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Featured Rev 11- 1st 3.5 years of Final 7 not a time of peace, after all?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Julian King, Dec 15, 2018.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I understand the text. What I am correcting you on - is your statement that the last three trumpets are woes.

    I am pointing out to you that the trumpets, in and of themselves, are not woes - but announce the arrival of those woes.

    Just as trumpet sounding in this video is not the king but announces the entrance of the king.


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  2. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Apollyon kills the Two-witnesses after 1260 days. Apollyon is the Scarlet Colored Beast. Of course they have to obey God or they know God will chain them in the bottomless pit. God protects them for 1260 days and then when their Ministry over they are killed, so unless one has ZERO LOGIC, you have assume God was protecting them else Satan, the Anti-Christ Apollyon or the men of earth would have tried to kill them before they have brought all these plagues down !! That just simple logic brother. The Prince of Persia who I think is Apollyon, resisted Michael for 21 days

    You can't correct me on it because it's a fact, one of these days, here on earth are in Heaven you wil learn that Rev. 12 is not a part of the Chronological Order nor is it a Woe.

    When all three Trumpets Sound the Woes arrive. Satan is cast out at the Midway point thus he chases the Woman (Israel) into the Wilderness for 1260 days.

    The LAST Woe is the 7 Vials which comes just after the 2nd Woe. Until you understand that the Chronological Order goes from Seak, to Trumpet, to Woes in which the last Woe is all 7 Vials you will be in the dark as per the timing.
     
  3. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe you should look into alternative eschatological views before you put much more time into this subject. You have only been subjected to dispensational theology and there are other alternatives to end time scenarios.
    Blessings
     
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  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It says woe to the inhabitiers of the earth right in the text of Revelation 12.

    Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
     
  5. Julian King

    Julian King New Member

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    Hi revealing times.

    On what day in the 7 years do the 2300/1150 days start, and what event marks the start of the 2300 days?
     
  6. Julian King

    Julian King New Member

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    Hi Douggg

    You have sacrifices resuming on Day 220, at the start of the 2300 Days, whereas Daniel 8:11-14 only talk about sacrifices being taken away. So, I think it's sacrifices ceasing that will mark the start of the 2300 Days.

    Also, I think Daniel 11:11 is telling us that sacrifices ceasing will mark the start of the 1290 Days, which suggests that both the 2300 Days and the 1290 Days will start on the same day- Day 220 of the 7 years.

    And if this would have the Desolating Abomination being set up too early in your scenario, then I think Daniel 12:11 allows for it to be set up during, or at the end of, the 1290 Days.

    What do you think?
     
  7. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    But it IS NOT a Woe..............Satan is cast down at about the halfway point...............and you bend all of your Eschatology to fit, when all you have to do is follow the Three Trumpets when they Sound.

    Satan is cast out at the Midway point, the 6th Trumpet blows near the end of Tribulation, followed by the 7th Trumpet. We can't be right until we learn to admit we are wrong on things....WHO CARES anyway, God is the teacher right ?
     
  8. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    I assume it starts somewhere around the Midway point when the Beast takes over. The False Prophets seems to place in Image in the Temple 30 days before the Beast conquers Israel. The point is it is defiled for 1150 days. So whatever day it starts on it will end in 1150 days. It will not start until the Beast takes over or just before the Beast takes over via the False Prophet (Probably a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason).
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Julian, I don't think I understand what you are suggesting, because I don't understand what ends the 1290 days in your suggestion. Put it in this sort of form, so I can understand.

    Day 1 - the confirmation of the covenant.
    Day 220 - the animal sacrifices started again. (2300 days before Jesus returns).
    Day 1185 - the AoD image placed in the temple, the Jews begin to flee.
    Day 1260 - the two witnesses are killed.
    Day 1263.5 - the two witnesses ascend, leaving this world
    Day 2475 - the world sees Jesus before the throne of God. (Day 1185 + 1290 days).
    Day 2520 - Jesus descends to earth and executes judgement on them gathered to make war on him.

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    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    Julian, it is not talking just about the stopping of the daily sacrifice, but also a transgression. The transgression is what makes the temple desolate (another way of saying no praise and worship of the One True God during that time. Until it is cleansed of what makes the temple desolate.)

    So there has to be the resumption of the daily sacrifice since it hasn't been done for 2000 years. Then at some point stopped by the little horn person. And then the little horn person does something that is a transgression, lasting until Jesus returns.

    All of those activities combined will span the 2300 days.

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    There are some choices of what causes the desolation. One is the abomination of desolation, that in Daniel 12:11 will be "setup". That doesn't sound like a human being to me, but an object. So I take the abomination of desolation to be the image the false prophet has made of the person.

    Differently, in 2Thessalonians2:4, the person goes into the temple, sits, making his claim to be God.

    So that is the "transgression" of desolation. But transgression against what? Transgressing the covenant he confirmed for 7 years earlier; which, intrinsic to that covenant is to worship the One True God only.

    In Daniel 9, Daniel was lamenting over his ancestors had "transgressed" the Mt.
    Sinai covenant.

    11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

    The point being is that the transgression of desolation is different from the abomination of desolation.

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    The 1290 day and the 1335 days - are associated with the abomination of desolation, the image made
    The 2300 days - is associated with the transgression of desolation, an act by the person.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Although it says in the text it is a woe?
     
  11. Julian King

    Julian King New Member

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    Ok, so, since Daniel 8:9-14 doesn't speak about sacrifices resuming, but only about them ceasing, I assume that they will resume before the 2300 days start- which means I'm also assuming that the main temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt before the 2300 days start, so that sacrifices can resume in that temple before the 2300 days start.

    And I think it's possible that by referring to evenings and mornings in verse 14, Daniel may be hinting that of the 4 events mentioned in verse 13, it's sacrifices ceasing that will mark the start of the 2300 days on Day 220.

    Which means since I think Daniel 12:11 is telling us that the 1290 Days will start with burnt-offerings ceasing, that I think the 1290 Days will also start on Day 220.

    Which means that I think the 1290 Days end on Day 1510. And I think that the setting up of the Desolating Abomination, mentioned in Daniel 12:11, will be the event to mark the end of the 1290 Days. (I know you have the A of D set up on Day 1185, 75 days before the Beasts 42 months of authority begin, but I see no reason why the events of Revelation 13 are not listed chronologically, which would mean that the image of the beast is made, and hence set up, after the beast's 42 months have begun, and hence after Day 1260.)

    I also think Daniel 12:11-12 read as though the 1335 days will start on the same day as the 1290 days, which means that they too would start on Day 220, and hence finish on Day 1555 when 'those that persevere reach a place where they can be happy'. And since Jesus in Matt 24:15-16 tells 'those in Judea to flee to the mountains when the A of D is set up', I think it's possible that 'those that persevere' in Daniel 12:12, could be those that fled to the mountains when the A of D was set up 45 days earlier on Day 1510.

    And 'the place that makes those that persevere happy' on Day 1555- well, I think it's possible this could be Revelation 12:14's place of nourishment that both you and I think will be available from Day 1260 to Day 2520.

    What do you think?
     
  12. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't say it's one of the Woes.....you try to pigeonhole God's vocabulary where we can't have woe's to the inhabitants of earth without it being a Woe that kicks off via the Three Trumpets. He is cast down at the Midway mark, there will be THREE WOES COMING LATER ON !! GET IT ? But they don't start sounding unto the 5th Trumpet, not at the First Seal which is what Rev. 12 is showing, he chases the Woman (Israel) who needs protection 1260 days. Instead of following these leads you choose a timeline that is not even possible.
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Julian, I highlighted part of your text.

    I think that it is a non fit to have the sacrifices ceasing on Day 220. Because in Daniel 9:27, it is in the midst of the week that the sacrifices are stopped.

    Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    In the middle part of the week (the 7 years):
    The sacrifices stopped.
    The transgression of desolation act (2Thessalonians2:4).
    The abomination of desolation image placed in the temple.
    The two witnesses killed, and brought back to life.
    The war in (the second) heaven and Satan cast down to earth.

    The beginning of the week (the 7 years)

    Follows right after Gog/Magog.
    The prince who shall come confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required my Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.:
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The 7th trumpet is like the 7th seal. It is not at the end of the 7 years.

    The sounding of the 7th trumpet is the signal for Michael and his angels to cast Satan down to earth - in the middle part of the 7 years. The other trumpets judgment come after the 7th trumpet has sounded.
     
  15. Julian King

    Julian King New Member

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    Hi Douggg

    The Hebrew word Chetsiy, which some translations of Daniel 9:27 translate as 'middle' can also be translated as'half', which means that instead of Daniel 9:27 being translated as 'offerings cease in the middle of the week', it can also be translated as 'offerings cease for half (1260 days) of the week', which means under this translation that the offerings can cease at anytime in the first 3.5 years. Which allows me to have them ceasing on Day 220 as the event that will amrk the start of the 2300 Days.

    So, briefly I have placed the Daniel time periods in the 7 years as follows:

    Day 1- beginning of Daniel's 70th week, when the devil/desolator makes a strong covenant with many.

    Day 220- offerings cease marking the beginning of the 2300 Days, the 1290 Days, the 1335 Days, and also the half of the week (1260 days) for which offerings cease in Daniel's 70th Week.

    Day 1480- offerings resume 1260 days after they ceased- if Chetsiy in Daniel 9:27 should be translated as 'half', it would mean that offerings will resume 1260 days after they cease, maybe as an act of worship to the Beast of Revelation 13 (Rev 13 tells us several times that he will be worshipped)

    Day 1510- Desolating abomination set up, marking end of the 1290 Days- those in Judea flee to mountains at this time as advised by Jesus in Matt 24:15-16;

    Day 1555- 1335 Days ends when those that persevere are made happy/blessed- this could represent when those Judeans that fled to the mountains 45 days earlier reach Rev 12's place of nourishment, which I think will be available for the whole of the Final 3.5 Years of the 7. And the reason that they may feel so happy/blessed could be that this could be the time of the 'Mark of the Beast' period (I think Rev 13 reads as though this will period will begin during the Beast's 42 months of authority) when those who do not carry the 'Mark', which I think will include the fleeing Judeans, will be unable to buy and sell, which means that they will need God to provide for them at this time- and I think Rev 12's place of nourishment is indeed telling us that he will provide for the Jewish people (who I think the Woman of Rev 12 symbolises) during this time.

    Day 2520- end of the 2300 Days, when the 'sanctuary is restored to its rightful state'. And the end of Daniel's 70th Week when the Desolator (Beast) meets his end when he is cast into the lake of fire.

    What do you think?
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Julian, first let me say you did a good job on putting your thoughts on the 7 year presentation by Day, citing the beginning of the time period and the end with explanations concerning your rationale. :oldthumbsup:

    It makes it lot easier for others to fathom and discuss your ideas, and for you yourself to reason things out (imo).

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    You have the sacrifices stopped on Day 220 and resumed 1260 days later on Day 1480.

    However, I am not seeing the 1260 days being used that way. The 1260 days would be the exact middle of the 7 years. And in Revelation, the 1260 days passages do not mention any restarting of sacrifices, but to the end of the two witnesses' testimony time (Revelation 11:3) and the Jews being fed the word of God and fleeing to the wilderness in Revelation 12:6.

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    "Day 1510- Desolating abomination set up, marking end of the 1290 Days- those in Judea flee to mountains at this time as advised by Jesus in Matt 24:15-16;"

    Julian, the abomination of desolation setup is what cause the Jews to flee, agreed. But if we look at Revelation 12:6, they have already fled into the wilderness by the 1260 day point. So the Day 1510 would not be a fit of when the abomination of desolation is setup.

    The aod will have to be setup before day 1260. I think on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns.
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    "Day 1555- 1335 Days ends when those that persevere are made happy/blessed- this could represent when those Judeans that fled to the mountains 45 days earlier reach Rev 12's place of nourishment, which I think will be available for the whole of the Final 3.5 Years of the 7. And the reason that they may feel so happy/blessed could be that this could be the time of the 'Mark of the Beast' period"

    Julian, if you were in that situation, would you be happy that you could not dare leave the mountains and go back to your home. Or would you be happy if the 1335 day landed on the day Jesus returns, and He destroys the beast, false prophet, and the armies in you country, - seeking to enslave or kill you ?

    I think the blessing is to them who remain faithful to the day Jesus returns. So I put the 1335th day as being the day Jesus returns.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  17. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    The 7th seal opens the 70th week, while the 7th vial ends it. the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

    The first 6 trumpets sound in the first half of the week, with the 7th marking the midpoint.

    The two witnesses will begin their testimony just 3.5 days before the midpoint, testify for 1260 days, which will take them to 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. Verses 11:4-13 are written as a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology.

    In fact, the earthquake when the two witnesses rise is the very same earthquake at the 7th vial. It is the time all the Old Testament saints rise - on the "last day."

    I suspect the man of sin will be taking out the three (of ten) nations during the first half of the week. John does not tell us when. It will certainly not be a picnic with the trumpet judgments coming. Good job!
     
  18. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I think it is mostly myth. The 2300 days were back in Antiochus' day.
    The 1290 just extends the 1260 of the last half for another 30 days.
    The 1335 extends that 1290 for another 45 days.

    What could happen on the 1290th day? It could be Jesus return when He captures the Beast and False prophet. The 1335th day could be the start of the Millennial reign. We can only guess because John did not tell us.
     
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Don't think of them. Douggg is in error. All five mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time are for the last half of the week. The last half of the week begins at the 7th trumpet that divides the week. Notice that those that flee, 12:6, flee because they have just seen the abomination - the man of sin enter the temple and declare he is God.

    Just read it exactly in the order John wrote. But notice that 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis. 11:1-2 is just before the midpoint, verse 3 is 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    lamad, put your thoughts on a by Day form like Julian did in his post #55. And I did on my post #49.
     
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