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Rev 12 is FUTURE and the child is the church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by HisdaughterJen, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 12


    1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
     
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  2. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    Did you catch that? The "brethren" overcame the accuser by the BLOOD of the Lamb!

    Christ died and rose again. The "brethren" FOLLOWED Christ's death and resurrection, therefore the accuser has not yet been cast down.

    We stand before God, righteous by faith in the blood of the Lamb. The accuser of the "brethren" is still accusing and the "brethren" plead the blood of Christ over their sins.

    If Satan were cast down when Jesus ascended, then he would not be able to accuse the brethren before God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Greetings. I have my own view of that "accuser" and perhaps I will make a thread on the "Unorthodox" board, since my view of it is not "mainstream" :wave:

    Reve 12:10 And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven "Now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast the Accuser/kathgoroV <2725> of the brothers of us, the accusing/kathgorwn <2723> (5723) them in sight of the God of us day and night. [John 5:45?]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2009
  4. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    Furthermore, that "loud voice in heaven" is the church because that loud voice refers to "OUR brethren".

    They are IN HEAVEN praising God that He has begun to reign, telling those who dwell in heaven to rejoice while, at the same time, warning those who live on earth to beware because the devil has been cast down for a "short time".

    Rev 13 later shows the mouth of the beast bashing those "who dwell in heaven", the church.
     
  5. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    In comparing scripture with scripture, Christ is the one who rules with a rod of iron (which is descriptive of the man-child) but he gives that rulership to the church in Rev 2 & 3. The man-child is definitely the church.

    Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


    Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
     
  6. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    What has been on my mind about this passage is the fact that the devil will be preparing to devour the "man-child" (church) when the time is right for our birth (the redemption of our bodies).

    I can only imagine that the devil intends to thwart the catching away of the church that is a sign to Israel that God loves us and chose us but God will not let that happen.

    In looking around, I see a world-wide goal of killing millions with the swine flu, oddly enough, during the Feast days. I also see Christians on an extremist list as potential enemies of the state. (American)
     
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    That is an interesting perspective and the way that word is used in other places of the NT, it could be plausible. I will study on it. :wave:

    #726 used 17 times in the NT. 7 times in Gospels, Matthew [3] and John [4]. 1 time in Revelation.

    http://www.scripture4all.org/

    Reve 12:5 And she brought forth a son, *strong-male*, who is being about to be shepherding all the nations in rod iron.
    And is snatched-away/hrpasqh <726> (5681) the offspring/teknon <5043> of her toward the God and toward the throne of Him.

    Strong's Number G726 matches the Greek &#7937;&#961;&#960;&#8049;&#950;&#969; (harpaz&#333;), which occurs 17 times in 13 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

    726. harpazo har-pad'-zo from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
     
  8. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    Hi Jen
    We are the Brethren Jen...anyone who believes in Christ.

    We stand before God, righteous by faith in the blood of the Lamb. The accuser of the "brethren" is still accusing and the "brethren" plead the blood of Christ over their sins.

    correct. The dead in Christ are in heaven today, listening to Satan's accusations against us (their brethren) here on earth.......and he will continue to accuse us infront of God, until he is cast out and THEN there is silence in heaven for 1/2 an hour....Satan is here in person...Woe, woe, woe to us...

    agreed...

    They are all the dead believers, that will return with Christ at the Rapture, which is post trib...as 1Thes4:13-16 teaches.

    I would not say "begun to reign"...God has always reigned...but your right....no more accuser in heaven, and we are the brethren on earth, their brethren and we better watch out, 'casue Satan is coming to deceive....looking like a lamb and being worshiped


    yeppp...


    Rev 12 also says that Satan will overcome the Saints...called also the Brethren....or believers....all but the elect, for whome the time was shortened, so they would not be deceived by him.





    Satan shall come to earth pretending to be Jesus...looking like Him, being worshiped as Him...fooling the world including the Christians...they are overcome by his lies...


    the brethren in heaven are dead in Christ, the elect frm heaven....the firstfruits that Our Lord brings with Him when He comes, and to whome the elect alive (the Christians that did not get fooled by Satan's false lamb role-the firstfruits on earth) at that time, are gathered to...and changed to be like.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  9. hiscosmicgoldfish

    hiscosmicgoldfish Liberal Anglican

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    I think on this one you might be correct. It does look like evidence that the child is the church. And that satan is yet in heaven, accusing the brethren, and has not as yet been cast down to earth. That Rev 3:21, as Christ is already sitting on a throne in heaven, he must be talking about the church.
    Satan being cast down to earth in the latter days, literally; would also cause the feet of clay mixed with iron, for the final beast-kingdom of Daniel, as perhaps 'all hell will break loose' in those final days, and that will be the antichrist, perhaps. Not all the various wicked contenders throughout history.
     
  10. GaryP

    GaryP Newbie

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    This may sound kind of silly, But I thought the child, was the First born of David and
    Bathsheba, The one God destroyed in his 7th Day. Remember He was the one who was
    to be the King of Israel. I wonder why saint john the divine, uses the word child, when
    he knows what a church is, remember he wrote churches 7 letters, there is the number 7 again. Never did catch the child's name. Well anyway he is snatched into heaven, but which one, The Old or the new
    heaven. I am going to stick with the Old Heaven, I am not sure I like all those Iron Rods in the new and improved one.
     
  11. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    Rev 12 is symbolic. The situation is told twice in that passage.

    I'm not sure if you're joking/serious/or a little touched.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    There are a lot of things told twice in Revelation but in different ways.

    For example, I can view these events as symbolically the same, one view from the land and one from heaven. Pretty fascinating :wave:

    Reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white Throne and Him Who sat on it, from Whose Face the land and the Heaven fled away. And there was found no Place to them.

    Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks "be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One-sitting upon the Throne and from the wrath of the Lambkin
     
  13. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    Those are describing two different moments.
     
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    How do you know?
     
  15. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    Rev 20:11 is described as happening after the millennium, after the devil has been loosed from his abyss, and at the time when death will be destroyed forever.

    Rev 6:16 describes people hiding from the coming wrath of God which is about 1000 years before Rev 20.
     
  16. saint2

    saint2 Regular Member Supporter

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    This woman standing on the moon, clothed with the sun, and crowned with twelve stars is suggestive of the dream which Joseph had (Gen 37:5-10) where the sun, moon, and stars bowed down to him. His father, Jacob, interpreted his dream as meaning that Joseph would someday reign over him and his sons -- the 12 tribes of Israel.


    This prophecy had its near fulfillment when Joseph reigned in Egypt, but the prophecy will have a greater far fulfillment when the gentile church (descendants of Joseph via Ephraim) reigns with Christ.



    Ge 46:20
    And unto Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim,


    Ge 48:17-20
    And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

    And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

    And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
    (gentile church)



    Rev 7:1-8 144,000 Israelites Sealed
    . . . Of the tribe of Juda
    . . . Of the tribe of Reuben
    . . . Of the tribe of Gad
    . . . Of the tribe of Aser
    . . . Of the tribe of Nepthalim
    . . . Of the tribe of Manasseh
    . . . Of the tribe of Simeon
    . . . Of the tribe of Levi
    . . . Of the tribe of Issachar
    . . . Of the tribe of Zabulon
    . . . Of the tribe of Joseph
    . . . Of the tribe of Benjamin


    There are two tribes missing from this lineup, Dan and Ephraim, where Manasseh has replaced Dan.

    Ephraim, the man-child (gentile church), doesn't need to be sealed, because they will be reigning with Christ.

    God bless, Bob..
     
  17. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    So, you agree with me that the man-child is the church? I think that's an interesting way of proving it. Described just after the 144,000 of Israel (in Rev 7) is a "great multitude" (the church) which lines up exactly with what was said of Ephraim and his seed as you quoted from Genesis above.

    Excellent research!

    So, that's now at least THREE Biblical ways to prove that the man-child of Rev 12 is the CHURCH!

    This means that the white robed multitude of Rev 7 is definitely the church (I never doubted) and also proves the timing of the rapture!
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
  18. saint2

    saint2 Regular Member Supporter

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    Hisdaughterjen,

    I agree that the man-child in Revelation 12:5 is the church, the body of Christ.

    imo these church members are Ephraimites for the reasons I gave above in post #16.

    Corroborating this is Jeremiah 31:9b

    "I have become a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."



    That said, I believe the 144,000 in Revelation 7:4-8 are Israelites, from the seed of Jacob.

    While the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1 are first fruit Gentiles, from the seed of Ephraim (Genesis 48:19)



    I believe that the Great Multitude from every nation of Revelation 7:9 are NOT the church, who are but a little flock, but they are converts of the Revelation 7:4-8 144,000 Israelites (Zechariah 8:23)


    Bob..
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rev 12:4  His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 
    Rev 12:5  She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 



    (Psa 2:7  "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 
    Psa 2:8  Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. 
    Psa 2:9  You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' " 


    Rev 12:6  Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. 



    ( The Flight to Egypt (subtitle from e-Sword)

    Mat 2:13  Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him." 
    Mat 2:14  When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 
    Mat 2:15  and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON." )


    .
     
  20. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi BABerean,

    I totally agree with you there, bro. The nation of Israel is represented by the woman & 12 stars. (12 tribes) And of course it is the Lord whom Israel was expecting - `For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given..` (Isa. 9: 6)

    Just a note to others -

    All scripture is about the Lord and His purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations. Read carefully to whom God is speaking and then His word becomes very clear.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
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