Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[Jan001]

1. The temple had to be still standing for John to be able to go and measure it.

This temple is a FUTURE temple. I know this is a strange word for you, but you better get it into your vocabulary, for a new temple will soon be built. You seem to struggle with the concept of FUTURE. By the way, John is told to measure the temple just before the midpoint of a FUTURE 70th week of Daniel. We KNOW this is future, because none of the trumpets which will come before John is told to means have come. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that there has NEVER been a time with 1/3 of earth's population is killed.

The 70th week of Daniel began with the birth of Jesus Christ in 3/2 B.C.

Halfway through this 70th week, about 30 A.D., was Jesus' death. The anointed One was cut off/crucified. Daniel 9:25-27

The 70th week ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. [7 weeks equals 70 years] There is no pause in the 70th week so that hundreds or thousands of years can pass by in the middle of the 70th week.

We've never had a pause during any of our weeks and neither did Daniel prophesy a pause in his 70th week.

Why would a third physical temple need to be built? We Christians each are a temple of the Holy Spirit/God right now. 1 Corinthians 3:16

The church/household of God is the temple of God on earth right now. Ephesians 2:19-22

God will be our temple in heaven. Revelation 21:22

Jesus said that the prophecies of Daniel would be fulfilled in this generation. He was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple and the destruction of the unbelieving Jews. Jesus said the present generation living in 30 A.D. [this generation] would see the destruction of Jerusalem and this generation did indeed see it in 67-70 A.D. 40 years equals one generation.

4. Jesus claims that all these prophecies will happen to this generation.

THIS WHICH? Of course the generation that sees all these things happening. Sorry, that generation never saw all the signs. OUR generation will.

Perhaps you have misinterpreted the signs. Perhaps this is all past history.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Jan001]

jan001,

1. The battle of Armageddon is in the 7th vial (Revelation 16:16-17-19). Armageddon is in the region of Israel. Christ will come down on the Mount of Olives and he will smite them with the brightness of his coming (Zechariah 14:4-9 and 2 Thessalonians 2:8). Revelation 19:11-15 shows the Lord coming out of heaven with his saints and angels to the battle of Armageddon where the Beast and the false prophet are killed (Revelation 19:20).

Revelation 16-19 are past history. So is Zechariah 14. They concerned the 70th week of Daniel from 3/2 A.D. to 70 A.D. and they spiritually portrayed the destruction of Jerusalem, its inhabitants, and its temple; and the rejoicing in heaven after it was finished. "Coming" means "judgment." 2 Thessalonians 2:8 is prophesying Jesus' second/final coming to earth.

2. Revelation 20:7-9 is about encompasses Jerusalem but fire comes down from God out of Heaven.
You can make this out like it is the same as Armageddon but this is when the 1000 years are up that Satan is loosed. When is Satan loosed out of the pit? He is not in there today because he still deceives the nations. He will still be working through the Antichrist and the nations in the tribulation for the time of the gentiles will not have ended until the battle of Armageddon.

A thousand years is symbolic for the time period between Jesus' first coming and His second/final coming.

3. The devil in Revelation 20:10 is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are. This is 1000 years after the beast and false prophet have been in there. This is because Satan is bound in the pit till the 1000 years should be fulfilled; and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The beast and false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire in 67-70 A.D. The devil/Satan will not be thrown there until Jesus' second coming.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Jan001]

No it isn't. It means to die by having your head cut off.

This is symbolic language about spiritual things.

We will agree to disagree.

The mark of the beast is described by John as happening in the tribulation when the Antichrist makes everyone take it. Staying faithful to God and His commandments until death is just that, a Christian dying in good standing. Amill redefines everything to change the meaning and thus we have this new doctrine which scripture, unadulterated, knows nothing about.

This is all past history. The tribulation John is speaking about in Revelation is also spoken about by Paul.

Revelation 1:9
I John, your brother, who share with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. rsv

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv

Acts 14:21-23
When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Ico′nium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. 23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting, they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed. rsv

Rev 20 says there is a thousand years separating the two resurrections.

This is symbolic language for the time period between Jesus' first appearing/coming to earth 2000 years ago and His second/final coming/appearing at the end of time.

The verse does not say all are resurrected at the same time just no resurrections happens until the second coming. Scripture states the dead in Christ rise first so the dead not in Christ cannot and will not rise with the dead in Christ. I assume you have no explanation about that? No Amil has been able to accept the dead in Christ rise first and claim all the dead rise at that same time.

Find and put together all the Scriptures concerning the second coming and you will get a more complete picture of the details pertaining to Jesus' second coming. All these things will happen very closely together. The dead in Christ rise first (the spirits of the just receive their resurrected bodies before the people who are still alive on earth receive their immortal bodies.) Scripture does not say that the dead-who-are-not-in-Christ will not rise before the still-alive people on earth.

There was only one resurrection of Jesus Christ, not three, even though Matthew, Mark, and Luke all wrote about a resurrection of Jesus Christ. They all had some details alike and some details different. Add all three together and you will have a more accurate understanding of the events of the one (not three) resurrection of Jesus Christ.

John 5:26-29
For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv
​

Here we see that the dead in Christ and the dead not in Christ both hear His voice at the same exact time and they both resurrect at the same exact time.

All the dead, both good and evil, resurrect with new immortal bodies before the still-alive people on earth receive their immortal bodies.

I doubt that there will be much of a time elapse between the resurrection of all the dead and the putting on of immortal bodies by the still alive people on earth. They will receive their new bodies while they rise to meet Jesus and His saints in the air.

​

 

[Jan001]

Rev shows all the trumpets that are left and there are only 7. I don't know if any have sounded but the 6th is the trib and the 7th is the second coming and neither of those events have happened.

Revelation 19 was fulfilled in the past. All that is left to fulfill is Revelation 20 and 21. Symbolic language is easily misunderstood. The great tribulation written about in Revelation is over. It happened to the first century Christians including all the apostles. All the apostles were martyred during this tribulation of Nero Caesar (666) except for John.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Jan001]

So? The burning bush wasn't hell either.

The damned/condemned humans are punished in the lake of fire/fire of hell forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. nkjv​

The first death for man is his physical death. The second death for man is his loss of eternal life which is also called his second death.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—nkjv​

Wrong. There are no worms at all.

Hell is more than just worms feeding on a person's immortal flesh. Matthew 13:49-50

No one survives the lake of fire. The wicked do not have eternal life, only the saved do. The second death is complete dearth not life so they can live forever suffering.

Just as there are both good people and evil people, there are both eternal life for the good people and eternal condemnation for the evil people.

Mark 3:29
but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—
​

http://www.divinerevelations.info/documents/carmelo_brenes_christian_that_wound_up_in_hell/index.htm

 

[ewq1938]

The damned/condemned humans are punished in the lake of fire/fire of hell forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. nkjv​

The first death for man is his physical death. The second death for man is his loss of eternal life which is also called his second death.

no,. It is not the loss of eternal life because they never had eternal life to begin with. The second death is to die and be dead forever. You teach the opposite, that the damned will live forever in the lake of fire.

Hell is more than just worms feeding on a person's immortal flesh.

There is no such thing.

Just as there are both good people and evil people, there are both eternal life for the good people and eternal condemnation for the evil people.

That doesn't mean they don't die the second death. Eternal condemnation simply means they are condemned to their fate (death) forever.

 

[ewq1938]

Scripture nowhere teaches this.
Like you said, "[people can't] redefine everything to change the meaning and thus we have this new doctrine which scripture, unadulterated, knows nothing about."

Again, scripture, unadulterated, knows NOTHING about antichrist of 1 and 2 John being the same entity as the False Prophet or Beast of Revelation.

You don't see they are the same but it is obvious that they are. Care to explain why John speaks of an Antichrist and suddenly there is no Antichrist in the endtimes account of Rev? If I wrote of the commander and chief in one letter, then in another letter I wrote about the President, are you going to make the same claim they must be two people because I didn't use the same name in each letter?

Show me the Scriptural teaching that they are the same person.

It takes scriptural understanding and knowledge to know this. John doesn't give much details about the AC so we have to identify him in other writings such as these:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


That is the Antichrist.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Here he is again. Both speaking of this same person within the tribulation before the return of Christ.

 

[iamlamad]

no,. It is not the loss of eternal life because they never had eternal life to begin with. The second death is to die and be dead forever. You teach the opposite, that the damned will live forever in the lake of fire.

There is no such thing.

That doesn't mean they don't die the second death. Eternal condemnation simply means they are condemned to their fate (death) forever.

We can't just cherry pick the verses we like and ignore others. Humans were created to live forever. Or, pehaps I should say "exist" forever. The human spirit will exist as long as God exists, and He is not going away. Therefore, NO MATTER WHERE, all humans ever created will exist somewhere in a conscious state: either forever in heaven or forever in the lake of fire. That is the intent of scripture.

Just as the rich man was in torment in hell, and was conscious of thirst, pain, heat, etc, so those in the lake of fire will be conscious.

 

[ewq1938]

From Daniel chapter 12:

Daniel 12New King James Version (NKJV)


12 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.(NKJV)

Everlasting is quite clear in this passage as it is in hundreds of other passages.

Having contempt for someone does not require the evil person to be alive. They wake to shame, and others will have contempt for them forever.

 

[iamlamad]

You don't see they are the same but it is obvious that they are. Care to explain why John speaks of an Antichrist and suddenly there is no Antichrist in the endtimes account of Rev? If I wrote of the commander and chief in one letter, then in another letter I wrote about the President, are you going to make the same claim they must be two people because I didn't use the same name in each letter?




It takes scriptural understanding and knowledge to know this. John doesn't give much details about the AC so we have to identify him in other writings such as these:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


That is the Antichrist.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Here he is again. Both speaking of this same person within the tribulation before the return of Christ.

I also think he is the very same human that Paul called the "man of sin." When he enters the temple and declares he is the god of the bible, he will become possessed by the devil out of the bottomless pit and will become the BEAST of Revelation 13 and the Antichrist to come.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 19 was fulfilled in the past.

The great tribulation written about in Revelation is over. It happened to the first century Christians including all the apostles.

None of the above is true. Rev 19 was not fulfilled, the trib never began. History and the lack of these major events prove your theories wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

The damned/condemned humans are punished in the lake of fire/fire of hell forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. nkjv​

The first death for man is his physical death. The second death for man is his loss of eternal life which is also called his second death.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—nkjv​

Hell is more than just worms feeding on a person's immortal flesh. Matthew 13:49-50



Just as there are both good people and evil people, there are both eternal life for the good people and eternal condemnation for the evil people.

Mark 3:29
but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—
​

http://www.divinerevelations.info/documents/carmelo_brenes_christian_that_wound_up_in_hell/index.htm

I agree with you here, "eternal life" or "eternal death:" BOTH are in a conscious state and are aware of their surroundings.

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 19 was fulfilled in the past. All that is left to fulfill is Revelation 20 and 21. Symbolic language is easily misunderstood. The great tribulation written about in Revelation is over. It happened to the first century Christians including all the apostles. All the apostles were martyred during this tribulation of Nero Caesar (666) except for John.

We will agree to disagree.

You are on a public forum agreeing to disagree. Before you write on a public forum you should be sure what you teach is truth.

James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Surely you should now, NO preterist has EVER been able to point to history and tell us when ANY of the trumpet judgments have come, or the vials. The reason is simple: they are FUTURE events. If I were you, I could do a month long meditation on this word. By the way, MUCH of Revelation is NOT symbolic.

"If the plain sense makes sense, don't look for any other sense, or you will end up with nonsense."

Nonsense runs rampant on these threads.

By the way, as bad as the first century was, it was WORSE for a Jew living in Germany or Poland in say 1943. And Jesus said when days of GT come, they will be worse than any in the world ever. Just to give you a hint, it will be like being a Jew in Berlin in 1943 and being caught: your chances of surviving are ZERO. Only in the GT coming, it will be like that around the world. This time Satan will control the entire world and have authority over it all.

 

[iamlamad]

The 70th week of Daniel began with the birth of Jesus Christ in 3/2 B.C.

Halfway through this 70th week, about 30 A.D., was Jesus' death. The anointed One was cut off/crucified. Daniel 9:25-27

The 70th week ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. [7 weeks equals 70 years] There is no pause in the 70th week so that hundreds or thousands of years can pass by in the middle of the 70th week.

We've never had a pause during any of our weeks and neither did Daniel prophesy a pause in his 70th week.

Why would a third physical temple need to be built? We Christians each are a temple of the Holy Spirit/God right now. 1 Corinthians 3:16

The church/household of God is the temple of God on earth right now. Ephesians 2:19-22

God will be our temple in heaven. Revelation 21:22

Jesus said that the prophecies of Daniel would be fulfilled in this generation. He was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple and the destruction of the unbelieving Jews. Jesus said the present generation living in 30 A.D. [this generation] would see the destruction of Jerusalem and this generation did indeed see it in 67-70 A.D. 40 years equals one generation.



Perhaps you have misinterpreted the signs. Perhaps this is all past history.

We will agree to disagree.

We will certainly disagree, for almost everything you write is nonsense. You answer everything with human reasoning. May I suggest you camp out on Acts 1 & 2 until you get what they got?

 

[parousia70]

You don't see they are the same but it is obvious that they are. Care to explain why John speaks of an Antichrist and suddenly there is no Antichrist in the endtimes account of Rev? If I wrote of the commander and chief in one letter, then in another letter I wrote about the President, are you going to make the same claim they must be two people because I didn't use the same name in each letter?

No, because I have a document called the US constitution that explicitly teaches that both labels apply to the office of president.

In contrast you have no such Biblical document that explicitly applies both antichrist and beast to the same person. You have invented the connection out of thin air, and have no scripture to back it up. Scripture indeed knows nothing about it.

It takes scriptural understanding and knowledge to know this. John doesn't give much details about the AC

On the contrary, St John Gives us EVERYTHING we need to be able to correctly identify antichrtist in 1 & 2 John. Everything.

so we have to identify him in other writings such as these:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Nope. Nothing about antichrist there.

That is the Antichrist.

No it isn't. You have shown ZERO scriptural teaching to connect Pauls Man of Sin to antichtist of 1 & 2 John.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Here he is again. Both speaking of this same person within the tribulation before the return of Christ.

And again, Nothing, nada, ZERO teaching that this person is properly, biblically identified as antichrist.

I find it telling that in your attempt to identify antichrist for us, you have used exactly ZERO of the scriptures that teach explicitly about what antichrist is.

Why is that?

And what other doctrines do you attempt teach about by refusing to use the explicit scriptural teaching on?

Do you attempt to teach salvation by grace through faith by refusing to cite any scriptures that explicitly teach about salvation by grace through faith?

Do you attempt to teach about Baptism by refusing cite any explicit scriptural teaching on Baptism?

Why then, would you attempt to teach about antichrist by refusing to cite any explicit scriptural teaching on antichrist?

 

[parousia70]

I also think he is the very same human that Paul called the "man of sin."

I know you THINK that.

Scripture however, does not TEACH that.

 

[iamlamad]

I know you THINK that.

Scripture however, does not TEACH that.

By all means, ENLIGHTEN us! We are all ears.

 

[iamlamad]

No, because I have a document called the US constitution that explicitly teaches that both labels apply to the office of president.

In contrast you have no such Biblical document that explicitly applies both antichrist and beast to the same person. You have invented the connection out of thin air, and have no scripture to back it up. Scripture indeed knows nothing about it.

On the contrary, St John Gives us EVERYTHING we need to be able to correctly identify antichrtist in 1 & 2 John. Everything.



Nope. Nothing about antichrist there.



No it isn't. You have shown ZERO scriptural teaching to connect Pauls Man of Sin to antichtist of 1 & 2 John.




And again, Nothing, nada, ZERO teaching that this person is properly, biblically identified as antichrist.

I find it telling that in your attempt to identify antichrist for us, you have used exactly ZERO of the scriptures that teach explicitly about what antichrist is.

Why is that?

And what other doctrines do you attempt teach about by refusing to use the explicit scriptural teaching on?

Do you attempt to teach salvation by grace through faith by refusing to cite any scriptures that explicitly teach about salvation by grace through faith?

Do you attempt to teach about Baptism by refusing cite any explicit scriptural teaching on Baptism?

Why then, would you attempt to teach about antichrist by refusing to cite any explicit scriptural teaching on antichrist?

One thing we know for sure: the Antichrist will DENY the FATHER and SON. Which religion today does that so emphatically?

 

[redleghunter]

Having contempt for someone does not require the evil person to be alive. They wake to shame, and others will have contempt for them forever.

Contempt was not the focus of what I highlighted. The eternal part is.

 

[ewq1938]

Contempt was not the focus of what I highlighted. The eternal part is.

The contempt is forever as I already said. Nothing here supports eternal life in hell fire.