Responding to the 'closed canon' argument against special revelations and sign gifts?

Francis Drake

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You are reading into the passage. Paul did not say he was healed. God had mercy on him, although he was sick until he almost died, he did not die due to God's mercy.
Not so, it is you who are reading into the passage. It should be obvious from the Greek that he was already healed.
Why would Paul say the Philippians would rejoice when they saw him, if he was still very sick?
28....................... that having seen him again, you may rejoice,
Once you understand that, you will realize why the KJV translators used the English word "carefully" instead of your choice of word.
You obviously like the KJV because it's the one and only translation that supports your cessationist world view. Even the New King James corrects that bad translation from "carefully" to "eagerly" as per the majority of translations.
He has not recovered yet, that is why Paul had to send him more carefully.
The lack of logic here is quite astonishing. According to you, the man is still sick, yet Paul chooses to send him on a 2000km journey through mountainous and dangerous country. A journey that for a fit man is around 40 days hard work.
Now I understand you will prefer not to accept the KJV translators choice of word and stick to your own interpretation.

But I felt it was so interesting that you would rather use the NIV translation of that verse and actually call that an "accurate translation". Out of curiosity, do you worship in a Methodist Church?
An amusing but pointless insult. If I was a Methodist, I'd be on your side of the debate.
As for the NIV, my preferred bible is the KJV, but when it comes to online stuff, I use Biblehub which gives the Greek, which if you cared to check, you'd see that the KJV is completely wrong.
 
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Guojing

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Not so, it is you who are reading into the passage. It should be obvious from the Greek that he was already healed.
Why would Paul say the Philippians would rejoice when they saw him, if he was still very sick?
28....................... that having seen him again, you may rejoice,

You obviously like the KJV because it's the one and only translation that supports your cessationist world view. Even the New King James corrects that bad translation from "carefully" to "eagerly" as per the majority of translations.

The lack of logic here is quite astonishing. According to you, the man is still sick, yet Paul chooses to send him on a 2000km journey through mountainous and dangerous country. A journey that for a fit man is around 40 days hard work.

An amusing but pointless insult. If I was a Methodist, I'd be on your side of the debate.
As for the NIV, my preferred bible is the KJV, but when it comes to online stuff, I use Biblehub which gives the Greek, which if you cared to check, you'd see that the KJV is completely wrong.

Okay, I understand your determination to believe he had completely recovered. We can agree to disagree

What about the 3rd example, where he left a beloved coworker sick?
 
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Francis Drake

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As for Timothy and the advice to drink wine, since you are a fan of Mark 16:17-19, there are 2 signs given in that passage that you, along with many I have met, prefer to ignore, that of snake handling and drinking deadly poison and not be harmed.
And neither is there any reference in scripture to members of the early church drinking poison, yet you demand that today we present such evidence in order to prove the validity of Mark16!

The 4 things that Jesus mentions, -tongues, deliverance, snakes and poison, are all acts based on our faith.
The firsts 2 are things all Christians should be doing for edification of himself and others, the last 2 are triggered by misfortune, not something any sensible believer would voluntarily practice.
My walk of faith has led me to speak in tongues and cast demons out for 40 years.
I never encounter snakes in the UK, nor would I drink poison to prove a point. Nor does their absence validate your cessationism one iota.
.
 
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Francis Drake

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Okay, I understand your determination to believe he had completely recovered. We can agree to disagree
I cannot understand how you can claim the man was still sick, yet somehow managed to travel 2000km for more than 40 days.
What about the 3rd example, where he left a beloved coworker sick?
I have no clues why, but neither do you, and one sick man is still gives no evidence that the gifts had ceased.

As I mentioned before, you need to explain why Paul or Peter didn't warn the disciples that everything was about to radically change, and vast portions of scripture would become redundant, and all his instructions on assembling together would be irrelevant.

Urgent epistle to all churches, please circulate. This contains Paul's latest update for church services.... ................................................................................................................................................................ oops, sorry, the Holy Spirit didn't tell us that bit.
 
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Francis Drake

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Do you have any views on the Philippians and Timothy scriptures that I have stated to you?

If you don't wish to comment on them, I am fine, just state that clearly. Otherwise, I will wonder why you kept repeating the point on Acts 28 and Luke but ignore those Pauline scriptures.
By Timothy scriptures, do you mean the ones where Paul tells Timothy to stir the gifts up, gifts that you claim had ceased?
1Tim4v4Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
And-
2Tim1v6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

So Timothy, make sure you make full use of the gifts, cos God is gonna steal them back next week!

So @Guojing, when exactly did the gifts get taken away? And why don't we see any warnings, or instructions in scripture of how to handle that event?
 
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Francis Drake

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If you have been following the discussion I was having with others, I am not arguing that "gifts have ceased",
Errr? Yes you have been arguing that the gifts have ceased, that's why you denied we still walked in Mark16, tongues and deliverance!
I am arguing, with scriptural references, that Paul no longer had the specific gift of healing after Acts 28.
How come Paul's theology got turned on its head so suddenly?
Romans11v29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
If the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, then Paul still had the gift of healing.
And yes, Paul was obviously at that point referring to the calling on Israel, but he was drawing on the basic universal fact of the irrevocable nature of God's gifts, and applying it directly to Israel, just as it would apply elsewhere.

The only way the gifts are lost is when men toss them aside, just as Israel did, and just as most of the church does.
 
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topher694

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This discussion keeps going into the same tiresome places that this particular forum was meant to prevent. Silly word games about directly using the word "ceased" or not aside, that HAS been the core of the discussion for several pages now.

The original theme of this thread boils down to this:

How do continuationists respond to the 'closed canon' argument against the continuation of special revelations and sign gifts?

The answer to this question has been born out in the pages and pages of cease/non cease talk that should never have happened. The answer is you don't argue it, you follow the fruit. What do you do when both sides are pointing to scripture and both sides feel they have a good argument... you follow the fruit. That is how Jesus told us we could discern the true from the false, not through a better argument, but through better fruit.

In my experience the fruit of cessationists, or, those who make cessation type arguments without using the phrase, is always bad. Often it devolves to name calling, just as we've seen here. Stubbornness and manipulation, just as we've seen here. "Gotcha" word games, just as we've seen here. An abundance of pride, just as we've seen here. And often these things stem from a lack of self-control, as we've seen in abundance here. But most of all the bad fruit of this mindset is that it - by it's very nature - MUST steal glory from God. In order for cessationist concepts to be true it HAS to explain away, discredit or diminish miracles & healings that God did, which by extension, steals glory from God and instead gives that glory to the "argument" of man.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. They are the fruit of the Spirit because they represent the character of God. So does it fit into these characteristics for God to give a good gift that can accomplish good things and then snatch it away? That's not very kind or loving. The Bible says the gifts and callings of God cannot be revoked, cannot be taken away... yet that's exactly what the cessationist argument is, that goes against the nature of the word "peace/shalom" and it would make God a liar, which would mean He isn't very faithful.

No, the gifts haven't ceased, it's just that a large portion of the church has ceased to take them seriously let alone pursue them.
 
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Guojing

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Errr? Yes you have been arguing that the gifts have ceased, that's why you denied we still walked in Mark16, tongues and deliverance!

How come Paul's theology got turned on its head so suddenly?
Romans11v29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
If the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, then Paul still had the gift of healing.

And yes, Paul was obviously at that point referring to the calling on Israel, but he was drawing on the basic universal fact of the irrevocable nature of God's gifts, and applying it directly to Israel, just as it would apply elsewhere.

The only way the gifts are lost is when men toss them aside, just as Israel did, and just as most of the church does.

Wow, nice usage of Romans 11:29 out of its context. I especially like your reasoning "If the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, then Paul still had the gift of healing."

As for Mark 16, as I said in the Timothy drinking wine post, interestingly, I notice that you again only mention the tongue speaking and casting out demons.

Do you not realized you quietly denied the 2 gifts of snake handling and drinking any deadly thing and not be harmed?
 
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Guojing

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By Timothy scriptures, do you mean the ones where Paul tells Timothy to stir the gifts up, gifts that you claim had ceased?
1Tim4v4Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
And-
2Tim1v6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

So Timothy, make sure you make full use of the gifts, cos God is gonna steal them back next week!

So @Guojing, when exactly did the gifts get taken away? And why don't we see any warnings, or instructions in scripture of how to handle that event?

I was talking about this passage, which you claimed its vague, but the meaning is clear

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
 
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My personal experience with modern day prophets is that they are all false prophets. They think they are a prophet, because they are confused.

Although I think modern day prophets can be possible, I never found evidence for any.

Prophets were exceedingly rare or even non-existent in the world at certain times. Such as during Maccabees. They were unsure about certain things and waited for a prophet to arrive. No prophet seems to have existed during this time. This is why Maccabees is part of Apocrypha, and not part of "Prophets".

Maccabees is history, but not penned by a prophet as far as I know.

But I do believe there will be 2 final prophets as described in Revelation.

As far as gifts of healing and miracles, I certainly believe in this today. I think a lot of people have experienced real miracles. But I think Benny Hinn and those types like him are frauds. Giving true believers a bad name for money.
 
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Guojing

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My personal experience with modern day prophets is that they are all false prophets. They think they are a prophet, because they are confused.

Although I think modern day prophets can be possible, I never found evidence for any.

Prophets were exceedingly rare or even non-existent in the world at certain times. Such as during Maccabees. They were unsure about certain things and waited for a prophet to arrive. No prophet seems to have existed during this time. This is why Maccabees is part of Apocrypha, and not part of "Prophets".

Maccabees is history, but not penned by a prophet as far as I know.

But I do believe there will be 2 final prophets as described in Revelation.

As far as gifts of healing and miracles, I certainly believe in this today. I think a lot of people have experienced real miracles. But I think Benny Hinn and those types like him are frauds. Giving true believers a bad name for money.

I will be interested to know what you think of the numerous prophecies uttered by the "modern day prophets" that Donald Trump would retain his presidency in 2021.

You may find this interesting too

Charismatics issue ‘prophetic standards’ to address false Trump prophecies
 
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topher694

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My personal experience with modern day prophets is that they are all false prophets. They think they are a prophet, because they are confused.
Good news. They are not all false, there are authentic prophets today and they are not super rare either.
 
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Francis Drake

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Wow, nice usage of Romans 11:29 out of its context. I especially like your reasoning "If the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, then Paul still had the gift of healing."
No, it is not in the least bit out of context. Up to that point, Paul had been explaining the prognosis for Israel, based on one absolute principle as stated in v29.
Rom11v28For as regards the gospel, they are enemies on account of you; but as regards election, beloved on account of the patriarchs. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
And that absolute principle is that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. Period.
He is applying a universal truth, to the current argument, Israel's future.
If v29 wasn't an absolute immutable truth, then your and my eternal destiny is very much at risk.
As for Mark 16, as I said in the Timothy drinking wine post, interestingly, I notice that you again only mention the tongue speaking and casting out demons.

Do you not realized you quietly denied the 2 gifts of snake handling and drinking any deadly thing and not be harmed?
Nonsense, I did no such thing.
It is quite apparent that you do not understand how the gifts work, or are distributed in the body.
As I stated, all the gifts operate by faith, that's why Paul challenges us to reach for the higher gifts.
I have never needed faith to handle snakes or drink poison, why should I, and why should I seek them?
Along with many other spirit filled believers, for many decades I have moved in other areas like tongues, prophecy, revelation discernment, casting demons out etc.
In some of those areas, I am strong, in some I am weak.
My wife is excellent in interpretation of tongues, I rarely make the grade for that. But in no way does my lack in the gift of interpretation, make invalid the other gifts.
 
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This discussion keeps going into the same tiresome places that this particular forum was meant to prevent. Silly word games about directly using the word "ceased" or not aside, that HAS been the core of the discussion for several pages now.

The original theme of this thread boils down to this:



The answer to this question has been born out in the pages and pages of cease/non cease talk that should never have happened. The answer is you don't argue it, you follow the fruit. What do you do when both sides are pointing to scripture and both sides feel they have a good argument... you follow the fruit. That is how Jesus told us we could discern the true from the false, not through a better argument, but through better fruit.

In my experience the fruit of cessationists, or, those who make cessation type arguments without using the phrase, is always bad. Often it devolves to name calling, just as we've seen here. Stubbornness and manipulation, just as we've seen here. "Gotcha" word games, just as we've seen here. An abundance of pride, just as we've seen here. And often these things stem from a lack of self-control, as we've seen in abundance here. But most of all the bad fruit of this mindset is that it - by it's very nature - MUST steal glory from God. In order for cessationist concepts to be true it HAS to explain away, discredit or diminish miracles & healings that God did, which by extension, steals glory from God and instead gives that glory to the "argument" of man.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. They are the fruit of the Spirit because they represent the character of God. So does it fit into these characteristics for God to give a good gift that can accomplish good things and then snatch it away? That's not very kind or loving. The Bible says the gifts and callings of God cannot be revoked, cannot be taken away... yet that's exactly what the cessationist argument is, that goes against the nature of the word "peace/shalom" and it would make God a liar, which would mean He isn't very faithful.

No, the gifts haven't ceased, it's just that a large portion of the church has ceased to take them seriously let alone pursue them.
While it is quite true that the spiritual gifts did decline and ceased in the established church after the 4th Century, and this is shown through Church history, the controversy are the divergent views on why they ceased. If we read Church history, and the writings of the Church fathers, we get the distinct impression that the gifts declined because the level of commitment to Christ and the walking in holiness before the Lord declined, and the free ministry of the Holy Spirit was replaced by the administration and authority of the bishops. Because of the Arianism, Gnosticism, and Doetism heresies rampant in the Church, an educated clergy was instituted to give "sound doctrinal teaching", and therefore, church members had less and less opportunity to share in services. Also, as the Church went into formalism, programme liturgical services, and ritual, the free input of the Holy Spirit through rank and file members declined and ceased, resulting in the "one man band" type of church ministry we have right to our present day.

An example of formalism, ceremony and ritual is how the Lord's Supper, which was a fellowship meal in the early church, developed into the "Lord's snack" consisting of a wafer or small square of bread and a small shot glass of grape juice or wine. Jesus' instruction, "As often as you eat together, remember my death until I come" changed into "as often as you have this small square of bread and a sip of grape juice, remember", etc. The original Lord's supper observance was informal and the only thing that was said was, "we remember the Lord's death until He comes", and everyone would say "amen", and then they would enjoy the meal.

Prophecy was replaced by the priest's homily. Tongues were ridiculed. Healing became "divine unction" for someone at the point of death. Words of knowledge, wisdom, discerning of spirits became man's knowledge, wisdom and discernment. Faith was changed into faith in the "mother church and the Pope". Revelation became new doctrine the pope dreamed up, and miracles became the silly "miracles" such as bleeding statues, apparitions of Mary, stigmata, and other "supernatural" occurrences that had nothing to do with the type of signs and wonders that characterised Paul's preaching of the Gospel.

All this can be gained by just reading Church history and the writings of the church fathers.

The cessationist doctrine arose in the Reformed theology, initially in response to claims of Roman Catholic miracles. Writing in 1918, Benjamin Warfield, a Presbyterian theologian, reasserted the view that the gifts ceased with the death of the last of the apostles, arguing that only the apostles could confer the gifts upon other Christians.

The problem with Warfield's cessationist doctrine is that he could not quote any Scriptural reference to back up his claim. This is the paradox that exists with Reformed doctrine. Those in the Reformed movement (mainly Calvinist) depend on Sola Scriptura, in that everything has to be tested by the written Scriptures. Yet, they are adamant that the spiritual gifts ceased when the last Apostle died, without any direct Scripture to validate that dependence. Therefore, it seems that the Calvinists, and Warfield say that everything must be soundly proved by Scripture, except the doctrine of Cessationism which they imply that the doctrine is true in spite of the silence of Scripture on it. This seems to me to be a two-faced approach to their view of doctrine, that they can ignore the silence of Scripture when it suits them to promulgate a doctrine that they are committed to.
 
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topher694

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While it is quite true that the spiritual gifts did decline and ceased in the established church after the 4th Century, and this is shown through Church history, the controversy are the divergent views on why they ceased. If we read Church history, and the writings of the Church fathers, we get the distinct impression that the gifts declined because the level of commitment to Christ and the walking in holiness before the Lord declined, and the free ministry of the Holy Spirit was replaced by the administration and authority of the bishops. Because of the Arianism, Gnosticism, and Doetism heresies rampant in the Church, an educated clergy was instituted to give "sound doctrinal teaching", and therefore, church members had less and less opportunity to share in services. Also, as the Church went into formalism, programme liturgical services, and ritual, the free input of the Holy Spirit through rank and file members declined and ceased, resulting in the "one man band" type of church ministry we have right to our present day.

An example of formalism, ceremony and ritual is how the Lord's Supper, which was a fellowship meal in the early church, developed into the "Lord's snack" consisting of a wafer or small square of bread and a small shot glass of grape juice or wine. Jesus' instruction, "As often as you eat together, remember my death until I come" changed into "as often as you have this small square of bread and a sip of grape juice, remember", etc. The original Lord's supper observance was informal and the only thing that was said was, "we remember the Lord's death until He comes", and everyone would say "amen", and then they would enjoy the meal.

Prophecy was replaced by the priest's homily. Tongues were ridiculed. Healing became "divine unction" for someone at the point of death. Words of knowledge, wisdom, discerning of spirits became man's knowledge, wisdom and discernment. Faith was changed into faith in the "mother church and the Pope". Revelation became new doctrine the pope dreamed up, and miracles became the silly "miracles" such as bleeding statues, apparitions of Mary, stigmata, and other "supernatural" occurrences that had nothing to do with the type of signs and wonders that characterised Paul's preaching of the Gospel.

All this can be gained by just reading Church history and the writings of the church fathers.

The cessationist doctrine arose in the Reformed theology, initially in response to claims of Roman Catholic miracles. Writing in 1918, Benjamin Warfield, a Presbyterian theologian, reasserted the view that the gifts ceased with the death of the last of the apostles, arguing that only the apostles could confer the gifts upon other Christians.

The problem with Warfield's cessationist doctrine is that he could not quote any Scriptural reference to back up his claim. This is the paradox that exists with Reformed doctrine. Those in the Reformed movement (mainly Calvinist) depend on Sola Scriptura, in that everything has to be tested by the written Scriptures. Yet, they are adamant that the spiritual gifts ceased when the last Apostle died, without any direct Scripture to validate that dependence. Therefore, it seems that the Calvinists, and Warfield say that everything must be soundly proved by Scripture, except the doctrine of Cessationism which they imply that the doctrine is true in spite of the silence of Scripture on it. This seems to me to be a two-faced approach to their view of doctrine, that they can ignore the silence of Scripture when it suits them to promulgate a doctrine that they are committed to.
The reason there are divergent views is that we do not know for certain what caused the decrease, though I strongly lean towards what you outlined. At least that it played a major part in it.

I am intrigued by the fellowship meal you mentioned to celebrate the Lord's Supper. Do you have any materials you could point me to that talk more about that? I think it would be a wonderful thing to teach about then do with my church family.

As for the reasons behind cessationism, I've got my own theories about what caused it that are less to do with the historical side and center more around the heart and mindset that likely influenced it.
 
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The reason there are divergent views is that we do not know for certain what caused the decrease, though I strongly lean towards what you outlined. At least that it played a major part in it.

I am intrigued by the fellowship meal you mentioned to celebrate the Lord's Supper. Do you have any materials you could point me to that talk more about that? I think it would be a wonderful thing to teach about then do with my church family.

As for the reasons behind cessationism, I've got my own theories about what caused it that are less to do with the historical side and center more around the heart and mindset that likely influenced it.
The clue is in Paul's account of the Lord's Supper in 1 Corinthians 11. He says that some of the rich were gluttons with the result that many of the poor didn't get enough to eat, and others were getting drunk on the wine. This suggests more of a fellowship "pot luck" type meal where the rich members contributed more than the poor ones, and therefore thought they didn't have to share their contribution with the poor. This is why Paul says if people want to have a "food fest", they could do it at home and not in a collective meal involving the church members.

So my point is that it is very difficult to be a glutton over a small square of bread or a wafer, and to get drunk from a small shot glass of grape juice. The original supper that the Lord had with His disciples was a full meal, not just a snack involving a couple of loaves of bread and a couple of cups of wine. Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of the Lord's supper looks like a group photo with everyone on the one side of the table. Traditional, but quite unlike the real setting and meal.
 
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topher694

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The clue is in Paul's account of the Lord's Supper in 1 Corinthians 11. He says that some of the rich were gluttons with the result that many of the poor didn't get enough to eat, and others were getting drunk on the wine. This suggests more of a fellowship "pot luck" type meal where the rich members contributed more than the poor ones, and therefore thought they didn't have to share their contribution with the poor. This is why Paul says if people want to have a "food fest", they could do it at home and not in a collective meal involving the church members.

So my point is that it is very difficult to be a glutton over a small square of bread or a wafer, and to get drunk from a small shot glass of grape juice. The original supper that the Lord had with His disciples was a full meal, not just a snack involving a couple of loaves of bread and a couple of cups of wine. Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of the Lord's supper looks like a group photo with everyone on the one side of the table. Traditional, but quite unlike the real setting and meal.
Ah, I see. It seems as though it may have been an evolution of the Passover feast. Leave it to the Corinthians to mess it up for everyone else.
 
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Ah, I see. It seems as though it may have been an evolution of the Passover feast. Leave it to the Corinthians to mess it up for everyone else.
We still do "Dinner on the Grounds" on the third Thursday of every month ... the First Century Church would probably feel right at home. :)
 
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Ah, I see. It seems as though it may have been an evolution of the Passover feast. Leave it to the Corinthians to mess it up for everyone else.
It is interesting that Jesus said, "As often as you meet together, remember My death until I come." The only reference to the Lord's Supper in the church is in 1 Corinthians, and it seems that Paul was talking about a fellowship meal where everyone contributed. I wonder if Jesus meant that we remember His death every time we meet together, regardless if we have a meal or not. Perhaps the ceremony of Communion or Eucharist as we know it was not something that Jesus meant at all! Perhaps it is just a man-made ceremony born out of church tradition.

It is interesting that the Salvation Army do not have Communion Services, because the church in the late 1800s used wine and they decided that because of the number of alcoholics who got saved, it was too dangerous for them to take just a small sip of wine and have them go back on the bottle and fall away from Christ. Even without the ceremony of communion, the Sallies still won many to Christ and was a very powerful evangelistic organisation in its day, before it evolved into a social oriented organisation. So avoiding the eucharist did not bring a curse upon them. They obviously remembered the Lord's death in other good ways that suited them and the Lord.

So, is the Communion, or Eucharist ceremony really that important? Could the "watered down" ceremony be an actual insult to the Lord's death rather than a heart-felt memorial?
 
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