Shelb5 said:
Yeah, he did and he did it so "sins may be forgiven."
Okay. I'll try and break this down reeeeeaaaal simple for you. If Christ atonED for the sins then they HAVE BEEN forgiven. That's what atoned means in a biblical context. The grammatical meaning of the word even implies that same thing:
Atone - reconcile, supply satisfaction for, EXPIATE.
Expiate - to put an end to, to extinguish the guilt incurred by, to make amends for
(synonyms for atone): compensate, pay, recompense, satisfy; appease, conciliate, propitiate
So, ACCORDING TO YOU, Christ has reconciled ALL MANKIND to the Father, satisfied the wrath of the Father against the sinfulness of ALL MANKIND, put an end to the sin of ALL MANKIND, pay the price for the sin of ALL MANKIND, appeased the Father for the sinfulness of ALL MANKIND, and regained the favor and goodwill of God for ALL MANKIND. ACCORDING TO YOU, all of this is already done, yet all it ACTUALLY accomplishes is that "sins may be forgiven?"
Michelle, if you are just going to continue using words incorrectly then this discussion is going nowhere fast. You have a history of doing this. You use words like "atone" and "propitiate" and use them in a grammatically incorrect way and then justify it by saying that it is MY definitions you don't agree with. Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but those aren't MY definitions. That's what the words mean.
Yep, all sins are atoned for but not all sinners are redeemed.
Pleeease, someone who knows Catholic doctrine and the meaning of the word "atoned" help this poster. Michelle, pray tell, if the sins are already atoned for what is it that a person must account for on judgment day? If the price for every sin ever committed by mankind has ALREADY been paid then that would justify every single person ever created to go to Heaven. Is that the Catholic position on redemption. Please tell me I'm mistaken.
I could say the same to you.
I have, numerous times. I seriously think you don't know what the word actually means. Look it up. It means that the COMPLETE payment has been made to appease the recipient of the atonement. COMPLETE. That means that if ANYTHING else needs to be done for that payment to be secured then it was not atoned for.
Do the actual meanings of those words that I posted above help you at all?
I use it as in Christ wrote the check out at the cross and the funds are valid to all who will cash the check.
So you save yourself by cashing the check? I know you're going to dispute this but, BEFORE YOU DO, ask yourself if the funds would be applied to you if you didn't "cash the check." If you have to do something, like "cash the check," then it didn't happen by the grace of God because you DID merit the funds being applied to your account. You had to add something to the work of Christ or the work of Christ has no effect in you salvific disposition. At the very best the most you can say is that you and Christ TOGETHER accomplish your salvation.
But I am trying to understand your theology, it seem as if obedience is a fruit of being truly saved
Well, that's what the Gospel says:
Romans 8:8
So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Here the Word says that those who are "in the flesh," which means those who are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, i.e., regenerate, CANNOT please God. "Cannot" is not a reference to permission. It's a reference to ability. It is not within the ability of the unregenerate to please God. Don't you think that if they obeyed Him it would please Him?
What about the regenerate?
Matthew 7:17
Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
and if you are truly saved, you will be obedient, and you will be repentful and all other virtues will follow
There is not, of course, a 100% inculcation of the righteousness of Christ when we are made children of God. We still harbor fleshly desires that, through the process of sanctification, we put off. However, the mark of salvation is an honest desire, which subsequently manifests itself in the appropriate actions, to follow the Law of God and serve Him in obedience. Again, this does not happen at all times in our lives. We fall short. We struggle. The difference is shown clearly in the distinction between the effect of sin on the unregenerate and the believer:
The law affecting the believer:
Romans 7:25
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the LAW OF SIN.
The law affecting the non believer:
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.
God bless