Rev'd. Gini Gerbasi's Facebook post

[charsan]

.

 

[Philip_B]

I am suggesting that and it had nothing to do with the President walking to the Church. It was not bad at all.

OK. I can accept that you have a very different perspective, and he is after all your President, not mine.

I hope that what you see as OK, does not become OK in my country, though I know that there are some who would see that as a good thing.

 

[PloverWing]

Tear gas and stun grenades? Honestly, I'm shocked and deeply shaken that anybody would think this is the way to treat clergy ministering on their own church's steps.

Is this what we've come to? How do we, as a church, respond to what's just happened to our own people?

I'm still processing what the church incident means to me. It feels like it crossed a line that hadn't been crossed before -- even though it's one more step in the direction the president has been walking for a long time.

I wouldn't say I'm shocked by the incident. The event that set the protests off was an instance of excessive use of violent force by a police officer, so the use of violent force by the police in front of the church was ... consistent.

I'm grateful for the rapid responses from the Bishop of DC and the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church
(

, Statement from Presiding Bishop Michael B. Curry on President Donald Trump’s use of a church building and the Holy Bible). It was important to say quickly and loudly that the church behind the president in the photo did not endorse the actions or the police.

I don't actually know what statement the president thought he was making. He didn't make a speech during the photo shoot, and I don't follow his Twitter feed closely. In theory, he could have been saying that this book, the Bible, talks about freedom and justice for the oppressed, and that he is calling the nation to work together for racial justice. But I didn't hear him say that, and that's not what his actions communicated. He seemed to be trying to make some kind of religious statement, but I don't know what it was. It came across as a claim that he had the endorsement of the Bible and the church. But he can often be clumsy in front of the cameras (and I acknowledge my liberal bias), so it's possible he intended something else.

 

[charsan]

Do you all care that rioters, looters who were nothing more than criminals and thugs set the church on fire. Your all to concerned with what never happened to be concerned about the real crime. Your guys angst is absolutely and completely misplaced instead of worrying about something that never happened you all should be upset that one of your own churches almost brunt down to the ground.

 

[PloverWing]

Do you all care that rioters, looters who were nothing more than criminals and thugs set the church on fire.

Here are some statements from the church's rector, bishop, and presiding bishop about the fire and the protests. The text below is quoted from the Episcopal News Service (Fire causes minor damage to St. John’s, the ‘church of presidents’ in Washington, during night of riots - Episcopal News Service):


[Rev. Rob Fisher, rector of St. John's] and [the Rt. Rev. Mariann Edgar] Budde [bishop of Washington, DC] expressed gratitude that no one was harmed by the fire and stressed that the systemic racism and police brutality that ignited the recent unrest are far bigger concerns.

“There’s understandably attention on us,” Fisher told ENS, “but I want to point the attention back to where it really should be, which is the purpose of the protests, and the people who did what they did to the church do not represent the majority, who are here for reasons that we totally support.”

“We will rebuild the church, while keeping our focus on the deeper wounds of this country that we must heal,” Budde wrote on Facebook.

“I am saddened to learn about the damage to St. John’s Church,” Presiding Bishop Michael Curry said in a statement. “But thankfully, no one was hurt. This must strengthen our resolve to live by the way of a kind of love that seeks the good and the well-being of others of our society. And for ourselves. This way of love is the way.”

 

[Philip_B]

Do you all care that rioters, looters who were nothing more than criminals and thugs set the church on fire. Your all to concerned with what never happened to be concerned about the real crime. Your guys angst is absolutely and completely misplaced instead of worrying about something that never happened you all should be upset that one of your own churches almost brunt down to the ground.

Well yes I do care, and the destruction of property and looting are unacceptable. None the less I think you have missed the point. As I see it the actions of an unlawful minority do not invalidate the legitimate concerns that are being raised in the protests being conducted by many thousands across the USA.

The litmus for this latest round of protest was the death of George Floyd who died who died in circumstances that suggested that the police officers involved had failed to accord him the dignity we all have, being made in the image and after the likeness of God. That does not mean that all police are bad, nor does it mean that these police are bad, however in the lack of other evidence it would seem they had exceeded their mandate to serve and protect.

The real underlying causes of the wave of protest may be more difficult to determine, however there would seem to be some places where we might look. That would include ensuring that the systems in place ensure that all people are accorded dignity, health and safety, that justice prevails (by which I mean impartial application of the rule of law together with equitable distribution and access to the resources of the nation including education, health, housing, employment and opportunity).

I notice that your avatar now proclaims that Blue Lives Matter, and I would agree, whilst I would continue to affirm that Black Lives Matter also, and indeed All Life Matters and is a gift from God.

The people being forced back the other day were not looters and rioters - and certainly at the time they were not looting and rioting, but rather US citizens (in the main I presume) exercising the democratic right to free speech - affirmed by the UN Universal Declaration or Human Rights.

Heavy Handed law enforcement seems to have set this off, and somehow I don't think that it will be the long term solution.

 

[charsan]

The litmus for this latest round of protest was the death of George Floyd who died who died in circumstances that suggested that the police officers involved had failed to accord him the dignity we all have, being made in the image and after the likeness of God. That does not mean that all police are bad, nor does it mean that these police are bad, however in the lack of other evidence it would seem they had exceeded their mandate to serve and protect.

Most of those don't even know who Floyd was, it may started with good intentions but once the looting, rioting, and killing the message has been lost. There have been much bad that has happened in the "protest" but not much concern about it from the "protesters"
'

The people being forced back the other day were not looters and rioters - and certainly at the time they were not looting and rioting, but rather US citizens (in the main I presume) exercising the democratic right to free speech - affirmed by the UN Universal Declaration or Human Rights.

Yes the were and the police have said it several times that they were not being respectful and getting in a bad state. They were bad actors and when told to move back they refused

 

[Philip_B]

Yes the were and the police have said it several times that they were not being respectful and getting in a bad state. They were bad actors and when told to move back they refused

Do we live in a free society?

 

[charsan]

Do we live in a free society?

Doesn't negate the law and obedience to the authorities

 

[Paidiske]

I'm still processing what the church incident means to me. It feels like it crossed a line that hadn't been crossed before

To me, it feels personal in a way that American politics never has before.

Characterising clergy on the steps of their church, ministering to those in the crowd, as "not respectful" and needing to be dealt with by violent force, leaves me feeling as if there's nothing left to say.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Doesn't negate the law and obedience to the authorities

Civil disobedience goes back a long way in our country, indeed it's a part of our very formation. We chucked tea into Boston Harbor, shouted, "No taxation without representation," and fought the law and obedience to England to form our own country. In my own lifetime, the Civil Rights movement changed segregation and was a small step forward (but obviously not as much of a step as I thought as judged by recent events). If people wouldn't have sat-in at lunch counters and taken it to the streets, we'd probably still have white and "colored" drinking fountains. Then came Viet Nam when the antiwar protests finally helped turn .gov away from that war saving who knows how many kids' lives.

I won't rule out the possibility that something good can come out of "I can't breathe" protests. At least, I hope it does.

 

[charsan]

Doesn't matter when they are told to move back and start throwing things it is not peaceful. All the liberals see is how the police are bad but they don't give no thought when the crowd starts acting like monsters.

 

[Philip_B]

Doesn't matter when they are told to move back and start throwing things it is not peaceful. All the liberals see is how the police are bad but they don't give no thought when the crowd starts acting like monsters.

I don't think anyone in this thread has been taking that approach, but perhaps asking the question about where individual freedoms including the freedom of assembly and the freedom of opinion end, and how much authority does a police force exercise and when does that become an unreasonable exercise of authority. Nobody doubts that both these lines have been crossed in recent days.

Of course if this happened in Australia the police would have been out issuing breach of social distancing fines at $1500 a pop!

 

[charsan]

I don't think anyone in this thread has been taking that approach, but perhaps asking the question about where individual freedoms including the freedom of assembly and the freedom of opinion end, and how much authority does a police force exercise and when does that become an unreasonable exercise of authority. Nobody doubts that both these lines have been crossed in recent days.

Of course if this happened in Australia the police would have been out issuing breach of social distancing fines at $1500 a pop!

It ends when the police ask the "protestors" to move back and in return they throw frozen water bottles and rocks. The police weren't even that hard on people but liberals make a big deal out it because of absolute hatred of President Trump. I am out there is no reasoning with any of you because you all think people like me are awful for being conservative and supporting the best President since President Reagan

 

[Julian of Norwich]

I don't want to cause more division (there is and has been enough of that in this country) and Charsan, I often like what you have to say on this board. In this one instance, I must respectfully disagree. It does seem to me that many (including police superiors and their superiors - I don't want to name names or lack in charity) have been and are "acting like monsters" in all too many cases.

 

[Paidiske]

I am out there is no reasoning with any of you because you all think people like me are awful for being conservative and supporting the best President since President Reagan

For me it has nothing to do with any of this; being conservative or supporting President Trump or whatever.

This was police brutality against clergy (and laity) acting faithfully to further the mission of the Church, on church property. I don't care who does it, or why, I have a massive problem with that!

 

[Philip_B]

The police weren't even that hard on people but liberals make a big deal out it because of absolute hatred of President Trump. I am out there is no reasoning with any of you because you all think people like me are awful for being conservative and supporting the best President since President Reagan

No I don't think you are awful. I am not sure it is about hatred of the President either. The 45 President does from time to time slip back into a reality TV show mode where he does and says things seeming to promote the ratings. The 'Dominate' word he has used repeatedly in this issue is a clear example of language which is intended to inflame. It gets rating up in TV shows, and quite possibly it might do the same when it comes to the polls in November.

Political discourse in the early part of the 21st century has resulted in a level of derision and division where people are quickly anathematised and seems incapable of finding no common ground. Far more so than in the 20th Century. We need more reason and less rhetoric, more poetry and less politics.

 

[Philip_B]

Thought I would share this letter of support from one Australian Congregation to TEC in challenging times.