Researchers Analyze 50 Years of Spanking Studies

[zephyrWiccan]

I tied two different quotes, and nothing else - which was a banter between two other posters. I was referencing the quotes only. You see the quotes were the context.

It was not banter. It was one poster responding to the other one's attempt to disparage my religion.

Additional context?

The fact that I brought up my friend that does exit cult stuff - and mentioned what her clients state? THEN went on to mention each individual has their own circumstance and feelings about what is worse? Studies can't define that for them. How we need to respect both points of view, and how studies can't define that for individuals that lived them.

All that is context.

You jumped to conclusions, and made assumptions about me and what I said. The last part of the sentence still rings true - you can't tell a person who experiences things which aspect of their experience is worse. Your not them. I'm not them. Some study isn't them either.

I'm sorry but I'm not the only one who took your post as calling paganism/wiccanism a cult. That's the clear implication, especially with you yourelf mentioning practices of my religion in your own words in your post.

If you didn't mean to do so, fine. But you did, whether through not paying attention or not.

 

[Hetta]

The Romans were of course total softies when it came to corporal and capital punishment and their armies were undisciplined rabbles!!!!!

Or maybe not

So all those hundreds of years that corporal and capital punishment was the norm across the world, did the world turn out "armies" of well behaved children? You don't need to answer that, because the history books tell otherwise.

 

[Hetta]

Google government websites and they will cite poverty, drug and alcohol abuse as major causes of crime. But most interestingly for those who support the Norwegian policy of kidnapping spanked children is the view that family breakdown is a major cause of crime. It is children without fathers who end up committing crimes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-nine-times-more-likely-to-commit-crimes.html

https://unitedfamiliesinternational.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/fatherlessness-poverty-and-crime/

Did you read what you linked? Firstly, blogs aren't reliable sources for anyone to cite, and the Telegraph sources is a politician giving his opinion. Try again. Try for some peer reviewed sources. And no, I won't do you work for you by Googling. CF needs to put it in their rules that those who make the claims need to cite the sources.

 

[Cearbhall]

The Romans were of course total softies when it came to corporal and capital punishment and their armies were undisciplined rabbles!!!!!

Or maybe not

I'm not aiming to raise ancient soldiers...

 

[Hetta]

No of course not. The Spartans were barbarians compared to the Athenians. But there is a lesson in the fact that their extreme discipline allowed them to dominate more civilised cultures.

And is "dominating more civilized cultures" (assuming you can find one anywhere n the world), what we are training our kids to do these days?

 

[Hetta]

I'm not aiming to raise ancient soldiers...

Right.

This all seems to come from the same school of thought where were parents are encouraged to break the spirit of their child/ren.

 

[Sistrin]

Really? So you have conclusive evidence that modern wicca teachings have lasting negative effects?

All occult practice has negative effects. I have previously posted at length concerning this. However here is another study written by Don Rimer, a thirty three year veteran of the Virginia Beach Police Department and a man I know personally. Or you can read the background work of Sandi Gallant of the San Francisco Police Department. Or notes from the FBI. Or just look around the web.

And not just old biases based on your faith that heaven and hell are real?

My biases are based on real world experience and honest evaluation of the plethora of available facts.

I realize you may believe that zephyrWiccan is worshipping satan...

That is clever, Cadet, but it isn't what I said.

...but she doesn't believe that, and if you had actual decent evidence of that... Well, we wouldn't still be arguing about which religion was right, would we?

What she may believe is irrelevant to my point. Wicca, satanism, the temple of set, santeria, the Saturn Death Cult, all draw their power and inspiration from the same source. Wiccans mollify themselves with the belief they are communing with nature or engaging in so called "white magic," but the horned god is the horned god, regardless of how he may be pictured. Neo-pagan belief evolved from the earliest of man's primitive religions. Again the nature-oriented aspect of pagan belief is nothing new, and will inevitably lead to the same place.

That's really the clear difference here - we have strong, secular evidence that spanking is bad for kids. You have circumstantial, biased, sectarian "evidence" that wicca is bad for kids.

Wicca, the practice of witchcraft, satanism, they all intentionally target the young as a group. Parents who may spank their child spank their child. The actual clear difference is paganism is specifically geared toward the corruption of not only the children of pagans, but everyone else's as well. Did you ever watch American Horror Story? Ever read the Satanic Bible? Or Wiccan Beliefs and Practices? To argue a thing you first have to know it.

The path of standing in front of a table with burning candles?

Like I said, to argue a thing you must first know it. With all due respect your ignorance of this issue is clear.

 

[MehGuy]

You really are formulaic. As clearly stated, I have thousands of years of history on my side. Wicca is nothing new, it is an aspect of the occult which has been in practice for millennium simply given new name. Those here who imply superiority because they oppose spanking in any form, ask yourself if you believe this practice is potentially harmful to children:

This image is from a website dedicated to encouraging parents to involve their children in spell casting rituals and ceremonies, to include the Samhain Ancestor Rite. None of which, I am sure, could ever lead to anything bad.

Wicca is satanism lite:

But hey, lets not worry about the pure corruption of children, lets all be upset that somewhere someone might actually love their children enough to try and instill moral and behavioral value.

I'm sorry, but are pagan cults really much of a problem in this day and age? Lol.

Regardless, throwing slime at a faith is a dangerous game. Some might ask.. why not just go full Richards Dawkins on the topic? Lol.

 

[Sistrin]

Just saw the link. Your police fellow seems to be talking straight out of his butt.

The West Memphis Three were guilty.

 

[The Cadet]

All occult practice has negative effects. I have previously posted at length concerning this. However here is another study written by Don Rimer, a thirty three year veteran of the Virginia Beach Police Department and a man I know personally. Or you can read the background work of Sandi Gallant of the San Francisco Police Department. Or notes from the FBI. Or just look around the web.

Not a single one of those sources speaks of wicca. Whether they have anything to do with what she practices or believes, I don't know, but I somehow doubt it. It's all about satanism, and you can conflate them as much as you want, it doesn't make it accurate or reasonable. Not to mention your "study" is clearly not a scientific review of any kind.

 

[Cearbhall]

The West Memphis Three were guilty.

I highly doubt it.

 

[Sistrin]

Not a single one of those sources speaks of wicca.

From the Rimer study:

"Wicca............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................4"

Before the reports start flying, I haven't personally attacked anyone. ZephyrWiccan is free to practice whatever faith she desires. I am free to comment on that faith.

 

[zephyrWiccan]

The West Memphis Three were guilty.

Can't address the link? And no, they likely weren't.

 

[mindlight]

NO I replied to a completely over the top statement you made. My point was valid, your whole post reeks of the idea that parents know best and are somehow experts and that those without children are ignorant at best.

The truth is that all it takes to be a parent is the inability to control sexual impulses and to not take adequate provisions to prevent pregnancy. Especially among those under 25 or so becoming a parent is a sign of immaturity while remaining childless shows at least some measure of intelligence.

Parents magically know best is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

A parent is more likely to be an expert on his/ her own child than anyone else. Moreover they have a vested interest in succeeding in that relationship.
You are suggesting that there are generic rules about parenting that government officials and experts should set and enforce. Modern education techniques are far more child centric and respectful of the differences between children. You need a personal relationship to be an expert on this or that child. The worst case scenarios that rule the nightmares of the childless and the state should not be allowed to override the hopes and dreams of normal families

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Yea that makes for a good relationship with the father. NOT. It is also poor as far as learning goes because the consequences are separated from the action that caused them.

And yet, I have the best relationship with my father in the world. I have been, and always will be, a daddy's girl, which had NOTHING to do with him spanking me. The fear that I had disappointed my parents was far worse than any physical punishment they bestowed upon me. When my mom uttered those words, there wasn't physical punishment that awaited me.

But nice of you to try and analyze my relationship with my daddy.

I know it is different how we treat adults and children. But I assume you do not want to base your behaviour on the culture you live in, but on the Bible. Therefore, if "the rod" means spanking, then it should mean the same for everyone according to the Bible.

If the rod means spanking for children, then why does the rod not mean that for an adult? I do not think "the rod" means spanking for children. But many seem to think the rod "clearly speaks about spanking" when it comes to children - although they agree that it means something else for adults. Somebody needs to explain to me why the same word in the Bible means different things to different people. How can the same word mean spanking for children (Proverbs 23) and comfort to adults (Psalm 23)? In my world, comfort and spanking are two very different things

I suspect those who says the rod = spanking - are more led by the dominant culture they live in, than by the Bible. Since they already think spanking is OK, they read their own culture into Bible verses that speaks about "the rod" in connection with children. However, they read something different into Bible verses where "the rod" is connected to adults. This is not good exegesis

As I pointed out, 1 Cor 13 talks about how as a child I did things differently and as an adult I do things differently. So it goes with discipline. I'm sorry you don't want to understand that.

The "culture" around these parts is that spanking is BAD and is abusive, as has been pointed out here in this very thread. Countries have made it illegal, even! So no, it is not culture that leads me to spank my children.

Well, while we are on the subject of damaging children by making them take part in strange religious rituals...

Can I get a hallelujah?!

The religion bashing stops, on both sides, NOW. If I need to mod hat the thread I will, but I'd rather you guys just cut it out on your own.

 

[Nithavela]

I wish that people would understand between anecdotes or their personal experiences and big, peer-reviewed studies with several tens of thousands of individual cases.

 

[The Cadet]

A parent is more likely to be an expert on his/ her own child than anyone else.

Why? Again, all that is required to be a parent is a sexual encounter with no preventative measures. You could become a mother at 15 because you were raped by your teacher. You could become a mother through a busted condom on a one-night-stand. Why would you assume that any parent is automatically an expert on their own child, let alone the best way to rear them? There's a reason Pedagogy is such a big field - dealing with kids is not simply something you can do flying by the seat of your pants.

Moreover they have a vested interest in succeeding in that relationship.

Unless they don't. Maybe they resent the child for ending their career. Maybe they're overwhelmed by parenthood and don't have a good grasp on it, and react to this fact poorly. Maybe, for whatever reason, they just don't love the kid.

These two claims you repeat here are the basis of an undue respect towards parents. Yeah, most parents are pretty decent. But as this study shows, one of the classic methods of child-rearing, spanking, is actually really harmful. Parents who spank their kids didn't know best. They were just wrong. That used to be most parents, by the way. We give entirely undue respect to parents, when the fact of the matter is, a lot of parents are well-meaning but outright lousy at their jobs, and a lot more parents just straight-up aren't well-meaning. There are a lot of abusive, cold, unhappy parents. There are a lot of parents who think they know best, and then let their children die of easily-treatable illnesses because they thought naturopathy or prayer was the answer. Parents can be idiots. Parents can be cruel or evil. We should not just automatically assume that parents know best!

 

[mindlight]

And is "dominating more civilized cultures" (assuming you can find one anywhere n the world), what we are training our kids to do these days?

If the principles by which a civilisation is governed will ultimately lead to its enslavement by stronger powers , or its self destruction by family breakdown you have to question those principles.

 

[mindlight]

Why? Again, all that is required to be a parent is a sexual encounter with no preventative measures. You could become a mother at 15 because you were raped by your teacher. You could become a mother through a busted condom on a one-night-stand. Why would you assume that any parent is automatically an expert on their own child, let alone the best way to rear them? There's a reason Pedagogy is such a big field - dealing with kids is not simply something you can do flying by the seat of your pants.



Unless they don't. Maybe they resent the child for ending their career. Maybe they're overwhelmed by parenthood and don't have a good grasp on it, and react to this fact poorly. Maybe, for whatever reason, they just don't love the kid.

These two claims you repeat here are the basis of an undue respect towards parents. Yeah, most parents are pretty decent. But as this study shows, one of the classic methods of child-rearing, spanking, is actually really harmful. Parents who spank their kids didn't know best. They were just wrong. That used to be most parents, by the way. We give entirely undue respect to parents, when the fact of the matter is, a lot of parents are well-meaning but outright lousy at their jobs, and a lot more parents just straight-up aren't well-meaning. There are a lot of abusive, cold, unhappy parents. There are a lot of parents who think they know best, and then let their children die of easily-treatable illnesses because they thought naturopathy or prayer was the answer. Parents can be idiots. Parents can be cruel or evil. We should not just automatically assume that parents know best!

Even if I accepted your view that most parents are inept at the "techniques of parenting" it would still not justify state sponsored kidnapping of children by the CPS. Far better to work with the parents to improve their relationship with their kids. Also more fundamental than technique is love for a unique person that is your child. I have discussed mistakes I made with my kids with them and we have both laughed at them and learnt from them. They know that I love them and forgiveness and communication can resolve most of the shortfall between me and some mythical perfect parent. There is no text book on parenting that can fully prepare you for the particular child you father even if you can make some preparations.

 

[Sistrin]

I wish that people would understand between anecdotes or their personal experiences and big, peer-reviewed studies with several tens of thousands of individual cases.

What I wish is those championing this study had actually read it. The link in the OP leads to a two paragraph Newser article about the study, the embedded link of which leads to the one paragraph PsycNet abstract. To read the actual study requires a twelve dollar investment, which I doubt anyone here has paid. At least the Telegraph article included some detail.