Replying to an Orthodox objection to - kneeling on Sundays

[MoNiCa4316]

Happy Easter everyone

I was wondering if anyone knows about this. An Orthodox poster in another forum said that the early Church Canon about standing (not kneeling) in church, applies to the whole Church, not just the East. Does anyone know the Catholic response to this? Was there another Canon made later on that allowed kneeling (so was this just a time-specific thing, based on how kneeling was seen, vs now)? I always thought before that in the East, they saw kneeling as penance so it wasn't allowed on Sunday, but in the West it's a sign of humility so it's okay... but the Orthodox person was saying how the Canon was actually binding on the whole Church. Any thoughts? I just don't know enough about this topic.

thanks!

btw here's the Canon:

"There are some people who kneel down on Sunday and during the Easter season, the fifty days from Easter Sunday to Pentecost Sunday. Therefore, it has pleased the holy Council to decree that people should offer their prayers to the Lord, standing. This is required so that in each diocese (en pase paroikia) everything will be done in harmony ..."
Nicea - 325AD

I don't really understand what the last part means exactly...

 

[FullyMT]

Happy Easter everyone

I was wondering if anyone knows about this. An Orthodox poster in another forum said that the early Church Canon about standing (not kneeling) in church, applies to the whole Church, not just the East. Does anyone know the Catholic response to this? Was there another Canon made later on that allowed kneeling (so was this just a time-specific thing, based on how kneeling was seen, vs now)? I always thought before that in the East, they saw kneeling as penance so it wasn't allowed on Sunday, but in the West it's a sign of humility so it's okay... but the Orthodox person was saying how the Canon was actually binding on the whole Church. Any thoughts? I just don't know enough about this topic.

thanks!

btw here's the Canon:

"There are some people who kneel down on Sunday and during the Easter season, the fifty days from Easter Sunday to Pentecost Sunday. Therefore, it has pleased the holy Council to decree that people should offer their prayers to the Lord, standing. This is required so that in each diocese (en pase paroikia) everything will be done in harmony ..."
Nicea - 325AD

I don't really understand what the last part means exactly...

Happy Easter!

Canon's concerning the shape of the liturgy are allowed to change, generally speaking. I think it is more important to look into the purpose of standing and kneeling.
Standing is a stance of attention.
Kneeling is a stance of humility and repentance (emphasis on the repentance depending on the culture).
Most Eastern Rites do not kneel during the Eucharist liturgy because it is seen as a penitential act. But what we should be doing is thanksgiving and praise, therefore it would be inappropriate to kneel.
With the rise of scholasticism and emphasis on the moment of consecration, a sense of humility was cultivated in the West, so kneeling became common practice. (I recognize that you've already discussed this, but I wanted to flush it out more).
It is also important to note that the Western Liturgies develop moreso than the Eastern Rites which are generally celebrated in the same manner as they were in the 200s-400s. Canons regarding Liturgy can be modified and changed so long as the beliefs of the Liturgy and general structure remain intact (even if they are moved around).

 

[AMDG]

EWTN answers the question of kneeling in the Catholic Church:

Kneeling at the Consecration

Although the Eastern Orthodox don't kneel--they stand--the Catholic Church kneels during Consecration out of respect for Our Lord made present on our altars. And in the U.S. the Bishops petitioned the Pope (and the petition was granted) to have kneeling for the *entire* Eucharistic prayer.

Adoremus (www.adoremus.org ) has numerous articles concerning the posture of kneeling.

Hope this helps.

 

[Anhelyna]

But Monica - please remember you are canonically Eastern Catholic - and strictly speaking the Eastern Churches also do not approve of kneeling on Sundays - but it is done by some - and we really do not make a fuss over it

 

[AMDG]

But Monica - please remember you are canonically Eastern Catholic - and strictly speaking the Eastern Churches also do not approve of kneeling on Sundays - but it is done by some - and we really do not make a fuss over it

Apologies Anhelyna. I should have mentioned that standing is the "Eastern way". (I think it is mentioned in one of the links the profound bow at the Consecration replaces the Latin Church's kneeling at the Consecration.)

 

[Gwendolyn]

The West didn't start kneeling until the middle ages. I'll pull some dates later.

 

[Andrew21091]

We kneel in the parish I go to on Sundays during the consecration of the Eucharist. It is fairly common in Greek and Antiochian Orthodox parishes.

 

[Gwendolyn]

We kneel in the parish I go to on Sundays during the consecration of the Eucharist. It is fairly common in Greek and Antiochian Orthodox parishes.

really? in the Greek parish I visit occasionally, they stand (even though there are pews - people sit for the homily).

 

[AMDG]

The West didn't start kneeling until the middle ages.

Don't know about that Gwen. As for when there was kneeling, it looks like you'll be having to go back to the writings of the New Testament itself!
Philippians 2:9-11--
"Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"


Honestly Adoremus (www.adoremus.org) has some excellent articles about kneeling and the history of kneeling. And you know, the devil has no knees.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That's true of the Serbian parish I visit. They never sit for anything except the sermon.

After attending the Orthodox Church for almost a year, when I have returned to the Catholic Mass, wow, it feels so weird to sit and kneel. It's a different mindset altogether really.

Pews didn't even exist until, like was said earlier, until late in the game. Pews and sitting are more of a Protestant innovation from what I've read. That doesn't mean they're necessarily bad at all, just not an ancient thing.

really? in the Greek parish I visit occasionally, they stand (even though there are pews - people sit for the homily).

 

[stone]

I will always kneel in God's presence.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Don't know about that Gwen. As for when there was kneeling, it looks like you'll be having to go back to the writings of the New Testament itself!
Philippians 2:9-11--
"Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"


Honestly Adoremus (www.adoremus.org) has some excellent articles about kneeling and the history of kneeling. And you know, the devil has no knees.

Doesn't mean early Christians knelt on Sunday. All Christians kneel in penitence and reverence, but the Lord's day was a day of joy and praise for the Resurrection, and kneeling was associated with penitence when it came to the liturgy. Like Monica posted, canons forbade it, but that did change for the west in the middle ages when the West began to focus more on the crucifixion, penance, and sin vs the East's focus on joy in the resurrection. Both halves of the same coin forming a full picture of Christ's salvific work, but I was distinctly told my a liturgical historian that kneeling did not become practice in the West until the middle ages.

 

[AMDG]

Doesn't mean early Christians knelt on Sunday.

Well, since Jesus knelt when praying (Luke 22:42) and we don't claim to be better than Jesus, it's a good bet that they actually did.

Here's an article with more Bible verses that show kneeling:

"Why don't they want us to kneel at Mass?"

Adoremus also has an article by Cardinal Ratzinger (now the Pope) about kneeling. It also has an excellent article titled "Every Knee Shall Bend, But When". Believe there are dates in that as well (but it's been a long time since I've read the articles--I believe it was published in 1999--so I can't be sure if it's that one or some other.)

 

[Gwendolyn]

Well, since Jesus knelt when praying (Luke 22:42) and we don't claim to be better than Jesus, it's a good bet that they actually did.

Here's an article with more Bible verses that show kneeling:

"Why don't they want us to kneel at Mass?"

Adoremus also has an article by Cardinal Ratzinger (now the Pope) about kneeling. It also has an excellent article titled "Every Knee Shall Bend, But When". Believe there are dates in that as well (but it's been a long time since I've read the articles--I believe it was published in 1999--so I can't be sure if it's that one or some other.)

I haven't said that Christians didn't kneel. I said that they did not kneel in penitence during Liturgy before the middle ages.

 

[FullyMT]

I haven't said that Christians didn't kneel. I said that they did not kneel in penitence during Liturgy before the middle ages.

Oh Anselm and Paschasius...

 

[AMDG]

I haven't said that Christians didn't kneel. I said that they did not kneel in penitence during Liturgy before the middle ages.

Of course kneeling is also adoration and supplication, as many of the Bible verses show.

I think this article dicusses four different types of kneeling, speaks about canon 20 and the idea of no kneeling on Sundays and also offers a different view about kneeling on Sundays:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/04/kneeling-in-church-on-sundays.html

Still the Latin Church does require kneeling and that should be followed (no mixing of the Rites).

And if I were to meet Jesus, I think I'd follow the example of His cousin, St. John and prostrate myself before Him--I don't think I'd be checking old canons and days of the week to see if it's okay.

 

[Fantine]

I will always kneel in God's presence.

Or you may be lucky enough to reach a ripe old age--and then you won't.

I always heard that the cathedrals in Europe didn't have kneelers, and I have no idea whether kneeling is customary in the third world.

Personally, I'm not into kneeling. I play the organ at one Mass a week (and occasional weddings and funerals) and feel like my "pay" is not having to kneel. I wasn't into kneeling as a child and, fifty years later, I'm still not.....but I only figured out the organ playing part twenty years ago. Darn.

 

[LOCO]

I'm with Cardinal Arinze when Prefect of CDF stated "If you truly believe Christ is present in the Eucharist, why don't you kneel or why don't you crawl? Why don't you show him the respect he is due, who are you to stand in his presence?"

He did make exceptions for the ill, physically challenged and elderly etc. but those who can, should kneel.

 

[AMDG]

Or you may be lucky enough to reach a ripe old age--and then you won't.

With age, I find the kneeling position a lot more possible than the standing position (especially if the standing is for a long time.)

I always heard that the cathedrals in Europe didn't have kneelers, and I have no idea whether kneeling is customary in the third world.

That was covered in one of the articles I linked to. Person said that he Has been to Rome and there *are* kneelers, but even if there weren't, that doesn't mean that there is no kneeling. We are *required* to kneel, *not* that the churches are required to have kneelers. (BTW EWTN sells individual foam kneelers and I know that the altar servers atthe military chapel would that I attend simply bring a pad for when they had to kneel.)

You know, I doubt that anyone has noticed but if there had to be an early canon forbidding kneeling on Sundays (and therefore militarizing unified posture of the community) that would mean that there were an amazing amount of folks who chose to kneel rather than stand, and it was disrupting the unity of communal prayer. Well, now we in the Latin Church are again expected to kneel in adoration at the Consecration.

Personally, I'm not into kneeling. I play the organ at one Mass a week (and occasional weddings and funerals) and feel like my "pay" is not having to kneel. I wasn't into kneeling as a child and, fifty years later, I'm still not.....but I only figured out the organ playing part twenty years ago. Darn.

Think the Church has always allowed those physically unable to kneel to "sit out". If someone simply can't do it, he's not expected to do the impossible.

 

[AMDG]

I'm with Cardinal Arinze when Prefect of CDF stated "If you truly believe Christ is present in the Eucharist, why don't you kneel or why don't you crawl? Why don't you show him the respect he is due, who are you to stand in his presence?"