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You know, I've got to say this is one of the best responses I've read. Although those who are grieving are asking the 'why' questions, they won't necessarily be ready to receive any answers even if they are based in fact and Scriptural truth.
Taking the issue, (which is the hurt from the loss, disappointment, etc) and turning it over to the LORD to speak to their hearts personally... Wow. Elegantly simple, and far better than trying to answer a person in the midst of grief. As long as the answer isn't "God took them", "It was just their time" or "God just needed another angel" lines of unbelief and crap... I am certain that God will help sort it out for them.
First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth.
If youbelieve God has healed all of our sickness past tense why would you assume its not for everyone or up to Gods discretion,God is not a respected of persons and what has been done God does not Change.
Yup - Hobart Freeman was "Taken out" by a easily treatable infection that Hobart "Knew in FAITH" was healed - until it killed him, of course.
Maybe he was to ignorant to accept the cure or had a delusion for the cure.
We do not question how we are healed be it faith,miracle,or medicine that is a common misconception about WOF.
DEATH, of course is the ultimate healing. Lots of TRUTH in that. And the "Religious stuff" that people "SAY" about what they're "believeing"/"have faith for" may not mean much of anything.
Do you consider the Bible religous stuff? Because we do not believe out of the will of God that is written in the Word. Anything else is man made error.
"But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person."
We do not have all the answers for every thing nor do we claim to.
There are true reasons sometimes hidden that we cannot discern,yet that does not Change the truth of Gods Word.
The QUESTION, of course is what does "being a Strong Faith Person" actually mean. Folks may have a STRONG FAITH in one area, and ZERO faith in another. FAITH, after all is revelatory, and if you DON'T KNOW what God's intention in a certain area is, then there's NOTHING to base a claim of "Faith" on. Paul ministered Resurrection to people, and yet left Trophimus behind in Miletum when he got sick. "FAITH" for one thing doesn't necessarily mean "FAITH" for something else. FAITH is revelatory, and Sourced by God - the "Hearing of Faith" (Gal 3:2-5).
We do know Gods intention (will) we find it in his Word.
God is not double minded,and all things come from him.
Gods grace is our source of faith,because it is impossible to please him if we do not recieve it
Would God be unjust by not giving something he is pleased we have?
That would be illogical.
[
B]"Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part."[/B]
BINGO!!! That's the WoF "Back door clause". IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.
I have never heard this in such a fashion,but it could be bad preaching or speaking death by trying to make excuses before its over.
Like oh God wanted another Angel or you never know what God is thinking.
We are spirit filled tongue talking full gospel are we not.
You think that could bare fruit sometimes.
WoF folks have gotten beat up for saying it was because of their lack of faith, and rightfully so.
No beaten up because others lack of faith.
Others suppose that we present ourselves as supermen,when we are only trying to help
People live as God intended by his promises.
But if we put on glasses got you your not superman your a fake.
Ever suppose our eyes needed glasses to be made whole?
That by being blessed with glasses was our healing.
We do not deny the reality of our afflictions we deny their right.
True statement, and the FACT IS that when the thing believed for DIDN'T HAPPEN, then there WAS NO FAITH - PERIOD (God won't tell you He's doing something, and then NOT DO IT).
Amen
What was TAUGHT as FAITH (By the WoF false teachers) was nothing more that PRESUMPTION, and false hope.
False teachers would have to be qualified by who you speak of.
"you can just say you don't know, because you don't."
Yes
BINGO!!! if you don't know what to say - then it's not a SIN just to say that you don't know.
OK sure fine dandy.
"But, when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?"
I don't know.
Same answer. If you Don't know what to say (and the Holy Spirit isn't "filling in the Blanks") then HEAVEN'S SAKE don't try to "Make up" something religious that supports your "theology"!!!!
Unless by their statements or actions or our not discerning demonic presence,why would we be that cruel?
Bottom line - Hebrews 11:1 DEFINES Biblical faith, as being the SUBSTANCE (The established reality) of the thing hoped for, and the EVIDENCE (of the existence) of what's not there.
I do not twist or restate to imply other meaning.
Substance and evidence is literal terms.
FAITH KNOWS. And if there's doubt, or confusion about the situation - IF you DIDN'T Hear from God about His intent - then there may be "Belief", and there may be "HOPE", and there may be well-meaning folks trying to Tell you religious things about what God WILL DO (maybe) - but the FACT IS that you DON'T KNOW what God will do, and so there's NO FAITH - period.
Not true you can speak to a mountain yet in your mind wonder and your speaking faith
Will cause the mountain to move.
According to Mark there are two ways to recieve your answer.
Speak faith proclaim victory,or pray to God the Father in Jesus name.
My Favorite illustration was the 24 year old fellow in my bible study back in the '70s who was a "Dead man walking" - Sent home from the hospital with a terminal cancer. Cold to the touch, weak as a kitten, and pale as a ghost - Chemo had failed, and so had radiation, and there was nothing left to do but keep him as comfortable as possible until he died in a few weeks max.
They were all United Church of Christ folks, so they were ultra-liberal theologically, and Nobody, other than myself, who'd ever even HEARD of "WoF teaching" (generally called "Name it, and Claim it" at the time).
By the critics and word of doubt folks I bet.
And God TOLD his mother, who was also in my study, that He would recover fully, and NOT die. She DIDN'T ask us to pray for healing (no need, it had already been granted), but to join her in thanking God for His provision. And so we did.
Amen
Nobody else in the study had any real FAITH that He'd be O.K. (when you see a need, it's EASY to "Hear a voice"). but we joined her in the HOPE that She really had heard from God.
Amen
And then over the next few weeks he "just got better" his color came back, hair grew in again, his strength returned, and 8 months later the medical folks declared him "Cancer free" - and 30 years later (The last time I heard) he still was (and a member of the AoG in St. Mary's, Ohio).
Amen
Just like Peter and the cripple at the temple gate (but not as immediately). Pete didn't "PRAY" for the man's healing - He KNEW what was going to happen, and just SPOKE IT.
That's Biblical "Word of Faith".
No that is what people call name and claim
Faith KNOWS.
First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth.
Yup - Hobart Freeman was "Taken out" by a easily treatable infection that Hobart "Knew in FAITH" was healed - until it killed him, of course.
DEATH, of course is the ultimate healing. Lots of TRUTH in that. And the "Religious stuff" that people "SAY" about what they're "believeing"/"have faith for" may not mean much of anything.
"But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person."
The QUESTION, of course is what does "being a Strong Faith Person" actually mean. Folks may have a STRONG FAITH in one area, and ZERO faith in another. FAITH, after all is revelatory, and if you DON'T KNOW what God's intention in a certain area is, then there's NOTHING to base a claim of "Faith" on. Paul ministered Resurrection to people, and yet left Trophimus behind in Miletum when he got sick. "FAITH" for one thing doesn't necessarily mean "FAITH" for something else. FAITH is revelatory, and Sourced by God - the "Hearing of Faith" (Gal 3:2-5).
"Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part."
BINGO!!! That's the WoF "Back door clause". IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.
WoF folks have gotten beat up for saying it was because of their lack of faith, and rightfully so.
What was TAUGHT as FAITH (By the WoF false teachers) was nothing more that PRESUMPTION, and false hope.
"But, when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?"
Bottom line - Hebrews 11:1 DEFINES Biblical faith, as being the SUBSTANCE (The established reality) of the thing hoped for, and the EVIDENCE (of the existence) of what's not there.
FAITH KNOWS. - IF you DIDN'T Hear from God about His intent - then there may be "Belief", and there may be "HOPE", and there may be well-meaning folks trying to Tell you religious things about what God WILL DO (maybe) - but the FACT IS that you DON'T KNOW what God will do, and so there's NO FAITH - period.
And God TOLD his mother, who was also in my study, that He would recover fully, and NOT die. She DIDN'T ask us to pray for healing (no need, it had already been granted), but to join her in thanking God for His provision. And so we did.
Nobody else in the study had any real FAITH that He'd be O.K. (when you see a need, it's EASY to "Hear a voice"). but we joined her in the HOPE that She really had heard from God.
Just like Peter and the cripple at the temple gate (but not as immediately). Pete didn't "PRAY" for the man's healing - He KNEW what was going to happen, and just SPOKE IT. That's Biblical "Word of Faith".
I believe there are a number of reasons that they were not healed, but none of them are because God did not want them healed.First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth.
Many people could be healed but they choose to side with doubt. That's not toxic if you actually know about the doubts. Sometimes the doublemindedness is because they walk amiss and on the inside, their faith has been shipwrecked. People get into the permissive will of God and that often brings serious problems....So, how do we respond in a loving way when we are asked point blank?
...when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?
Sometimes that is the case as well. Some say that if you wait till it's too late to begin renewing your mind to the truth, then you made your mistakes along the way.I tell folks that we are all at different levels of faith and we are not to look down at someone who may not be at your level.
This is one of the things you have to fight in your good fight of faith. All of the people who did die. There's plenty of regular examples (of people who didn't know of the provision) and died, and then people break out examples of faith people who were taken out.Yup - Hobart Freeman was "Taken out" by a easily treatable infection that Hobart "Knew in FAITH" was healed - until it killed him, of course.
We have to qualify with obedience. If we're obedient, we still have to have faith. What people say and believe for is vital to receiving by faith. Look at all the words of Jesus. People responded to Him and were told to believe or that they were healed because they had faith and believed.And the "Religious stuff" that people "SAY" about what they're "believeing"/"have faith for" may not mean much of anything.
As we have received the lesson the Lord told Kenneth Hagin about "the secret things of the Lord". You aren't allowed to know all of the answers. Their are mitigating circumtances of a person's life and we just have to leave it in God's hands."But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person."
That's true. Another possibility for people to consider.The QUESTION, of course is what does "being a Strong Faith Person" actually mean. Folks may have a STRONG FAITH in one area, and ZERO faith in another.
God wants all of His children to be healthy and partaking of their inheritance. It comes by faith and by knowledge of hearing and continuing in the truth. These things are always something to base your faith on.FAITH, after all is revelatory, and if you DON'T KNOW what God's intention in a certain area is, then there's NOTHING to base a claim of "Faith" on.
Hate to hear 'Bingo!" because that is usually something someone yells when they win the game. It's a statement of rejoicing, but it's the wrong kind of "truth"."Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part."
BINGO!!! That's the WoF "Back door clause". IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.
Whether or not people are at the faith stage of receiving, you still have to believe. That means that you still talk the talk. This makes people seem like liars or deceived, or what, but it's still calling things that be not. Abraham knew he was the father of a multitude, although he had no child. When he had one, it was still no multitude. Yet he was strong in faith, giving glory to God. Some things take time and have to be walked out. You can also be talked out of what you're standing for. Either way, you have to not only walk the walk, you have to talk the talk.True statement, and the FACT IS that when the thing believed for DIDN'T HAPPEN, then there WAS NO FAITH - PERIOD (God won't tell you He's doing something, and then NOT DO IT).
Give us an example. This should be good. You see, people throw out what we call "Word of Faith" because of accusations like this. People do make mistakes, but the faith message as correctly taught is the Word of God and abides forever. We just have to meet the conditions.What was TAUGHT as FAITH (By the WoF false teachers) was nothing more that PRESUMPTION, and false hope.
The thing is, you receive the truth "til the day dawns" and you fully understand. You get enough of a sense of truth in your spirit that the promise is true. You stand in that. You have to decide to abide in that and not be doubleminded. You may not have harvest faith yet, but the path there still involves believing.<FAITH KNOWS. And if there's doubt, or confusion about the situation - IF you DIDN'T Hear from God about His intent - then there may be "Belief", and there may be "HOPE", and there may be well-meaning folks trying to Tell you religious things about what God WILL DO (maybe) - but the FACT IS that you DON'T KNOW what God will do, and so there's NO FAITH - period.
Peter preached the Word and that was the basis for the man's faith. You don't have to pray always for someone's healing. You can receive on your own for that matter. You do have to hear though. There is also the prayer of faith, and in that context, it is proper to do so. You also have to actually have faith to pray this way. You also have to have a promise to believe in to have faith.Just like Peter and the cripple at the temple gate (but not as immediately). Pete didn't "PRAY" for the man's healing - He KNEW what was going to happen, and just SPOKE IT. That's Biblical "Word of Faith".
I would hardly call speaking and agreeing with the Word "parrotting a mantra". The thing is, it is ok to seek medical help. When your manifestation comes, then you're ready to see it come and displace what's going on in the physical realm. t's up to God when that comes (if it does) and if there is something in the realm of natural wisdom we have to employ along the way. IPeople aren't sure how to stay in faith while they are waiting for the full corn in the ear and make mistakes. Too bad to be sure.Contradiction in terms, If your "Mind" doesn't KNOW - then you have no "Substance, or Evidence", and you're not "speaking FAITH" at all - just parroting "Mantras" - it's called "Presumption". ANd when the "Mountain" DOESN'T move, then it's all YOUR FAULT for not maintaining a "Right profession" consistently enough. This is the very HEART of "TOXIC Wof False teaching.
First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth.
Yup - Hobart Freeman was "Taken out" by a easily treatable infection that Hobart "Knew in FAITH" was healed - until it killed him, of course.
DEATH, of course is the ultimate healing. Lots of TRUTH in that. And the "Religious stuff" that people "SAY" about what they're "believeing"/"have faith for" may not mean much of anything.
"But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person."
The QUESTION, of course is what does "being a Strong Faith Person" actually mean. Folks may have a STRONG FAITH in one area, and ZERO faith in another. FAITH, after all is revelatory, and if you DON'T KNOW what God's intention in a certain area is, then there's NOTHING to base a claim of "Faith" on. Paul ministered Resurrection to people, and yet left Trophimus behind in Miletum when he got sick. "FAITH" for one thing doesn't necessarily mean "FAITH" for something else. FAITH is revelatory, and Sourced by God - the "Hearing of Faith" (Gal 3:2-5).
"Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part."
BINGO!!! That's the WoF "Back door clause". IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.
WoF folks have gotten beat up for saying it was because of their lack of faith, and rightfully so.
True statement, and the FACT IS that when the thing believed for DIDN'T HAPPEN, then there WAS NO FAITH - PERIOD (God won't tell you He's doing something, and then NOT DO IT).
What was TAUGHT as FAITH (By the WoF false teachers) was nothing more that PRESUMPTION, and false hope.
"you can just say you don't know, because you don't."
BINGO!!! if you don't know what to say - then it's not a SIN just to say that you don't know.
"But, when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?"
Same answer. If you Don't know what to say (and the Holy Spirit isn't "filling in the Blanks") then HEAVEN'S SAKE don't try to "Make up" something religious that supports your "theology"!!!!
My Favorite illustration was the 24 year old fellow in my bible study back in the '70s who was a "Dead man walking" - Sent home from the hospital with a terminal cancer. Cold to the touch, weak as a kitten, and pale as a ghost - Chemo had failed, and so had radiation, and there was nothing left to do but keep him as comfortable as possible until he died in a few weeks max.
They were all United Church of Christ folks, so they were ultra-liberal theologically, and Nobody, other than myself, who'd ever even HEARD of "WoF teaching" (generally called "Name it, and Claim it" at the time).
And God TOLD his mother, who was also in my study, that He would recover fully, and NOT die. She DIDN'T ask us to pray for healing (no need, it had already been granted), but to join her in thanking God for His provision. And so we did.
Nobody else in the study had any real FAITH that He'd be O.K. (when you see a need, it's EASY to "Hear a voice"). but we joined her in the HOPE that She really had heard from God.
And then over the next few weeks he "just got better" his color came back, hair grew in again, his strength returned, and 8 months later the medical folks declared him "Cancer free" - and 30 years later (The last time I heard) he still was (and a member of the AoG in St. Mary's, Ohio).
Just like Peter and the cripple at the temple gate (but not as immediately). Pete didn't "PRAY" for the man's healing - He KNEW what was going to happen, and just SPOKE IT. That's Biblical "Word of Faith".
Faith KNOWS.
Quite frankly I cannot understand why people knee jerk over a doctrine of faith.
Faith is a core teaching of the Bible.
As mentioned by Harry,we may not know why someone dies.
We surely know its not God healing some and killing others.
That is Calvinism hidden in charisma.
That would be a divided kingdom, that is tossed in every direction.
You do not have to change your core beliefs to reconcile tough questions.
By somehow finding a scapegoat,or straw man in accusing people who teach faith still does not settle the question.
This type of criticism will only delay the answer by forming a distraction.
"It is entirely possible that a person had faith, but was missing the mark in love, thus causing their faith to be ineffective."
No way Hosea!!!
"Faith" is when You KNOW what's been provided - Because the Word of God to YOU promised it. IF you have Biblical Faith, then you ALREADY HAVE the "Substance" of the thing you hoped for, and the conclusive EVIDENCE of the provision before it gets there. (Heb 11:1). Anything else isn't "Faith" at all.
"LOVE" has nothing to do with that one way or another, and CAN'T MAKE a god-given reality "inneffective".
Bottom line - if what you "Call" faith is ineffective, then it was never REALLY "Faith" to begin with. Just "Presumption, or "superheated hope".
(John 16:27) Jesus told His disciples, "The Father Himself loved me and have believed that I came from God." Jesus makes an explicit connection between LOVE and FAITH (belief). FAITH and LOVE are intertwined.
Greater works...
_____________
Harry
"It is entirely possible that a person had faith, but was missing the mark in love, thus causing their faith to be ineffective."
No way Hosea!!!
"Faith" is when You KNOW what's been provided - Because the Word of God to YOU promised it. IF you have Biblical Faith, then you ALREADY HAVE the "Substance" of the thing you hoped for, and the conclusive EVIDENCE of the provision before it gets there. (Heb 11:1). Anything else isn't "Faith" at all.
"LOVE" has nothing to do with that one way or another, and CAN'T MAKE a god-given reality "inneffective".
Bottom line - if what you "Call" faith is ineffective, then it was never REALLY "Faith" to begin with. Just "Presumption, or "superheated hope".
...people can have faith and yet not receive that which they are trusting God for. Why? Because there is something else they are failing to do. One involves love. The other involves corresponding actions....
Mentioning only:
"It's also amazing that God must have allowed the rest of you to witness the result of "her faith" even when no one else in the group had any real FAITH, as you said."
Why in God's green earth would you "Be amazed" that God would show his healing and resoring power to a group of folks who were seeking HIM??
Are you REALLY that "elitist", that you think that your little "Faith club" are the only ones "Worthy" to see God in action??
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