Researching for Appologetics got me all Freaked Out

Jair Crawford

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First of all, I apologize if this is in the wrong place but I was looking for where the best place to post would be and this seemed to be the best fit I could find.

I would be a little bit more detailed with my post but I'm on break at work right now so I'll have to keep it short for the time being and elaborate later.

Long story short, I've been digging into scripture and researching as much as I can on scripture and what is being studied of it, for the sake of getting to know things about the Word a little better and to also know some of the arguments for and against it, for the purpose of using when talking to some of my friends who are non-believers.

Now, I thought that I was at a place with my faith with the Lord to where I could handle it. To say that the experience so far has been humbling is an understatement. I read things that really freaked me out, and I did not like it.

So, as I have prayed about this (all this happened since about October), I decided I could use as much guidance as I can get. And that's what I am seeking here. That's about as much as I can say at the time as I need to clock back in soon but I will definitely follow up and correspond with any responses.

God Bless!
 
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Andy centek

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First of all, I apologize if this is in the wrong place but I was looking for where the best place to post would be and this seemed to be the best fit I could find.

I would be a little bit more detailed with my post but I'm on break at work right now so I'll have to keep it short for the time being and elaborate later.

Long story short, I've been digging into scripture and researching as much as I can on scripture and what is being studied of it, for the sake of getting to know things about the Word a little better and to also know some of the arguments for and against it, for the purpose of using when talking to some of my friends who are non-believers.

Now, I thought that I was at a place with my faith with the Lord to where I could handle it. To say that the experience so far has been humbling is an understatement. I read things that really freaked me out, and I did not like it.

So, as I have prayed about this (all this happened since about October), I decided I could use as much guidance as I can get. And that's what I am seeking here. That's about as much as I can say at the time as I need to clock back in soon but I will definitely follow up and correspond with any responses.

God Bless!
 
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Andy centek

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Jair Crawford:
Welcome. I am rather new hear also. I am not new however at the study of scriptures of the Bible And Gnositic writings as well.
I certainly would be willing to help you, God be willing.
You can post here o.k.
Please let me know if you have something in particular to discuss. Otherwise we can start where ever. There are many things in the study of Bible scripturtes that many never become aware of. I have been at it now for over 50 years. That did not make me knowledgeable, it was when I let the Holy Spirit guide me rather than men. The are no Denominations in the Bible scriptures,just one path, that of following the teachings whivh the Holy Spirit sat in place and what Jesus and his disciples taught. Man can lead one astray easily if one does not search for themselves.

Blessings
Andy Centek
 
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2PhiloVoid

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First of all, I apologize if this is in the wrong place but I was looking for where the best place to post would be and this seemed to be the best fit I could find.

I would be a little bit more detailed with my post but I'm on break at work right now so I'll have to keep it short for the time being and elaborate later.

Long story short, I've been digging into scripture and researching as much as I can on scripture and what is being studied of it, for the sake of getting to know things about the Word a little better and to also know some of the arguments for and against it, for the purpose of using when talking to some of my friends who are non-believers.

Now, I thought that I was at a place with my faith with the Lord to where I could handle it. To say that the experience so far has been humbling is an understatement. I read things that really freaked me out, and I did not like it.

So, as I have prayed about this (all this happened since about October), I decided I could use as much guidance as I can get. And that's what I am seeking here. That's about as much as I can say at the time as I need to clock back in soon but I will definitely follow up and correspond with any responses.

God Bless!

Hi Jair,

Yes, there can be an initial shock to find out that the Bible may not be impervious to the scrutiny of textual criticism and/or moral reevaluation. But really, I wouldn't let all of this get to you. As I'm sure you'll find out as you learn more---in a more thorough and balanced way---that faith in Christ isn't a lost cause. It's just that some of the things that more stringent evangelical Christians teach as 'truth' may or may not be exactly as they have claimed. And that's ok. Jesus is still Lord. And it might just be that some of the things skeptics have claimed aren't exactly as they've said ... either.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Mountainmike

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Apologetics is more often a word used to describe the process of persuading that a particular Christian denomination or doctrinal system is correct, rather than other competing different systems, For which purpose interpretation of scripture is critical.

Evangelisation is a word more often used for persuasion of others away from atheism or other religious systems towards Christianity, which appears to be your intention, if I understood it.

The problem is that you cannot in essence use the content of scripture for evangelisation when dealing with those who neither accept existence God nor therefore the veracity of scripture, until you first establish the validity of God and scripture!

So more important arguments for evangelisation are those for existence of God and against the all too pervasive scientific relativism or god of the gaps for example , or validation of the historic Jesus are more relevant to that task than scripture.

Or in business speak, marketing is the process of taking them from where their thought processes presently are to where you want them to be. It is a wholly different problem persuading someone to buy life insurance at all, from persuading those who already accept that , to buying a specific policy.

And it is a far different task to persuade a cult adherent, such as a Mormon or JW to mainstream Christianity, than say a Calvinist to catholic, or vice versa.

Whilst I applaud your efforts I think you need to decide which of the ponds you wish to fish in, and which fish you hope to catch, before equipping to fish for those!

Of course all self development is good! As is all study of scripture. So good for you! . But the tasks of evangelisation and different types of apologetics have very specific toolkits.

First of all, I apologize if this is in the wrong place but I was looking for where the best place to post would be and this seemed to be the best fit I could find.

I would be a little bit more detailed with my post but I'm on break at work right now so I'll have to keep it short for the time being and elaborate later.

Long story short, I've been digging into scripture and researching as much as I can on scripture and what is being studied of it, for the sake of getting to know things about the Word a little better and to also know some of the arguments for and against it, for the purpose of using when talking to some of my friends who are non-believers.

Now, I thought that I was at a place with my faith with the Lord to where I could handle it. To say that the experience so far has been humbling is an understatement. I read things that really freaked me out, and I did not like it.

So, as I have prayed about this (all this happened since about October), I decided I could use as much guidance as I can get. And that's what I am seeking here. That's about as much as I can say at the time as I need to clock back in soon but I will definitely follow up and correspond with any responses.

God Bless!
 
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Tolworth John

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the experience so far has been humbling is an understatement. I read things that really freaked me out, and I did not like it.

It depends who you are reading and what you are reading.

May I suggest you start with popular apologetics like Lee Strobel's the case for Christ, or the web site coldcasechristianity.
It might if you research Sir William Michael Ramsay an acheologist who dug up many of the middle eastern cities mentioned in Acts and whose conclusion was that Luke was a historian who was always accurate.

Learn how reliable and accurate the bible is and go from there.
 
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Mountainmike

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It depends who you are reading and what you are reading.

May I suggest you start with popular apologetics like Lee Strobel's the case for Christ, or the web site coldcasechristianity.
It might if you research Sir William Michael Ramsay an acheologist who dug up many of the middle eastern cities mentioned in Acts and whose conclusion was that Luke was a historian who was always accurate.

Learn how reliable and accurate the bible is and go from there.


Btw , I think it is William Mitchell Ramsay.... Michael confuses Amazon!

There is also a fascinating book by Hesseman on Mary of Nazareth, that traces archeological evidence for the movements and living places of the holy family, including into Egypt, which not only confirm the stories of Luke but also in part backs the ( non canonical) protoevangelium of James.
 
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~Anastasia~

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First of all, I apologize if this is in the wrong place but I was looking for where the best place to post would be and this seemed to be the best fit I could find.

I would be a little bit more detailed with my post but I'm on break at work right now so I'll have to keep it short for the time being and elaborate later.

Long story short, I've been digging into scripture and researching as much as I can on scripture and what is being studied of it, for the sake of getting to know things about the Word a little better and to also know some of the arguments for and against it, for the purpose of using when talking to some of my friends who are non-believers.

Now, I thought that I was at a place with my faith with the Lord to where I could handle it. To say that the experience so far has been humbling is an understatement. I read things that really freaked me out, and I did not like it.

So, as I have prayed about this (all this happened since about October), I decided I could use as much guidance as I can get. And that's what I am seeking here. That's about as much as I can say at the time as I need to clock back in soon but I will definitely follow up and correspond with any responses.

God Bless!

Hello, and welcome to CF!

Since you don't mention exactly what it is that disturbed you, I can't address it. But I know that when I first started digging into it there were things that I learned that initially disturbed me too. I grew up being taught of this perfectly preserved, perfectly delivered, infallible Word of God ... and the truth is that the beginnings of it (and in some cases what has happened since) was actually a bit rocky.

What I have ultimately learned, however, is that the Apostles didn't establish a Book - they established a Body. And that Body existed and grew and flourished and worshipped for decades before the first word of NT Scripture was penned. It was their learning and recognition of Truth they had received that eventually led to the selection of Scripture AS Scripture. (There were as many forgeries and spurious documents circulating as well.)

When questions come up of things like an addition to the original text ... if the early Church accepted it, it would have been true to the faith anyway, and such as that.

Later textual analysis that fails to take into account that there were definitely heresies circulating and is willing to accept any document based on age can be misleading. There were some teaching error very early on. A writing being ancient doesn't automatically give it authority. What was accepted by the Body is what had authority, because they had been well-taught by the Apostles and those men they entrusted after them.

If you have specific questions, you might come over to The Ancient Way here on CF. The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox Some of our members have detailed knowledge of the history and reception of various documents because they are part of the repository of the Orthodox Church. Though again, I'm not sure which issues have distressed you.

Everything has a solid answer though. We just have to keep looking within knowledgeable sources and find it. The purpose of some is to confuse and sow doubt. Best not to let them get a deep hold on us.

God be with you. And again, welcome to CF!
 
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Jair Crawford

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Hi guys and thanks everyone for your responses. You along with some friends of mine have been a great help so far.

My main concern with the NT is the allegation that some of Jesus' words were 'modified' by the early church. Now, there is no hard evidence for that, so it's not an extreme issue, and ironically, not what's been bothering me the most.

What's been getting to me is what I've been reading up on ancient Israel, Canaan, and developments in archaeology in the Levant in general. They are fascinating but they throw many things into question.

Theories like, El Shaddai being evolved from El the head of the Canaanite pagan pantheon, etc.
 
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Hi guys and thanks everyone for your responses. You along with some friends of mine have been a great help so far.

My main concern with the NT is the allegation that some of Jesus' words were 'modified' by the early church. Now, there is no hard evidence for that, so it's not an extreme issue, and ironically, not what's been bothering me the most.

What's been getting to me is what I've been reading up on ancient Israel, Canaan, and developments in archaeology in the Levant in general. They are fascinating but they throw many things into question.

Theories like, El Shaddai being evolved from El the head of the Canaanite pagan pantheon, etc.
This is just a general answer, and this topic isn't one I have overly concerned myself with. I'm no expert. :)

But as to Jesus' words being "modified" by the Early Church, if the implication is that they were intentionally changed to mean something else --- well, if you read some history and what the Church was like then ... they were intensely holding fast to the exactness of the Gospel. Very small deviations were strenuously opposed. More importantly, people DIED ... almost all were martyred and this continued beyond just the Apostles but with the overseers they appointed and so on. Read about the early martyrs, why they died, what they wrote. Absolute fidelity to the Gospel was usually the cause. And they died expressing love for the faithful, the desire that they forgive those who persecuted them, and faithfulness to the Gospel. And as doctrines began to be solidified, controversies arose over the most minuscule deviations. Not only that but it was never in the hands of one. There was a group of men from the beginning, who all knew the truth.

What I'm trying to say, is that if you can imagine what things were obviously like at that time, as evidenced by the documents we do have - the charge that a group of men who had witnessed Christ resurrecting from the dead and all those miracles, and who willingly died rather than betray the truth - would collaborate to change the Gospel. And the same was true of their followers. Not only that, but truth was necessarily kept by ALL when the Church was being established, because for some time there was no written NT Scripture. And there is a sort of guideline within the early Church which survives with us today - that we recognize Truth as being what was believed since the beginning, in all of the Church, everywhere, by all of the people (back then there were no denominations). Anything else was condemned as heresy. It is incredibly resistant to change.

Now, I know that's not your biggest concern. And I'm no expert on OT history or language, etc. But I expect there's a good answer for your question. What I have learned though is that there are MANY scholars who subtly attack the Scriptures from hundreds of angles. It would be impossible within a lifetime to search out enough to refute them all. They can undermine your faith. But two things - I'm sure if you seek you can find answers against whatever concerns you so far, if you have given it a level of authority in your mind (which you might want to question if it's reasonable even to have done so), and secondly, again some in the early Church knew well the history and so on, so if it affects the Gospel they are a trusted source.

At the risk of further complicating things for you ... when considering the OT ... the accepted OT in Hebrew is of much later dating. Jesus and the Apostles actually quoted the Septuagint, which was a Greek translation, and that was the accepted OT at their time. If you read translations of the Septuagint into English, there are differences in places. I'm just working through it myself. But some troubling passages make more sense when searched from there.

If you have particular questions that still trouble you though, I'm sure we can help you find answers.

I'd be very careful of modern "scholars" though. There is probably not much they haven't attacked in the Scriptures, however subtly. Quite a bit of it creeps into many seminaries too. I'm not advocating burying your head in the sand and abandoning reason. But don't let false reason that sounds good overwhelm you. I've learned from my own searching enough to confidently believe that the answers are out there. :)
 
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FireDragon76

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Hi guys and thanks everyone for your responses. You along with some friends of mine have been a great help so far.

My main concern with the NT is the allegation that some of Jesus' words were 'modified' by the early church. Now, there is no hard evidence for that, so it's not an extreme issue, and ironically, not what's been bothering me the most.

How they remembered Jesus' words was shaped by the religious communities they found themselves in. At any rate, I do not see this as a threat to my faith, but my faith does not require absolute precision.

What's been getting to me is what I've been reading up on ancient Israel, Canaan, and developments in archaeology in the Levant in general. They are fascinating but they throw many things into question.

Theories like, El Shaddai being evolved from El the head of the Canaanite pagan pantheon, etc.

That the conceptualization of God has developed is not all that controversial in mainline Protestant and Catholic scholarly circles. It's generally accepted as the best explanation.
 
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Jair Crawford

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How they remembered Jesus' words was shaped by the religious communities they found themselves in. At any rate, I do not see this as a threat to my faith, but my faith does not require absolute precision.



That the conceptualization of God has developed is not all that controversial in mainline Protestant and Catholic scholarly circles. It's generally accepted as the best explanation.

I was getting that, but we can run into some potential problems. I was coming to grips with that idea until I started reading theories that Jewish sacrifice (and therefore by proxy Jesus' sacrifice) evolved from a more ancient practice of sacrificing the firstborn in the fire, and then finding archaeological evidence of such findings near Jerusalem very similar to those found near Carthage, it literally made me feel sick. For me, that's taking things too far and my spirit just can't come to grips with that being a possibility, so I will stick to the traditional view that the only time such behavior occurred was in idol worship. But, I feel it could be beneficial to discuss these topics with some of y'all who are versed in them.
 
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