Required and Permissible Beliefs in Orthodoxy

[cubus123]

I'm considering Orthodoxy strongly. But I can't get a sense of what I am required and permitted to believe as an Orthodox Christian.

I am sure the following is definitely required:

• Belief in the deposit of faith as set forth through the scriptures, apostles, prophets, and saints; and
• The ecumenical councils, canons, and creeds (All 7),
• The Orthodox Church is the one true Church.

Are these beliefs also required:

• Belief that there is certainly no salvation outside the church;
• Belief that other Christian groups are not Christians.

If these beliefs are permitted, it would be much easier for me to become Orthodox:

• I have a strong sense that some traditional Catholics, Anglicans, and even some Protestants are practicing a near-identical version of the faith. I am personally convinced about the certain but imperfect faith of certain Christians, and I would like to have the freedom to believe that they are generally Christian.
• Some Orthodox laity practice an excessive mysticism that at times veils the clear message of the Gospels.
• It's a shame that I have often sat through an Orthodox "sermon" and haven't heard the words "Christ" or "Jesus."
• The filioque is a canonical crime, and therefore should not be said in the Creed. But it is not necessarily a doctrinal heresy (as taught by many East and Western fathers).
• Penal substitutionary justification.
  

 

[BNR32FAN]

It’s my understanding that the EOC teaches that salvation is possible outside the Orthodox Church and that people outside the Orthodox Church can be Christians. Mind you I’m not an EOC member but I have asked EOC members these questions before.

 

[HTacianas]

I'm considering Orthodoxy strongly. But I can't get a sense of what I am required and permitted to believe as an Orthodox Christian.

I am sure the following is definitely required:

• Belief in the deposit of faith as set forth through the scriptures, apostles, prophets, and saints; and
• The ecumenical councils, canons, and creeds (All 7),
• The Orthodox Church is the one true Church.

Are these beliefs also required:

• Belief that there is certainly no salvation outside the church;
• Belief that other Christian groups are not Christians.

If these beliefs are permitted, it would be much easier for me to become Orthodox:

• I have a strong sense that some traditional Catholics, Anglicans, and even some Protestants are practicing a near-identical version of the faith. I am personally convinced about the certain but imperfect faith of certain Christians, and I would like to have the freedom to believe that they are generally Christian.
• Some Orthodox laity practice an excessive mysticism that at times veils the clear message of the Gospels.
• It's a shame that I have often sat through an Orthodox "sermon" and haven't heard the words "Christ" or "Jesus."
• The filioque is a canonical crime, and therefore should not be said in the Creed. But it is not necessarily a doctrinal heresy (as taught by many East and Western fathers).
• Penal substitutionary justification.

Two things. Orthodoxy generally has no statement as to the salvation of a soul outside of the Church. Outside of the Church is a negative. Most commentaries you'll hear on the matter are positives. The meaning is that there is salvation for souls inside the Church. I read a comment a priest once told someone, "we do not know if there is salvation outside of the Church but your best chance is to be inside the Church".

The filioque is something else. There is theological support for the filioque, but there is no support for adding it to the Creed. Only an Ecumenical Council can change the Creed and there hasn't been one. The Creed has historically only ever been changed in response to heresy. The very first line, "We believe in one God..." was written to refute the heresy of gnosticism that teaches the idea of two gods. The rest of the Creed, line by line, also exist to distinguish Christianity from other ideas.

Can you explain what you mean by "excessive mysticism that at times veils the clear message of the Gospels"?

 

[cubus123]

was written to refute the heresy of gnosticism that teaches the idea of two gods.

Two things. Orthodoxy generally has no statement as to the salvation of a soul outside of the Church. Outside of the Church is a negative. Most commentaries you'll hear on the matter are positives. The meaning is that there is salvation for souls inside the Church. I read a comment a priest once told someone, "we do not know if there is salvation outside of the Church but your best chance is to be inside the Church".

The filioque is something else. There is theological support for the filioque, but there is no support for adding it to the Creed. Only an Ecumenical Council can change the Creed and there hasn't been one. The Creed has historically only ever been changed in response to heresy. The very first line, "We believe in one God..." was written to refute the heresy of gnosticism that teaches the idea of two gods. The rest of the Creed, line by line, also exist to distinguish Christianity from other ideas.

Can you explain what you mean by "excessive mysticism that at times veils the clear message of the Gospels"?

By this I mostly mean miracles (which can be true and spiritually helpful) and stories of saints/prayers (which can be true and spiritually helpful) are emphasized in an unhelpful way above Christ's simple exhortation to "repent and believe."

 

[E.C.]

@HTacianas post describes the salvation in/outside of the Church part succinctly enough.

If these beliefs are permitted, it would be much easier for me to become Orthodox:

• I have a strong sense that some traditional Catholics, Anglicans, and even some Protestants are practicing a near-identical version of the faith. I am personally convinced about the certain but imperfect faith of certain Christians, and I would like to have the freedom to believe that they are generally Christian
• Some Orthodox laity practice an excessive mysticism that at times veils the clear message of the Gospels.
• It's a shame that I have often sat through an Orthodox "sermon" and haven't heard the words "Christ" or "Jesus."
• The filioque is a canonical crime, and therefore should not be said in the Creed. But it is not necessarily a doctrinal heresy (as taught by many East and Western fathers).
• Penal substitutionary justification.

1)
With regards to other Christians groups, the majority of Orthodox would agree that Roman Catholics, Liturgical Protestants (Anglicans and Lutherans), and Reformed Protestants are indeed generally Christian and a part of the overall Christianity. They may theologically be in error, but that doesn't give us license to treat them like dirt for it and unfortunately there are some Orthodox who forget that. A lot of their liturgical practices may seem similar because all Roman Catholics and Protestants ultimately have their roots from the Western Christian tradition.

The main thing to remember is to treat these folks with Christian love and patience; just because they were raised in error and may genuinely believe it to be correct and true does not mean that we treat them like their sub-humans or anything like that. Even groups that are absolutely not Christian, like Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses, we still need to treat with love.


2)
The thing about miracles is that they are reminders of God's presence in the world. With saints, well, I can see how one would see them as a distraction and clouding the Gospel, but they are actually quite the contrary. We are all saints, but not all of us are Saints. Just like how anyone can play any given sport, like baseball, but not everyone is remembered and in the Hall of Fame like Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson. The saints also make some of the Christian life seem doable; sure, we should all strive to be like Christ, but sometimes it seems easier to be more like St Maria Skobtsova or St John of Shanghai. In short, they're our role models.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Belief that there is certainly no salvation outside the church;

yes and no. yes, in that the God as revealed in His Church IS the only one Who saves. however, no in the sense that many who are not Orthodox in this life will die and see Christ as He is at death or Judgment Day, and that is when they will join the Church.

Belief that other Christian groups are not Christians.

they are, as they believe in Christ.

I have a strong sense that some traditional Catholics, Anglicans, and even some Protestants are practicing a near-identical version of the faith. I am personally convinced about the certain but imperfect faith of certain Christians, and I would like to have the freedom to believe that they are generally Christian.

agreed, depending on the individual person.

Some Orthodox laity practice an excessive mysticism that at times veils the clear message of the Gospels.

depends on what you mean here. they certainly can as we all can.

It's a shame that I have often sat through an Orthodox "sermon" and haven't heard the words "Christ" or "Jesus."

agreed.

The filioque is a canonical crime, and therefore should not be said in the Creed. But it is not necessarily a doctrinal heresy (as taught by many East and Western fathers).

depends on what you mean by it. as Rome defined it in the Middle Ages, it is heretical.

Penal substitutionary justification.

depends on what you mean.

 

[rusmeister]

What the others have said.

I think the main thing is to be willing to let the Church, especially in its historical aspect, and what is called the consensus of the fathers, correct your own ideas over time. We all walk into the Church with our own ideas about truth and morality, what is good and right, what Scripture means, etc. And frankly, nearly all of us are wrong about something or other. Like father Matt said, it depends on what you mean regarding PSJ. Some take it to mean an angry God (a la Jonathan Edwards) Who needs to be appeased by blood sacrifice. Some believe that sexual anarchy (sexual arrangements other than the traditional Christian one) is perfectly fine. And so on. We all need to submit ourselves to what we find the Church actually teaches. You’ll meet plenty of messed-up people in the Church, including people who think they don’t need to do that, that “they know better”. And then you have to continue believing in spite of that.

 

[HTacianas]

By this I mostly mean miracles (which can be true and spiritually helpful) and stories of saints/prayers (which can be true and spiritually helpful) are emphasized in an unhelpful way above Christ's simple exhortation to "repent and believe."

To "repent and believe" -and then to be baptized and chrismated- are those things a person does to enter the Church. Afterwards comes life within the Church. All those things Jesus promised, "these things shall follow those that believe...", and then the communion of the saints, miracles, icons, holy relics (see Acts 19:12), are part of the Church.

To a lot of people in modern times, especially among protestants, God seems to exist only within the bible. But within the Church, God exists within the Church. We have the great cloud of witnesses, Heb 12:1, angels among us, Heb 1:14, the promise of Christ himself among us, Matt 18:20. The Church is a spiritual place.

 

[ArmyMatt]

We all need to submit ourselves to what we find the Church actually teaches.

this in a nutshell

 

[ArmyMatt]

To a lot of people in modern times, especially among protestants, God seems to exist only within the bible. But within the Church, God exists within the Church.

and, just for clarity’s sake, this includes the Bible since the Bible was written by and for the Church.

 

[WanderedHome]

I'm considering Orthodoxy strongly. But I can't get a sense of what I am required and permitted to believe as an Orthodox Christian.

I am sure the following is definitely required:

• Belief in the deposit of faith as set forth through the scriptures, apostles, prophets, and saints; and
• The ecumenical councils, canons, and creeds (All 7),
• The Orthodox Church is the one true Church.

Are these beliefs also required:

• Belief that there is certainly no salvation outside the church;
• Belief that other Christian groups are not Christians.

If these beliefs are permitted, it would be much easier for me to become Orthodox:

• I have a strong sense that some traditional Catholics, Anglicans, and even some Protestants are practicing a near-identical version of the faith. I am personally convinced about the certain but imperfect faith of certain Christians, and I would like to have the freedom to believe that they are generally Christian.
• Some Orthodox laity practice an excessive mysticism that at times veils the clear message of the Gospels.
• It's a shame that I have often sat through an Orthodox "sermon" and haven't heard the words "Christ" or "Jesus."
• The filioque is a canonical crime, and therefore should not be said in the Creed. But it is not necessarily a doctrinal heresy (as taught by many East and Western fathers).
• Penal substitutionary justification.

There are some beliefs among the Fathers that are not considered canonical, and therefore not binding, but at the same time have strong connection to some important beliefs and practices in Eastern Orthodoxy. For example, the belief that the "skins" God gave Adam and Eve after the fall were their literal skin, or epidermis. And that sexual intercourse was a result of the Fall. How Man appeared and procreated before the fall, no one can answer. There are varying views on that among the Eastern Orthodox today (it seems most people reject it or entertain it as a novelty), but it is tied to the nature of Man and the purpose of Christ's mission.

 

[cradleGO]

There are excellent answers here but I want to add a few things. As to your last point, Penal substitutionary justification, I am providing a link to a priest that has studied this area, including Protestantism in general/detail. He addresses that theory in this video.

The video is entitled "Western Theories of Atonement". It is by Father Panayiotis Papageorgiou. He is a Cypriot by birth, a scientist by training including research at Notre Dame University, and has been an Orthodox priest for many years. He is now in the Atlanta suburb of Marietta and heads the Holy Transfiguration Church (Greek Orthodox of America, Ecumenical Patriarchate), which has very good YT church services via his YT channel (to view liturgics in action. The psalte [chanter] is excellent, switching from Greek to English and back while in appropriate 'Tone')

Father Panayiotis speaks English quite well but I use the Closed Captioning due to the content and references.

I'll provide two more which he did that are related.

The first is "Salvation & Redemption -- The Early Christian Understanding"

Also, there is this title: "What is the Orthodox Perspective on Original Sin?"

I did view the first listed and have only sampled the other two. If you can invest about 50? minutes, you'll have a full "more than beginners" understanding of this area and can then assess if Orthodoxy is acceptable.

My understanding is that Christ wants humanity to be with Him in the same state as when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden.

As to Other Christians, I heard a priest say in some pertinent context that one cannot restrict the actions of God among humanity. It is clear from a casual view of history that both Catholics and Protestants as well as non-Christians have advanced civilization. Plus in this belief that God cannot be restricted, Orthodoxy investigated Mormonism, for example. At face value what would be the point, but God will be God, so the Church investigated.

Last point. Anyone reading the Gospels knows what Christ wants, what God wants for us. Even if one cannot express the scholarly version of the Divine Desire (my term), a fair minded person should feel it in his/her heart. So something that conflicts with that, one knows that either one has the wrong understanding that it is a conflict, or, that something is wrong. (The whole "prosperity ministry" baloney comes to mind.)

Hope your journey does lead you to Orthodoxy.

 

[IoanC]

I am an orthodox Christian. I have learned that this is God's gift to me, but I am not allowed to say that this should be a truth for other people. For me, orthodoxy is the only truth and salvation. Yet, other people may claim diferently; I am not allowed to disagree with them or impose my faith on them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am an orthodox Christian. I have learned that this is God's gift to me, but I am not allowed to say that this should be a truth for other people. For me, orthodoxy is the only truth and salvation. Yet, other people may claim diferently; I am not allowed to disagree with them or impose my faith on them.

why are you not allowed to disagree with others?

 

[IoanC]

I meant that it is not my place to tell others what to do or what to believe. Orthodoxy is generally explained as the only way to be saved which is harsh. Orthodoxy is the only true faith for those who are orthodox, not for people of different beliefs, in my opinion.

 

[rusmeister]

I meant that it is not my place to tell others what to do or what to believe. Orthodoxy is generally explained as the only way to be saved which is harsh. Orthodoxy is the only true faith for those who are orthodox, not for people of different beliefs, in my opinion.

So, you don’t really hold Orthodox thinking, but actually relativist thought. If you think Orthodoxy is only true for those who like it, or choose to believe it, you have not yet come to Orthodoxy. It is possible to have been baptized,to attemd church, and still be far from the mind of the Church. This is a prime example of bringing one’s own beliefs to the Church, and thinking it to be Orthodox.

A person who accepts the Orthodox Faith must accept it as true for all. There is no other option, harsh or not. Until you do that, you can’t really be in communion.

 

[IoanC]

So, you don’t really hold Orthodox thinking, but actually relativist thought. If you think Orthodoxy is only true for those who like it, or choose to believe it, you have not yet come to Orthodoxy. It is possible to have been baptized,to attemd church, and still be far from the mind of the Church. This is a prime example of bringing one’s own beliefs to the Church, and thinking it to be Orthodox.

A person who accepts the Orthodox Faith must accept it as true for all. There is no other option, harsh or not. Until you do that, you can’t really be in communion.

Yes, but I have to be in communion with those who are not orthodox, as well. Their humanity is not different than mine.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I meant that it is not my place to tell others what to do or what to believe. Orthodoxy is generally explained as the only way to be saved which is harsh. Orthodoxy is the only true faith for those who are orthodox, not for people of different beliefs, in my opinion.

if that’s true, Christ would not have sent His disciples to preach and become fishers of men. truth isn’t relative like that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, but I have to be in communion with those who are not orthodox, as well. Their humanity is not different than mine.

that’s not what being in communion means.

 

[IoanC]

Ok. I should mention again that the above are just my opinions. Opinions are not exactly correct in orthodoxy. Proves I am far from perfect...