Responding to the 'closed canon' argument against special revelations and sign gifts?

ARBITER01

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You are taking that one verse in isolation and missing the bigger picture, including that the above scripture is either denied or perhaps qualified by subsequent verses.
v5b...Now the one prophesying is greater than the one speaking in tongues, unless he should interpret, so that the church might receive edification.
If as the above clearly implies, the interpretation is speaking from God to men for their edification, then the initial tongue was also speaking to from God men.

So from this we can see that tongues can be directed at God, or at men.
And those men may understand the tongue, or may need the aid of an interpretation.

As I said in another post, there are only two types of tongues in scripture, ones that edify the individual, ie tongues by our human spirit in personal prayer, and ones that edify the assembly, ie tongues by The Holy Spirit. It's the same gift no matter what, but it's use is different.

There's no further meaning of diverse tongues. Scripture says that tongues are not understandable since they are directed to GOD,.... and that statement by The Holy Spirit applies across scripture,... and that obviously includes Acts 2.

We have to understand Acts 2 under that stipulation, and it's easy to abide by that if we just understand that all 9 of the gifts were poured out at the same time, and more than one gift was operating during that event.

It's why Joel said that folks would prophesy,... you had tongues with interpretation happening. Tongues with interpretation, according to scripture, is equal to the gift of prophecy.

Those tongues in acts 2 were by utterance of The Holy Spirit,... so they had interpretation of tongues by utterance of The Holy Spirit also. This was the very first corporate operation of tongues,... they just didn't have a church building yet.

To be honest, I just don't think most folks here have looked into understanding the gifts of The Holy Spirit as much as they should have over the years. I admit, this section can be very confusing for some, but we have people here changing their story every couple of months.

It comes down to people attempting to say that tongues can be understood somehow, and in turn making The Holy Spirit out to be a liar over in Corinthians, and they do this every single time.
 
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Hidden In Him

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A progressive revelation seems to be par for the course...

From the OT:
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

From 12:9 we can see that the disclosing or unsealing of the angel's words (12:7) will not happen until the time of the end.

Therefore, we can say with assurance that this verse bears witness that there will be an unsealing, disclosing or revealing at the time of the end.


I didn't have time to go through it all yesterday before logging off, but this post has some interesting insights in it. The latter parts are speculative, but the above is unquestionably applicable to the subject matter at hand. There is no way that anyone in Daniel's time would have seen the 21st century and been able to explain his vision perfectly, nor was there anyone in New Testament times. The full interpretation of what the Book of Revelation and Daniel were referring to has been reserved for us in ours, and for the generations now ahead of us.

And no, I do not care to debate with a Historicist on what I just said, LoL. The Futurist point of view will be proven out to have been the accurate one. But the mystery of lawlessness was indeed that; a mystery. How things will eventually play out is Hidden in Christ, and is and will be revealed only to His own, lest the profane pervert the church with a myriad of false teachings.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Yep. That happened in the early church alright. But those ones were more open to the Holy Spirit, and the early church was born in the power of the Holy Spirit. Not like today's churches that are still caught up in the aftermath of the apostate church with its rituals and ceremonies.

Bah! LoL. You do this too often, Oscarr. :) "There is no scriptural evidence for this and that" until someone posts direct scriptural evidence for it, and then you pivot to the 21st century to "qualify" that no scripture applies to today (or some other tactic). If there is no scriptural evidence for anything unless the word specifically states, "In the 21st century, this shall happen," there is virtually no scriptural evidence for anything, and the church is now just hopelessly spinning off in circles into oblivion, LoL.


sit-n-spin.gif
 
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I'm talking from inexperience, but I would probably pay attention to two things:
  • The fruit of the person.
  • Whether they confirm their message with words of knowledge (i.e. information they couldn't have possibly known or guessed about me, which the Holy Spirit has to have revealed supernaturally to them).
I'm not trying to be opstropolis in my further questioning, but it is in the spirit of testing all things and holding fast to that which is good, so be patient with me.

Seeing that demons know all about us through observation and can give information about us to a self-appointed "seer", do you think that the person giving accurate information about you is a true test of whether a "word of knowledge" is from the Holy Spirit or not? Also, a counterfeit can be so close to the genuine that it can show exactly the same fruit as the genuine. Wouldn't it be risky for someone you don't know personally to come up to you and give you a "word of knowledge"? Of course if the person knows you personally, there is no way of knowing whether the information is coming supernaturally or from his own personal knowledge of you.

One of the faults of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is that everything supernatural is viewed as coming from the Holy Spirit, when that is not the case. There is much that is supernatural coming from the New Age occult, and there are wolves in sheep's clothing coming into Christian environments bringing counterfeits of all the spiritual gifts, even in supernatural ways.

To be honest, after 12 full years in the Pentecostal movement I thought I knew the different between the genuine and the counterfeit, but after the next 38 years and seeing so much of the counterfeit invading the Charismatic movement, I am not so sure and I have to say that I no longer know the difference between what is genuine and what is counterfeit.
 
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Well I thought this thread was pretty good (below), but I admit that such evidence is tougher to come by these days than it was during the early days of the NT era. But we may have to agree to disagree to agree, or was it the other way around? Lol.

Tongues for unbelievers - Amazing Testimony
The definition of tongues in the list is "various tongues". Therefore tongues as a sign to unbelievers can very well fit into the list. So, I concede that there are different types of tongues according to the situation in which they can be used. I believe that when someone speaks in tongues and the language is understood by a native speaker of that language, especially if the native speaker is not converted, this can be a very powerful sign that the Gospel is true and that Jesus is alive today, such as happened to the unsaved Cantonese woman who heard a European man praying in tongues saying in Cantonese, "You need to go forward and receive Christ", which she did.
 
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Bah! LoL. You do this too often, Oscarr. :) "There is no scriptural evidence for this and that" until someone posts direct scriptural evidence for it, and then you pivot to the 21st century to "qualify" that no scripture applies to today (or some other tactic). If there is no scriptural evidence for anything unless the word specifically states, "In the 21st century, this shall happen," there is virtually no scriptural evidence for anything, and the church is now just hopelessly spinning off in circles into oblivion, LoL.


sit-n-spin.gif
The fact remains that we don't see the power of the Holy Spirit in today's churches that is described in the book of Acts. We see plenty of assertions about the power of the Spirit, but it doesn't seem to go beyond words and unfulfilled promises. I don't really know why we don't see the real power of God manifested in today's preaching of the Gospel. All I can do is to make guesses based on what I see going on in our present-day Pentecostal and Charismatic churches that are claiming to be moving in the power of the Holy Spirit, when what I actually see is that "the emperor has got no clothes on."
 
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topher694

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One of the faults of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is
I'm seriously growing tired of this drumbeat. How many Pentecostal/Charismatic churches did you attend before you found your "freedom"? One? Two? Five? Don't get me wrong I certainly know of Pentecostal/Charismatic churches that behave exactly as you describe, but I also know of plenty that do not.

Heck, I've heard the exact opposite argument than you are making about "Pentecostals" here. That they see "demons" everywhere, under every rock. Tell me how can both of these things be true of Pentecostals at the same time?

Perhaps it's time to put aside any past church hurt you might have and stop with the negative generalities about other Christians. It produces nothing good for the Kingdom of God.
 
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Guojing

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It might have saved a little confusion if you made your posts clearer. However, it's still not true. Long before the nation of Israel existed, men were being saved.
Go read Hebrews11 and you will see all the Gentiles who served the Lord before Abraham, Isaac or Jacob were born.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, plus countless others unnamed.
And of course, Cornelius was born again long before Peter arrived at his doorstep.

I cannot stop you from reading into my post and claiming what I did not claim.

Israel the nation only existed starting from Exodus.

As for Cornelius, there is no scripture indicating your claim.
 
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I'm seriously growing tired of this drumbeat. How many Pentecostal/Charismatic churches did you attend before you found your "freedom"? One? Two? Five? Don't get me wrong I certainly know of Pentecostal/Charismatic churches that behave exactly as you describe, but I also know of plenty that do not.

Heck, I've heard the exact opposite argument than you are making about "Pentecostals" here. That they see "demons" everywhere, under every rock. Tell me how can both of these things be true of Pentecostals at the same time?

Perhaps it's time to put aside any past church hurt you might have and stop with the negative generalities about other Christians. It produces nothing good for the Kingdom of God.
I firmly believe that God has ordained that signs and wonders in the form of instant healing of sicknesses and disabilities, and casting out of demons be an integral part of the preaching of the Gospel. That's what I see in the ministry of Peter and Paul in Acts, and Acts has not been concluded yet.

But all we seem to see these days are people claiming to have the signs and wonders, but these go no further than just the claims. I have an enquiring mind. I am seeking reasons why the Holy Spirit is not working with preachers of the Gospel in the way He did in Acts. Even Billy Graham, the most well known international evangelist was lucky to get even 5% of all the so-called converts who went forward in his crusades to remain as long-term committed Christians.

Am I the only one who is asking the important question about the elephant in the room, that although there is much talk about signs and wonders, very little is actually happening?

After 12 years in Pentecostal churches where much was taught and claimed about signs and wonders, I believed and accepted every word of it, and over the years in CF I passionately defended them, but I never saw any of it. That's why I became disillusioned. I realised that it was all talk and fruitless promises. I was never hurt by anyone in the movement, and I still have good friends in it.

But I am seeking answers as to why claims are being made of signs and wonders, but no real evidence of the actual power of the Holy Spirit that I read about in Acts.

Here we have Benny Hinn, one of the foremost and popular healing evangelists of our time, yet the back room of his crusade, full of terminally ill and disabled people go home night after night unchanged, and those who are prayed for and promised healing end up dying. How can a person be declared healed and still remain sick and die soon after? If there is enough power and anointing to cause people to be slain in the Spirit, why is there insufficient power to complete the job by actually healing the person?

And why does a healing evangelist have to have healthy people sit in wheelchairs to make it appear that they have been healed and are now able to walk, as has been observed in the meetings of a prominent healing evangelist. Why does that evangelist have to resort to fraud and deception when the power of the Holy Spirit is present to genuinely heal wheelchair bound people?

Of course, people are being healed. I have a CD containing the testimonies of 130 people healed of all kinds of incurable medical conditions as the result of New Zealand healing evangelist Bill Subritzky. So what was it about him that results happened, when all these other big-name healing evangelists didn't achieve any results? Perhaps Bill wasn't in it for the money.

So, I am not satisfied with the reasons given for the failure to achieve wide-spread results. With all the claims, nothing has happened to turn our culture around from going down the gurgler of atheism, occult, and neo-paganism. So, with all the claims of the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches of having the power of the Holy Spirit to change lives and society, they have not made even a small dent on the atheistic, occult, neo-pagan brick wall that our society has built up.

My question is, why? And I won't be satisfied until I get a clear answer to it.
 
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Finally after 30 minutes of unresponsiveness, I am able to edit this duplicate post.

But to add to my last one: I was with my last Charismatic church from 1973-79, and this church claimed to be at the cutting edge of what God was doing in the city and that the city will be completely changed for God by its ministry. After six years, nothing changed and hardly any unconverted person knew the church even existed. So much for their claims!
 
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topher694

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I firmly believe that God has ordained that signs and wonders in the form of instant healing of sicknesses and disabilities, and casting out of demons be an integral part of the preaching of the Gospel. That's what I see in the ministry of Peter and Paul in Acts, and Acts has not been concluded yet.

But all we seem to see these days are people claiming to have the signs and wonders, but these go no further than just the claims. I have an enquiring mind. I am seeking reasons why the Holy Spirit is not working with preachers of the Gospel in the way He did in Acts. Even Billy Graham, the most well known international evangelist was lucky to get even 5% of all the so-called converts who went forward in his crusades to remain as long-term committed Christians.

Am I the only one who is asking the important question about the elephant in the room, that although there is much talk about signs and wonders, very little is actually happening?

After 12 years in Pentecostal churches where much was taught and claimed about signs and wonders, I believed and accepted every word of it, and over the years in CF I passionately defended them, but I never saw any of it. That's why I became disillusioned. I realised that it was all talk and fruitless promises. I was never hurt by anyone in the movement, and I still have good friends in it.

But I am seeking answers as to why claims are being made of signs and wonders, but no real evidence of the actual power of the Holy Spirit that I read about in Acts.

Here we have Benny Hinn, one of the foremost and popular healing evangelists of our time, yet the back room of his crusade, full of terminally ill and disabled people go home night after night unchanged, and those who are prayed for and promised healing end up dying. How can a person be declared healed and still remain sick and die soon after? If there is enough power and anointing to cause people to be slain in the Spirit, why is there insufficient power to complete the job by actually healing the person?

And why does a healing evangelist have to have healthy people sit in wheelchairs to make it appear that they have been healed and are now able to walk, as has been observed in the meetings of a prominent healing evangelist. Why does that evangelist have to resort to fraud and deception when the power of the Holy Spirit is present to genuinely heal wheelchair bound people?

Of course, people are being healed. I have a CD containing the testimonies of 130 people healed of all kinds of incurable medical conditions as the result of New Zealand healing evangelist Bill Subritzky. So what was it about him that results happened, when all these other big-name healing evangelists didn't achieve any results? Perhaps Bill wasn't in it for the money.

So, I am not satisfied with the reasons given for the failure to achieve wide-spread results. With all the claims, nothing has happened to turn our culture around from going down the gurgler of atheism, occult, and neo-paganism. So, with all the claims of the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches of having the power of the Holy Spirit to change lives and society, they have not made even a small dent on the atheistic, occult, neo-pagan brick wall that our society has built up.

My question is, why? And I won't be satisfied until I get a clear answer to it.
I know where you stand. I know your history from previous posts. I understand your frustrations. I just think your approach is just as damaging as those you are pointing out. You can say the same thing without throwing large groups of people you've never met and thousands of churches you've never been to under the bus. All it does is villianize them and make them defensive, thus continuing the unhealthy cycle.
 
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Guojing

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I firmly believe that God has ordained that signs and wonders in the form of instant healing of sicknesses and disabilities, and casting out of demons be an integral part of the preaching of the Gospel. That's what I see in the ministry of Peter and Paul in Acts, and Acts has not been concluded yet.

But all we seem to see these days are people claiming to have the signs and wonders, but these go no further than just the claims. I have an enquiring mind. I am seeking reasons why the Holy Spirit is not working with preachers of the Gospel in the way He did in Acts. Even Billy Graham, the most well known international evangelist was lucky to get even 5% of all the so-called converts who went forward in his crusades to remain as long-term committed Christians.

Am I the only one who is asking the important question about the elephant in the room, that although there is much talk about signs and wonders, very little is actually happening?

After 12 years in Pentecostal churches where much was taught and claimed about signs and wonders, I believed and accepted every word of it, and over the years in CF I passionately defended them, but I never saw any of it. That's why I became disillusioned. I realised that it was all talk and fruitless promises. I was never hurt by anyone in the movement, and I still have good friends in it.

But I am seeking answers as to why claims are being made of signs and wonders, but no real evidence of the actual power of the Holy Spirit that I read about in Acts.

Here we have Benny Hinn, one of the foremost and popular healing evangelists of our time, yet the back room of his crusade, full of terminally ill and disabled people go home night after night unchanged, and those who are prayed for and promised healing end up dying. How can a person be declared healed and still remain sick and die soon after? If there is enough power and anointing to cause people to be slain in the Spirit, why is there insufficient power to complete the job by actually healing the person?

And why does a healing evangelist have to have healthy people sit in wheelchairs to make it appear that they have been healed and are now able to walk, as has been observed in the meetings of a prominent healing evangelist. Why does that evangelist have to resort to fraud and deception when the power of the Holy Spirit is present to genuinely heal wheelchair bound people?

Of course, people are being healed. I have a CD containing the testimonies of 130 people healed of all kinds of incurable medical conditions as the result of New Zealand healing evangelist Bill Subritzky. So what was it about him that results happened, when all these other big-name healing evangelists didn't achieve any results? Perhaps Bill wasn't in it for the money.

So, I am not satisfied with the reasons given for the failure to achieve wide-spread results. With all the claims, nothing has happened to turn our culture around from going down the gurgler of atheism, occult, and neo-paganism. So, with all the claims of the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches of having the power of the Holy Spirit to change lives and society, they have not made even a small dent on the atheistic, occult, neo-pagan brick wall that our society has built up.

My question is, why? And I won't be satisfied until I get a clear answer to it.

Actually, what is so difficult to accept that signs and wonders are for the nation of Israel, and when the nation fell by the end of Acts, signs and wonders stopped with that event.

The Old Testament had precedents regarding sudden cessation, as stated in Joshua 5:12, the manna from heaven just suddenly ceased, once Israel ate the fruit of the land they captured.

You don't have to be dishearten though, depending on how you view the end times, signs and wonders will be making a "comeback" during the Tribulation period.

Once the nation of Israel becomes God's favored nation again during that time, you will see abundant signs and wonders everywhere, by the 144 000, by the 2 witnesses, and even from the Antichrist himself.
 
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I did a duplicate post because of the unresponsiveness of the forum. I clicked the button again because I thought it wasn't working. The site has been frustratingly slow and unresponsive for the last five hours. All the other sites have been okay, so I think there is an issue with CF today. I tried the edit function, but it would just not work. I wonder if others are having troubles with CF and its lack of responsiveness within a reasonable time. Waiting up to 10 minutes for a response is not very good at all.
 
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I know where you stand. I know your history from previous posts. I understand your frustrations. I just think your approach is just as damaging as those you are pointing out. You can say the same thing without throwing large groups of people you've never met and thousands of churches you've never been to under the bus. All it does is villianize them and make them defensive, thus continuing the unhealthy cycle.
I guess that Jeremiah did a lot of damage to the prophetic ministry in Judah when he told the people that most of their prophets were false and they shouldn't listen to them. The Baal worshippers didn't like what Jeremiah was saying so they threw him down a well.
 
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Actually, what is so difficult to accept that signs and wonders are for the nation of Israel, and when the nation fell by the end of Acts, signs and wonders stopped with that event.

The Old Testament had precedents regarding sudden cessation, as stated in Joshua 5:12, the manna from heaven just suddenly ceased, once Israel ate the fruit of the land they captured.

You don't have to be dishearten though, depending on how you view the end times, signs and wonders will be making a "comeback" during the Tribulation period.

Once the nation of Israel becomes God's favored nation again during that time, you will see abundant signs and wonders everywhere, by the 144 000, by the 2 witnesses, and even from the Antichrist himself.
Seeing that this forum is for those who believe that the sign gifts are still for today, I fully support that signs and wonders are still ordained of God to accompany the preaching of the Gospel. God has not changed His approach. The church has changed its approach and that is where the separation occurs.

Cessation of the sign gifts was never God's idea. The issue is that there are certain criteria for the gifts to manifest. When the church in general meets God's criteria for the manifestation of the sign gifts, they will be generally evident again.
 
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Guojing

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Seeing that this forum is for those who believe that the sign gifts are still for today, I fully support that signs and wonders are still ordained of God to accompany the preaching of the Gospel. God has not changed His approach. The church has changed its approach and that is where the separation occurs.

Cessation of the sign gifts was never God's idea. The issue is that there are certain criteria for the gifts to manifest. When the church in general meets God's criteria for the manifestation of the sign gifts, they will be generally evident again.

Oh I forgot, I thought this was the same thread you post elsewhere where we were also interacting.
 
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Israel the nation only existed starting from Exodus.
That's my point. According to you, Israel had to be saved before anyone else could be saved. Yet people have always been saved from Adam onwards.
As for Cornelius, there is no scripture indicating your claim.
So presumably, you think Cornelius's relationship with the Lord didn't start till Peter visited? The context says otherwise.

How about this guy, maybe the same centurion, or just a brother officer,---
Matt8v10And Jesus having heard, marveled and said to those following, “Truly I say to you, no one in Israel with faith so great have I found. 11And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will recline with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.”
This centurion's faith exceeded that of any believer in Israel, including the disciples. Jesus points out that he will be in heaven reclining among the true sons of the kingdom!
 
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Finally after 30 minutes of unresponsiveness, I am able to edit this duplicate post.

But to add to my last one: I was with my last Charismatic church from 1973-79, and this church claimed to be at the cutting edge of what God was doing in the city and that the city will be completely changed for God by its ministry. After six years, nothing changed and hardly any unconverted person knew the church even existed. So much for their claims!
That sounds par for the course in many churches Oscarr.
Here's one of the most recurring visions I have heard from churches all around the UK, starting back in the 70s.
I shall paraphrase what I heard.

"I had a vision, (or dream) and in the vision, I was watching a map of the UK, and I could see a pin prick of light growing brighter. I then realised that the light was coming from what God was doing in this church. And as I watched, I saw that this light ignited other pinpricks of light radiating from here, and that light gradually spread all around the land until the whole nation was covered in light...........blah blah blah etc"

It's a bit sad really, but there you go. Many churches see themselves as the centre of the universe, the only place in tune with God.

That was true in the first charismatic church I attended as a new believer, and where I first heard the vision, and where I also fell for it.
Then I grew up and started listening to the Spirit rather than the leadership.
Later on I discovered how the vision was being mirrored elsewhere, not just charismatic, but in Baptist churches etc.

Despite that common delusion, it's pointless tarring all churches with the same brush.


 
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