Rev-18 and that great city Babylon

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Brain Damage

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This story has always intrigued me and I have never been able to get a true fix on it.

Like the buying and selling of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

And all this stuff is being shipped and sold into one place , one city , but for what purpose , what are they then going to do with it once they have it ? Will they hord it , use it , re sell it or what ?

So what do you think is going on here?
 

LittleLambofJesus

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This story has always intrigued me and I have never been able to get a true fix on it.

Like the buying and selling of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

And all this stuff is being shipped and sold into one place , one city , but for what purpose , what are they then going to do with it once they have it ? Will they hord it , use it , re sell it or what ?

So what do you think is going on here?
If I am not mistaken, a lot of those had to do with the OC Temple and may be the "elements" Peter is talking about in 2 Peter 3. I just started a folder on this to see how many of these are mentioned in both the OT and NT. :wave:

Galatian 4:25 The yet Hagar, Sinai Mount is in the Arabia, is together-elemental/su-stoicei <4960> (5719) yet to the now Jurusalem being in servitude with the offsprings of Her.

2 Peter 3:12 Toward seeming/expecting and hastening the Parousia of the, of the God, Day, thru which heavens being fired/purou-menoi <4448> (5746) shall be being dissolved and elements/stoiceia <4747> burning being melted.

Reve 18:11 And the merchants of the land are lamenting and are mourning over her, because no one is not still buying their merchandise/cargo 12 merchandise/cargoes of gold, and of silver, and of precious stone, and of pearl, and of fine linen, and of purple, and of silk, and of scarlet, and every citron wood, and every ivory vessel, and every precious vessel out of wood, and of brass, and of iron, and of marble, 13 and cinnamon, and ginger, and incenses, and attar, and frankincense, and wine/oinon <3631>, and olive-oil/elaion <1637>, and fine-flour, and grain/siton <4621>, and cattle/beasts, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I decided to look at where every one of the words in Reve 18:12 and 13 are used, but I may just make a thread on the Christian Scriptures boards after I complete tranlating the words.

This word for "cargo" is used only once and that in Acts 21:3 and interesting they stop at Tyre to unload. [I am assuming it is to unload but not really sure of the greek word used]

Reve 18:11 And the merchants of the land are lamenting and are mourning over her, because no one is not further buying their cargo/gomon <1117> 12 cargo/gomon <1117>

Acts 21:3 Up-appearing yet the Cyprus/kupron <2954> and leaving her left we were sailing into Syria/surian <4947>, and and came down into Tyre/turon <5184>, for therely the ship was unloading/apofortizomenon <670> (5740) the cargo/gomon <1117>.

2Chronicles 2:14 The son of a woman of the daughters of Dan, and his father was a man of Tyre, skilful to work in gold, and in silver, in brass, in iron, in stone, and in timber, in purple, in blue, and in fine linen, and in crimson; also to grave any manner of graving, and to find out every device which shall be put to him, with thy cunning men, and with the cunning men of my master David thy father.

1Kings 9:11 (Now Hiram the king of Tyre had furnished Solomon with cedar trees and fir trees, and with gold, according to all his desire,) that then king Solomon gave Hiram twenty cities in the land of Galilee.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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This story has always intrigued me and I have never been able to get a true fix on it.

Like the buying and selling of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

And all this stuff is being shipped and sold into one place , one city , but for what purpose , what are they then going to do with it once they have it ? Will they hord it , use it , re sell it or what ?

So what do you think is going on here?

There are scriptures that appear to point to Jerusalem as Mystery Babylon. I'll quote them below. Having said that, I don't think that Rev 17 and 18 are about Jerusalem.

Ezek goes into great detail about how Jerusalem/Israel is a prostitute under the wrath of God for her detestable practices with similar descriptions as Rev 17 and 18.

Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth


compare to:

Mat 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
Mat 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Mat 23:38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.




God used Babylon to destroy and exile Jerusalem/Israel. Then God used someone else to destroy Babylon. God used Rome to destroy and exile Jerusalem/Israel AGAIN. The Roman Empire evolved. There were pope and emperors. Now there's just a pope who claims spiritual authority from God Himself over men. I believe that mystery Babylon of Rev 17/18 is "the land of the North"/the "daughter of Babylon" mentioned in Zech 1 & 2.

Zec 1:18 Then I looked up—and there before me were four horns!
Zec 1:19I asked the angel who was speaking to me, “What are these?”
He answered me, “These are the horns that scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem.”
Zec 1:20 Then the Lord showed me four craftsmen.
Zec 1:21 I asked, “What are these coming to do?”
He answered, “These are the horns that scattered Judah so that no one could raise his head, but the craftsmen have come to terrify them and throw down these horns of the nations who lifted up their horns against the land of Judah to scatter its people.”



God will bring something against what remains of the Roman Empire.

Zec 2:6 “Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north,” declares the Lord, “for I have scattered you to the four winds of heaven,” declares the Lord.
Zec 2:7“Come, O Zion! Escape, you who live in the Daughter of Babylon!”
Zec 2:8 For this is what the Lord Almighty says: “After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you—for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye—
Zec 2:9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me.



compare to:

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;



God is going to use the devil/beast/10 kings to destoy Mystery Babylon.

Rev 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.




Then, God is going to destroy the beast/10 kings.



It's just like when God used Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and when God used Rome to destroy Jerusalem. Now, God is calling His people from the "land of the North" aka the "daughter of Babylon" because He is about to destroy her too. And once Rome/Land of the North/Daughter of Babylon is destroyed by the beast/10 kings, He's going to take out beast/10 kings who destroy her.


So, bottom line....mystery Babylon is not Jerusalem because "Jerusalem/Israel" are the people God is calling out of mystery Babylon before mystery babylon is destroyed.


I don't feel like I understand it completely, and it seems that symbolic Babylon has changed from actual Babylon to Jerusalem to the Roman Empire....so take it or leave it.

In a way...I can see how or why God would apply the name Babylon to both Jerusalem and the Roman Empire....false gods, idolatry, perversion, ...and we could even spiritualize it and apply the term "mystery Babylon" to all false religion.


As far as the description of wealth goes in Rev 18, that's also in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 27 & 28, referring to Tyre. Tyre is another one...where the symbolism applies. So, it seems we really have to dig around in Scripture to understand the full meaning of Rev 17 & 18.


(Sorry if I rambled...I was thinking and speculating as I wrote)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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compare to:

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

&#8220;Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
Hi Jen. You do realize JESUS did not come to the Jews/Israelites to build another House of physical Stone and Woods but a Spiritual house.

Have you ever studied on the Covenantle parable of the "rich-man/lazarus". I have a thread on "House of Living Stones" as shown in 1 Peter 2:5 and as we all know, Peter was an Apostle to the Judeans/Circumcision, so I would guess he is now telling his Bretheren of the "flesh" that no longer will YHWH ever accept Mosaic type Sacrifices, but SPIRITUAL sacrifices. Thoughts? :wave:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7282391
A House Of Living Stones

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones/liqwn <3037>, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us and Ye a great chasm hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

1 Peter 2:5 And ye-selves as Stones/liqoi <3037>, living, are being built a House, spiritual Priesthood, holy, to offer up spiritual sacrifices well-acceptable to-the God thru Jesus Christ.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Hi Jen. You do realize JESUS did not come to the Jews/Israelites to build another House of physical Stone and Woods but a Spiritual house.

Well, this question was slightly off topic for this thread but I'll answer in this way...

You do realize that God abandoned Israel until the full number of Gentiles comes in, right?


Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:




You do realize that Israel/Jerusalem will be the center of the world during the millennial reign of Christ, right?

Mic 4:2Many nations will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.




You do realize that even the disciples understood that the Kingdom on earth would be given to Israel, right?

Act 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”




You do realize that Israel is abandoned until Christ consecrates people for Himself, and then Israel will be restored, right?

Hsa 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.




Mic 5:3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

Mic 5:4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the Lord,
in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
Mic 5:5 And he will be their peace.
 
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Big Mouth Nana

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This story has always intrigued me and I have never been able to get a true fix on it.

Like the buying and selling of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

And all this stuff is being shipped and sold into one place , one city , but for what purpose , what are they then going to do with it once they have it ? Will they hord it , use it , re sell it or what ?

So what do you think is going on here?
Well BD, you know where I have stood for a long time on this, and I haven't changed my stance one iota in 5 years ;) Babylon is the USA. We import and export more globally then any other country on this planet. It isn't a "hording" situation, but foreign and domestic commerce in action. We have made other nations rich by having our manufacturing jobs shipped over seas, and we are importing their "cheap" goods as manufacturing here in the USA anymore is almost nil. Look at your labels inside your clothing. You rarely ever see "made in the USA" anymore. This nations economy is going to be drained dry and taken out in one hour as Rev so states and commerce will shift to the EU. New York is already using Euro dollars in a lot of their stores....not good. These Presidential candidates are saying that they will bring jobs back to America..isn't going to happen!! We are in that time frame for the Antichrist, and I say that very seriously!!
Take a look at what India/America alone did in their trade with each other in 2007. This is done by the census bureau. This doesn't even take in account trade with other countries.
http://import-export.suite101.com/article.cfm/india_imports_exports_2007
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You do realize that God abandoned Israel until the full number of Gentiles comes in, right?


Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
Yeah. Isn't it amazing how "42 months" can turn into 2000yrs. ^_^

Luke 21:24 "And they shall be falling by mouth of sword, and they shall be being led captive into all the Nations. And Jerusalem shall be being trampled/pathsousin <3961> (5692) by nations until which may be being filled/plhrwqwsin <4137> (5686) times of nations/eqnwn <1484> [Ezekiel 30:1/Daniel 12/Revelation 11:2/ 13:10]

Reve 11:2 and the court, the without of the sanctuary, be thou casting-out! out-side, and no her thou should be measuring, that she was given to the Nations. And the city, the holy, They shall be trampling/pathsousin <3961> (5692) forty two months

Reve 13:10 If any into captivity/aicmalwsian <161> into captivity/aicmalwsian <161> he is going away. If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints [Luke 21:24]
 
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CindyisHis

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I believe Babylon is a type. I believe it represents this world's system, as opposed to the kingdom of God. If you are born of God you in this world but not of it. You either love God or you love money. This is the contrast. Those who love the world and the things of the world are in the Babylonian system, which will be destroyed. Those who love the Father are kept by Him.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I believe Babylon is a type. I believe it represents this world's system, as opposed to the kingdom of God. If you are born of God you in this world but not of it. You either love God or you love money. This is the contrast. Those who love the world and the things of the world are in the Babylonian system, which will be destroyed. Those who love the Father are kept by Him.
:thumbsup: Jesus tried to explain that to the Judeans in John 8 and wonder if they knew to look back at Deut 28:13. :)

Deut 28:13 And YHWH gives thee to head and not to tail, and thou become surely to above and not thou shall become to below. That thou shall listen to instructions of YHWH thy 'Elohiym which I instructing thee the day to observe and to do.

John 8:23 And He said to them, "Ye out of the below are, I out of the above am. Ye out of this, the world, are. I not am out of the world, this.
24 I said then to ye, that ye shall be dying in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.'
36 Answered the Jesus, "the kingdom, the Mine, not is out of the world, this. If out of the world, this, the kingdom, the Mine, the servants to Me contended, that no I may be being given up to the Judeans. Now yet the kingdom, the Mine, not is hence."
 
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Big Mouth Nana

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I believe Babylon is a type. I believe it represents this world's system, as opposed to the kingdom of God. If you are born of God you in this world but not of it. You either love God or you love money. This is the contrast. Those who love the world and the things of the world are in the Babylonian system, which will be destroyed. Those who love the Father are kept by Him.
This might work except for one problem. If it was the worlds system, then the most of the world would be taken out in one hour. Also, the bible states this..Rev 18:9 & 18 ~ And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
18) And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
This is a specific place and a city that Rev states sits on many waters...Rev 17:1. The USA has the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic ocean, the Gulf of Mexico, and many tributaries. Those who believe that it is Jerusalem, Jerusalem doesn't sit on many waters, just the Mediterranean Sea. It's desert.
 
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Benoni

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This might work except for one problem. If it was the worlds system, then the most of the world would be taken out in one hour. Also, the bible states this..Rev 18:9 & 18 ~ And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
18) And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
This is a specific place and a city that Rev states sits on many waters...Rev 17:1. The USA has the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic ocean, the Gulf of Mexico, and many tributaries. Those who believe that it is Jerusalem, Jerusalem doesn't sit on many waters, just the Mediterranean Sea. It's desert.

Revelation is not a literal book, in fact it is the most spiritual book in all of the Bible. This is not a specific place, but a spirtual place.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Revelation is not a literal book, in fact it is the most spiritual book in all of the Bible. This is not a specific place, but a spirtual place.
:thumbsup: I would say Revelation is mainly Covenantle concerning 2 types of Priesthood/Cities. The OC and NC.

Notice what Paul says in Gala 4 and one reason the Muslims despise my bro Paul [concerning Hagar, the mother of Islam] :D

Galatian 4:24 which-any/s is an allegory. For these are the Two Covenants, one indeed from mount Sinai into servitude generating/gennwsa <1080> who-any is Hagar;

Revelation 12:1 And Sign, great was seen in the heaven a Woman having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) the sun and the moon underneath of the feet of her

Reve 17:4 And the Woman was having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) purple and scarlet and having been gilded to gold and stone, precious, and pearls, having drinkcup, golden, in the hand of her being replete/brimming of abominations and the uncleannesses of the prostitution of her
 
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Big Mouth Nana

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Revelation is not a literal book, in fact it is the most spiritual book in all of the Bible. This is not a specific place, but a spirtual place.
Now just how do you arrive at this conclusion? The whole bible is "Spiritual" as it was penned by men through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Revelation is literal and symbolic. Are these men in ships staring off into a spiritual place when they see the smoke of her burning? Is this spiritual place sitting on many waters? Does this spiritual place have these in it...Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues? I DON'T THINK SO!!!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Now just how do you arrive at this conclusion? The whole bible is "Spiritual" as it was penned by men through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Revelation is literal and symbolic. Are these men in ships staring off into a spiritual place when they see the smoke of her burning? Is this spiritual place sitting on many waters? Does this spiritual place have these in it...Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues? I DON'T THINK SO!!!
Greetings BMN? Did ya ever look at Acts 2?
Notice the multitude of Judeans there from every Nation under heaven and they all have different "tongues/languages"
Notice what City they were in : :)

Acts 2:1 And in to the to be together-filled the day of the Pentecost were all likewise upon the same. 2 And became suddenly out of the Heaven a blare, as-even of carrying of blast, forcible and it fills whole the house where they were sitting. 3 And were seen to them as dividing tongues as if of fire and is seated upon one each of them. 4 And they are filled all a spirit, holy-one, and they begin to be speaking to different tounges according as the spirit gave to be uttering to them. 5 There were yet in Jerusalem dwelling Judeans, pious men from every nation of the under the Heaven.
 
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Benoni

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Now just how do you arrive at this conclusion? The whole bible is "Spiritual" as it was penned by men through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Revelation is literal and symbolic. Are these men in ships staring off into a spiritual place when they see the smoke of her burning? Is this spiritual place sitting on many waters? Does this spiritual place have these in it...Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues? I DON'T THINK SO!!!

Show me where it says Revelation is literal besides your preconceived creed?

Yes the whole Bible is very spiritual and symbolic as but most important spiritual; but no where in scripture does it declare it like the Book of Revelation, note the very first verse.

If it the Book of Revelation is literal; line and verse please.

John was in spirit on the Lord ’s Day; He was looking a literal church; but a spiritual church.

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:

John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day; this makes the Revelation a spiritual book; not literal, not carnal, not prophetic. Revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ; it is the most spiritual Book in all the Bible; and I always put Genesis in second place. It is a book full of hidden spiritual symbolisms and for those who have the spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it.




This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible. Where do you find these signs and symbols; all thought the Bible; written yes by the hands of deep spiritual men from many ages.

The Book of Revelation is all symbolic and spiritual.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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John was in spirit on the Lord &#8217;s Day; He was looking a literal church; but a spiritual church.

Revelations 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:
:thumbsup: Actually the greek reads "in swiftness". Whether that means shortly from then or that it will be over swiftly, not really sure.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7167075&page=3

Revelation 1:1 An-un-covering Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to His bond-servants, which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness. And He signifies commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bondservants of Him, John

genesqai <1096> (5635) en <1722> tacei <5034>

Romans 16:20 The yet God of the Peace shall be crushing the Satan/satanan <4567> under the feet of ye in swiftness. The grace of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with ye.

podaV <4228> umwn <5216> en <1722> tacei <5034>

Interesting that the same form of the word used for "become" in Reve 1 is also used in Luke 21

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the Loosing/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 16/19]
 
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Interesting. The same 2 verses of Reve 1:1, 3 are repeated in Reve 22:6, 10. Never noticed that before. Interesting.

Revelation 1:1 An-un-covering of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to His bond-servants, which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>. And He signifies commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bondservants of Him, John.

Revelation 22:6 And said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it/her having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), for the Time Is-Near/egguV <1451>.

Revelation 22:10 And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this. That the Time Is-near/egguV <1451>
 
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