamb.
    Nothing can be clearer than the words of the apostle Paul quoted above — Christ is the Head and Husband of the church, and the church is the spotless bride of the Lamb!
    ========================
     
  16. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Everything Herod's 1st century Temple needed to perform it's services........

    John 2:
    14 and He found in the temple those selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money-changers sitting,
    15 and having made a whip of small cords, He put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen; and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew,
    [Nahum 3:2/Reve 18:11-13]

    Eze 27:
    21

    “Arabia and all the princes of Kedar were your regular merchants. They traded with you in lambs, rams, and goats.
    22
    “The merchants of Sheba and Raamah were your merchants. They traded for your wares the choicest spices, all kinds of precious stones, and gold.
    23
    “Haran, Canneh, Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Assyria, and Chilmad were your merchants.
    24
    These were your merchants in choice items—in purple clothes, in embroidered garments, in chests of multicolored apparel, in sturdy woven cords, which were in your marketplace.

    Nah 3:16
    You have multiplied your merchants more than the stars of heaven.
    The locust plunders and flies away.
    ==============================
    The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

    Revelation 18
    10 From afar<3113> having stood because of the fear of the tormenting<929> of Her saying
    "Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City!
    That to one hour came the judging<2920> of Thee.

    11 And the Merchants<1713> of the land are lamenting<2799> and mourning<3996> over Her,
    that their cargo<1117> no one is buying anymore.
    12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl
    and fine linen and purple, [Luke 16:19/Revelation 18:16]
    and silk, and scarlet, and all thyne wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel of most precious wood and brass and iron and marble 13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The entire city itself is metaphoric because there is no one city that has been responsible for...

    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    The city is a metaphor for the kingdom of Satan and his angels, which Babylon is fallen, is fallen is when Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9 as God begins dismantling that kingdom.
     
  18. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What Jerusalem is she in the vision that Ezekiel saw? A physical city or a city above?

    Gal 4:25-26
    (25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.



    The woman, which actually a whore in context, represents the unfaithful New Testament congregation.



    Not going to read this preterism's 70AD theory nonsense.

    This Jerusalem represented an old testament corporate congregation that Christ prophesied judgment against for her unfaithfulness and murdering toward His Old Testament prophets.

    Like the Old Testament, Jerusalem, spiritually, as a congregation always had two groups of people in her holy city.

    Rev 11:1-2
    (1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
    (2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    The first group of the city is Eternal True believers - the Elect.
    The second group of the city is External corporate believers - the professed believers.

    They are together collectively as a holy city. Notice that God judges HIS UNFAITHFUL PEOPLE.

    The great city is the church because she is NOW a representative of God's Kingdom on earth on this side of the Cross. Remember that the kingdom representative was taken from Old Testament congregation of Israel for her rejection of Messiah the Prince, and gave it to the New Testament Congregation. That is why Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, and Book of Revelation now focus on New Testament Congregation, and not the physical city of Jerusalem. Not even 70AD. Anyway, right prior to Second Coming, per Revelation 11:2 above, the great city has become apostasy and being trampled underfoot because of abominations (Sodom) and bondage (Egypt) within the city. In other words, the congregations of God, all over the world, has become more and more like the world, where false christs and false prophets have introduced satanic doctrines and teaching that have caused the city to become, SPIRITUALLY, like Sodom and Egypt. The dead bodies of the Two Witnesses represent the silence of true testimony of the Elect in the church where nobody likes to hear anymore because the Truth torments them.
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Ezekiel 8:6 He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.

    You would have us believe the house of Israel was committing great abominations in the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all???????
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    And if one does take it to mean a literal city, one ends up with total nonsense such as you pointed out. Especially this part----and of all that were slain upon the earth.
     
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