Responding to the 'closed canon' argument against special revelations and sign gifts?

Francis Drake

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I would say, in my opinion, that you don't have a full understanding of the concept of "signs".
And clearly, by limiting it to just one aspect, neither do you fully understand the concept of signs.

A sign is a sign, whether in scripture or on the ground. Context declares the recipient, and not all signs are for Israel.
Let me present the concept with scriptural backing.
  1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
  2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
  3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-31, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
Anyone can select isolated scriptures that seem to back their points
Here are some thinking questions for any interested readers to understand my points above

Did God tell Moses in Exodus 4, to tell the Jews to believe "in faith" that Moses is sent by God? In the last verse of Exodus 4, it was explicitly stated that the elders believed after the signs.

Did the Angel of the Lord rebuked Gideon, in Judges 6:17, when the latter asked for signs that it was indeed the Lord talking to him?

When John the Baptist's disciples came to Jesus in Luke 7 and ask him to verify his identity, why didn't Jesus rebuke them but immediately did all the signs required in Isaiah 35:4-6? Why didn't Jesus tell John's disciples to go back to John to tell him to believe in faith?
Asking for signs is about the same as asking for evidence. Israel, since she was born in the book of Exodus, was never expected to take by faith that God was with them.
"Israel was never expected to take by faith...............?"
If you believe that, then maybe you should take your theological scissors to chapter11 of Hebrews because it drives a coach and horses through what you've just said.
With this, I hope the true meaning of 1 Corinthians 1:22 would be clearer to the reader. Paul did not mention that "for fun" but rather to teach the Body of Christ something fundamental about the nation of Israel.

You clearly don't understand what Paul says there. In mentioning the Jews, he wasn't talking about
Israel as a whole, but the Jews at that time who had repeatedly rejected Jesus.
When the Jewish leaders had demanded a sign from Jesus, other than referring to the sign of Jonah, he refused. Jesus had been leaving a long trail of signs wherever he went, so there was no way He was going to jump through the hoops of the godless Pharisees.

Whether Jew, Israelite, or Gentile, the purpose of signs is to give faith in the power of God.
 
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Guojing

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And clearly, by limiting it to just one aspect, neither do you fully understand the concept of signs.

A sign is a sign, whether in scripture or on the ground. Context declares the recipient, and not all signs are for Israel.
Anyone can select isolated scriptures that seem to back their points

"Israel was never expected to take by faith...............?"
If you believe that, then maybe you should take your theological scissors to chapter11 of Hebrews because it drives a coach and horses through what you've just said.


You clearly don't understand what Paul says there. In mentioning the Jews, he wasn't talking about
Israel as a whole, but the Jews at that time who had repeatedly rejected Jesus.
When the Jewish leaders had demanded a sign from Jesus, other than referring to the sign of Jonah, he refused. Jesus had been leaving a long trail of signs wherever he went, so there was no way He was going to jump through the hoops of the godless Pharisees.

Whether Jew, Israelite, or Gentile, the purpose of signs is to give faith in the power of God.

When you claim "not all signs are for Israel", may I have some scripture where the signs are for gentiles?
 
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Francis Drake

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When you claim "not all signs are for Israel", may I have some scripture where the signs are for gentiles?

Acts2v17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

1Cor14v22Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

Rom15v18I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed, 19by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.
 
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Guojing

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Acts2v17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

1Cor14v22Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

Rom15v18I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed, 19by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.

In Acts 2, Peter is only addressing the Men of Judea (Acts 2:5, Acts 2:14).

For the other 2 scriptures, okay, I can see how one might use them to justify signs among gentiles.
 
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Francis Drake

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In Acts 2, Peter is only addressing the Men of Judea (Acts 2:5, Acts 2:14).
Confession time here. I laid a trap for you by putting that scripture first.
Here it is again.
Acts2v17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever (Jew, Gentile, black, white, green etc.) calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

So yes, Peter was obviously speaking to the local Jews, but the scripture itself in verse 17 shows it is addressing the whole world, far beyond Peter's local listeners.
In v17, God promises to pour out his spirit on all flesh, not just the Jews. And that important fact is rehearsed by Peter when he reports back from visiting Cornelius.
Acts11v15And in my beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, even as also upon us in the beginning. 16And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,a but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17If then God has given to them the same gift as also to us having believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how was I able to forbid God?”
 
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Guojing

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Confession time here. I laid a trap for you by putting that scripture first.
Here it is again.
Acts2v17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever (Jew, Gentile, black, white, green etc.) calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

So yes, Peter was obviously speaking to the local Jews, but the scripture itself in verse 17 shows it is addressing the whole world, far beyond Peter's local listeners.
In v17, God promises to pour out his spirit on all flesh, not just the Jews. And that important fact is rehearsed by Peter when he reports back from visiting Cornelius.
Acts11v15And in my beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, even as also upon us in the beginning. 16And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,a but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17If then God has given to them the same gift as also to us having believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how was I able to forbid God?”

Haha, laying a trap, as if it matters.

Under prophecy, Israel the nation is to be saved first, before any gentiles can be reached. Gentiles were still cut off in Acts 2 (Ephesians 2:11-12).

Whenever you interpret what the OT prophets are saying, whether Isaiah or Joel, you have to bear Ephesians 2:11-12 in mind.
 
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topher694

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Haha, laying a trap, as if it matters.

Under prophecy, Israel the nation is to be saved first, before any gentiles can be reached. Gentiles were still cut off in Acts 2 (Ephesians 2:11-12).

Whenever you interpret what the OT prophets are saying, whether Isaiah or Joel, you have to bear Ephesians 2:11-12 in mind.
Oh, for goodness sake, God is not as one-dimensional as you seem to want to make Him.
 
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jamiec

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It was recognised by the Early Church that inspired revelation to supplement what Jesus taught in the Gospels was given to the Apostles of Christ (Peter, Paul, John, James, and Jude). The book of Acts is a historical document describing the birth of the Early Church, showing how the Holy Spirit worked with the Apostles to establish it. All these were written during the 1st Century, with the last inspired book being Revelation, which was written near the end of the century. Once the last Apostle died, there were no more Apostles of Christ and therefore no more new inspired revelation. Subsequent writing by the Church Fathers explained and clarified the revelation that had already been given through the Apostles. None of the Church Fathers claimed special "new revelation" over and above what was already in the writings recognised by the church as the inspired writing of the Apostles.

The idea of "new revelation" started with the Papacy,
By which Bishop of Rome/Pope, please ? And when ? And in what document ?

If those men are going to be accused of doing or not doing stuff, it is only fair to produce the evidence on which the accusation is based. The more precise the reference, the better. Thank you.

FWIW, the CC is not cessationist, & never has been.
and in these modern times is carried on through the Charismatic Faith movement, Bethel, and Hillsong.

"Sign gifts" is not a term found in the New Testament. The gifts of the Holy Spirit as listed in 1 Corinthians 12 are for the strengthening of the whole body of Christ. These gifts are still there for the church today. They did not cease in the 4th Century onwards because of any decree from God. They ceased because Christians lost their first love and became as heathen as the pagans around them. Constantine closed the pagan temples and instructed pagans and Christians to worship together.
But the pagans brought their pagan practices into the Christian church as a result, and this merger of pagan and Christian resulted in the formation of the Papacy. A number those pagan practices have persisted in our churches to this day.

The purpose of the supernatural gifts was not as a sign that the Gospel was true. The Gospel itself is the power of God leading to salvation. Peter proved that in his message to the crowd at the Day of Pentecost. He did not have signs and wonders in his message to them, but 3000 happily and joyfully embraced Christ and continued in prayer, fellowship and in the Apostles' doctrine. It was the power of the Gospel through Peter's preaching that achieved this.

The presence of signs and wonders are there to confront the unconverted that God is real and alive and that they should fear Him. The signs and wonders in the early church restrained the Jews and pagans from destroying the infant church. In the presence of the signs and wonders, "great fear fell on all". In fact, they were too scared to do damage to the early church because they knew that supporting the church was a very real and powerful God.

The problem with the Faith movement is that they are pretending to have signs and wonders, but it is all talk. In spite of them saying that people are being saved and healed in their mega-churches and conferences, when the "healings" are examined, the reality is that no one has actually been healed at all, and that most who make decisions fall away back into the world, and not continue on in fellowship, prayer, and the Apostles' doctrine as long-term, faithful church members.
 
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Guojing

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Oh, for goodness sake, God is not as one-dimensional as you seem to want to make Him.

Nothing one dimensional about what I stated. It is actually quite beautiful if you put yourself in the shoes of Jews, and understand what they were thinking, before the fall of Israel.

Zechariah 8 lays out the timetable under the prophetic timetable.

Do you notice the order of salvation for everyone in the world in that chapter, starting from
  1. The return of the Lord to Jerusalem: 3 "Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain."
  2. The gathering of all the scattered Jews "7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
  3. The salvation of gentile nations thru the Jews "20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

    21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.

    22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

    23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
To understand what the Holy Spirit was speaking thru Peter in Acts 2, before the fall of the nation Israel, it is important to recognize this prophetic timetable in mind.

With this understanding of this timetable, we can now understand better why Peter resisted going to Cornelius in Acts 10 initially, why Peter stated Acts 10:28 to Cornelius, and why the Jewish believers criticized Peter for doing that in the aftermath in Acts 11:1-3.
 
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topher694

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Nothing one dimensional about what I stated. It is actually quite beautiful if you put yourself in the shoes of Jews, and understand what they were thinking, before the fall of Israel.

Zechariah 8 lays out the timetable under the prophetic timetable.

Do you notice the order of salvation for everyone in the world in that chapter, starting from
  1. The return of the Lord to Jerusalem: 3 "Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain."
  2. The gathering of all the scattered Jews "7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
  3. The salvation of gentile nations thru the Jews "20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

    21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.

    22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

    23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
To understand what the Holy Spirit was speaking thru Peter in Acts 2, before the fall of the nation Israel, it is important to recognize this prophetic timetable in mind.

With this understanding of this timetable, we can now understand better why Peter resisted going to Cornelius in Acts 10 initially, why Peter stated Acts 10:28 to Cornelius, and why the Jewish believers criticized Peter for doing that in the aftermath in Acts 11:1-3.
It is completely one-dimensional. I've read everything you've posted on this thread about it. You leave no room or ability for God to be accomplishing more that one thing at a time. Not to mention it is a mostly pointless debate anyway.
 
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Guojing

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It is completely one-dimensional. I've read everything you've posted on this thread about it. You leave no room or ability for God to be accomplishing more that one thing at a time. Not to mention it is a mostly pointless debate anyway.

Would you care to explain what you mean by "God to be accomplishing more that one thing at a time"?
 
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ARBITER01

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Seems like he is focused on OT prophecies that were already fulfilled and forgets that the Jews murdered their own Messiah,... and then started murdering Christians,... is it no wonder that GOD turned unto the Gentiles?

Additionally, The Holy Spirit has already said that the gifts are for the edifying of the body of Christ. He doesn't call out any sort of ethnic group over another, just those who have been reborn by His blood and filled.
 
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topher694

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Would you care to explain what you mean by "God to be accomplishing more that one thing at a time"?
Do you think that when God does a supernatural sign, that it is limited to one meaning to one group of people and that is it? That God can't multitask and His signs can't have layered meanings and impacts?
 
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Guojing

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Do you think that when God does a supernatural sign, that it is limited to one meaning to one group of people and that is it? That God can't multitask and His signs can't have layered meanings and impacts?

Oh, that is what you meant, I thought you were referring to the prophetic timetable.

Alright then, thanks for clarifying.
 
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Francis Drake

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Under prophecy, Israel the nation is to be saved first, before any gentiles can be reached. Gentiles were still cut off in Acts 2 (Ephesians 2:11-12).
Acts 2 says the opposite.
17‘And it will be in the last days, God says, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh,
Do you understand what all flesh means?
Whenever you interpret what the OT prophets are saying, whether Isaiah or Joel, you have to bear Ephesians 2:11-12 in mind.
I don't know where you get your theology from, but Eph2.11 says nothing of the sort.
 
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TedT

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A progressive revelation seems to be par for the course...

From the OT:
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

From 12:9 we can see that the disclosing or unsealing of the angel's words (12:7) will not happen until the time of the end.

Therefore, we can say with assurance that this verse bears witness that there will be an unsealing, disclosing or revealing at the time of the end.

Therefore may I once again suggest that, in the end times, we will be given a new understanding, ie, a revealing of that which has been sealed previously.

This verse also tells us that the understanding of the new disclosures will not be possessed by everyone, but that this blessing will be possessed only by the wise, that is, the purified. I also suggest that because the verse says that it is the wise who shall understand, some in-depth study might be required to understand the new disclosures, that is, that these new revelations will not be blinding visions of light, but that they will most likely appeal to our reason. Stated another way, they will be doctrinal, that discipline that requires so much discipline.

And from the NT also:
John 16:25 These things have I (Jesus) spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Which time was Jesus referring to? Was He speaking of a time more in the future (say like this time)? Well, if it was a time more in the future, then He would be referring to a future doctrinal revelation, would He not?

I guess that one way to tell the time of its fulfilment is to ask ourselves whether we (that is, our educated commentators) yet plainly know of the Father, or whether we do not have it so plainly yet?

In other words, do we understand the Bible plainly, or does it yet speak to us in proverbs? That's right - little is plain about Christian theology....

Revelation 10:8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: "Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land."

9 So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, "Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey." 10 I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour.

Very interesting, no? As a sign of the last days: a "scroll" or KJV "little book" is a diminutive form of the Greek biblos or in English, bible.

Since 'book' or 'scroll' denotes writing to me, I suggest that eating is a metaphor for reading the scroll* and is used so we can get the analogy of sweetness and bitterness/ sour taste into the metaphor.

To continue with the thought would take us to: I read the words on the little book and at first I thought they were very wonderful and gratifying (sweet) but later as I dwelt upon their meaning, I found them hard to digest, (sour in my stomach), that is, hard to accept in their full meaning.

This leads me to consider that in the last days a new revelation will be learned that at first seems great but then makes us scared or dismayed as we learn its implications.

*Does this inform us about the eating of the fruit in the garden?


In the context of the next verse:
Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. This person who read and studied until he understood the words in the little book must go out and be a prophet from the Lord, probably teaching us the words/ideas/revelation of the little book.

Since we all know the warnings of Rev 22:18:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
I'd also suggest that this new revelation is probably more correctly called a new understanding of a previous revelation similar to the way we got a new understanding about the Messiah from Jesus and the Apostles.

So I guess we had all better be open to a theological explanation of God's reality about the Church and/or the world, one that is different from all previous explanations we have been taught.

Might not such an occurrence put the Churches in the position of the Pharisees, stuck on their old understandings of the theology of the scriptures and rejecting the new understanding written in the little book?

It is funny that people say "it is not in the scriptures" when they really mean "I was never taught an understanding of the scriptures in this way."

Peace, Ted
 
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Hidden In Him

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show that premise 3 is false or 5)

I have found this option is fairly effective. I was discussing things at another forum with a Ceesstionist, and he was using the closed canon argument. I argued there would need to be proof that it was closed at the end of the New Testament era to say that the gifts ended with the apostles. He said there didn't need to be any, and that they were already written and understood to be the canon even if no council officially declared it yet until 393 A.D., and that which books were considered cannon and which were not was simply understood.

He quoted from Josh McDowell:

But anyway-- some of the evidence I found not in the Case for Christ, because I have given the book away-- but in Evidence that Demands a Verdict 2017 by Josh McDowell & Sean McDowell. Page 30- Speaking of Irenaeus (AD 180)-- Irenaeus as a bishop of Lyons in Gaul... 'His writings attest the canonical recognition of the fourfold gospel and Acts of Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus, of 1 Peter and 1 John and of the Revelation.

My response was that this argument runs contrary to the early church history, and pointed him to the Muratorian Fragment:

I appreciate the digging, but now he left out James, Jude, 2 Peter, Hebrews, 2 John, 3 John and Philemon.

And that is my point. What source would show they recognized ALL the New Testament books and ONLY the New Testament books and nothing else prior to 393 A.D? I don't think such a source exists. The Muratorian Fragment is the earliest attempt at an actual canon (dated to 170 A.D., which is contemporary with Irenaeus), and it doesn't include Hebrews, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, James and one of the epistles of John either. And it does includes the Apocalypse of Peter, which is regarded today as non-canonical.
Muratorian fragment - Wikipedia


In short, I don't think they have a leg to stand on with the closed canon argument. It has no support behind it whatsoever in my book.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Subsequent writing by the Church Fathers explained and clarified the revelation that had already been given through the Apostles. None of the Church Fathers claimed special "new revelation" over and above what was already in the writings recognised by the church as the inspired writing of the Apostles...


But they started misinterpreting those writings in various ways - some fairly quickly and some over time - and this brings up the major problem I have with the "no new revelation" argument. The term "revelation" can rightly be applied to receiving insight into accurate interpretation of the scriptures, and my question to you would be this: Do you believe the church currently understands the totality of the Old and New Testaments accurately? I ask, because if the answer is no, then it implies that "new revelation" is still needed.
 
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Hidden In Him

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The purpose of the supernatural gifts was not as a sign that the Gospel was true. The Gospel itself is the power of God leading to salvation. Peter proved that in his message to the crowd at the Day of Pentecost. He did not have signs and wonders in his message to them, but 3000 happily and joyfully embraced Christ and continued in prayer, fellowship and in the Apostles' doctrine. It was the power of the Gospel through Peter's preaching that achieved this.


Ok, now this I entirely disagree with, Oscarr. You make it sound as if Peter just got up and started preaching, when the first thing to occur was that the Holy Spirt Himself started speaking to Jews from every nationality present in their own native tongues. And Paul said tongues are "a sign to the unbeliever." Where do you get some of the stuff you believe? I think you went off the deep end into adopting conservative theology at some point, without really stopping to analyze by scripture what it was you were adopting. That's not a slight. It's just something that comes to mind when I read some of your posts.
 
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Hidden In Him

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It's the "Thus saith the Lord" thing. I don't accept any such statement simply because someone says it. Prophets in the OT seemed to be special people, KNOWN to the job. Not just someone in a worship service, and not someone on TV who claims to speak for the Lord. They are going to have to do better than that.


I do agree with this actually. I think the time has come, especially in light of the 2020 election debacle and what the vast majority of the "prophets" predicted, for those who claim to have genuine gifts to start backing it up better. It's why I tend to agree with some of the Cessationist complaints more these days. They are right that there should be evidence, and not just talk.
 
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