Repenting of sins not neccesary for salvation?

Reformationist

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2calvary said:
The blood shed at the cross gives the remission of sin("In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: " - Col 1:14), believing receives remission of sins("everyone who believes in him will receive remission of sins.? - Acts 10:43).

Question: Is remission of sin received by repenting, being baptized, or just believing?

So why do some believe and some don't? And what do you mean by "believe?" The reason I ask is that you can be pretty sure you're going to get someone quoting James 2:19 unless you qualify that.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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sweetsoulsong said:
Excuse my sluggishness in response here, but thanks Reformationist, that was good.

Oh...thanks. I'm not sure what for but thanks for the encouragement anyway. :)

Does this mean...that those who have not had "hands laid on them" do not have the Spirit...? By the way, I hear this from a tv preacher.

No.

God bless
 
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Benedicta00

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Reformationist said:
They have been forgiven for Christ's sake, not our own. He atoned for them. You can slice it any way you want but either you have to take the Catholic track and apply the atone work of Christ to ONLY the stain of original sin or you must acknowledge that the obedience of Christ, even unto death, atonED (notice the tense), for our sins.

The Catholic track is that Christ did atone for all the sins of the world, not just original sin. I do not know where you got that the cross is only to take away Adam's sin and not our personal sin???



This would be an issue of all God did was forgive us. Thank His gracious name that that is not all He does. Living a lifestyle of sinfulness, which is markedly different than sinning, is something that the Christian puts off, due to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I sure wish you'd stop saying "we all believe..." without being more specific about what it is that you THINK "we all believe." You believe repentence is a must IN ORDER TO BE SAVED whereas I believe salvation is a must IN ORDER TO REPENT. Pretty big difference.



Once again, a non issue. Those who are born again DO repent so it is pointless to consider the consequence for those who are born again who do not repent.



I guess it depends on what you credit for your desire and subsequent commission of the act of repentence. If you believe repentence to be due to the efficacious grace of God then no, no mockery is made. However, if you credit your own "cooperation" with that grace as the catalyst for your act of repentence then sure, I would say that's a mockery.

God bless

What is so wrong with admitting that repentance after being saved by grace is required by God and if you believe in the reformed theology then that means God provides the full requirement in you and if you are a free will believer then that means you cooperated with the grace that God gives, either way if you don’t repent after you offended God, you were either not really saved or you really won’t be saved. What’s the difference? Bottom line is Christian repents.
 
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CyphaPSU

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sweetsoulsong said:
I have another question, in Acts, it says that believers got the Spirit when er...the apostles "laid hands on them"...something that has to do with laying hands on the believers and praying.

Does this mean...that those who have not had "hands laid on them" do not have the Spirit...? By the way, I hear this from a tv preacher.
The idea that the only way to receive the Holy Spirit is clearly unscriptural and sounds like something that comes out of the "Faith Movement" in today's church. I'm amazed at the number of unsound teachings that come from today's "TV preachers." There are some really good ones, but there seem to be many preachers on TV that teach unbiblical doctrines. This would be one of them.

It is true that one of the ways believers in Acts received the Holy Spirit was through the laying on of hands by the Apostles. However, this must be taken into context with the rest of Scripture...and even Acts for that matter. What is going on in Acts is certainly a unique situation as you have the ministry of the Holy Spirit beginning and the Gospel messege starting to go out into the gentile world.


People Recieve the Holy Spirit Through Ways Other than the Laying on of Hands

Take a look at Acts 1:4-5. Jesus tells the disciples to "wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

This "baptism" with the Holy Spirit that Jesus promises is fulfilled at Pentecost in chapter 2, when the disciples received the Holy Spirit for the first time.

Acts 2:2-4 "And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

Those there received the Holy Spirit not through the laying of hands, but rather through an extraordinary, supernatural event (this too is also a unique case in Scripture). So this "baptism" with the Holy Spirit occurs not through the laying on of hands, nor even through water baptism, but by the simple coming of the Holy Spirit upon them. I think the uniqueness of Pentecost is that the beginning of the Holy Spirit's ministry on Earth had to start with a visible big bang. People needed to see something extraordinary to recognize the the coming of the Spirit. I think a simple concept is going on with the laying on of hands by the Apostles in Acts--that this was still the beginning of the Holy Spirit's ministry (there was no New Testament for believers to look to for teaching on the Holy Spirit, yet) and that people needed a way to recognize that the Holy Spirit's coming into their lives--the laying on of hands conveys this visible sign.

Take a look at Acts 2:38. "Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
He mentions nothing of the idea of the laying on of hands in order for a believer to receive the Spirit.

Acts 10:43-47 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

This is yet another clear example of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit into believers which is not associated with the laying on of hands.
(consequently from this passage, the Holy Spirit's entering into the hearts of believers is also not associated with a water baptism--which some believe is necessary in order to receive the Holy Spirit)

Also see Acts 11:15-17


The Holy Spirit is Given to All Believers

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."
Notice that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is connected to "having also believed." It does not say "having also been layed upon and prayed for." The promise of the Holy Spirit, according to this passage, is to those who believe.

Titus 3:4-6 "But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior."
The Holy Spirit is involved in the salvation process of the believer, "renewing the believer," whom God pours into the heart of a believer at the moment of regeneration and renewal (salvation).

1 John 4:13-16 "By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him."
Those who "abide" in Christ have His Spirit...that's how believers know they belong to God. Those who "abide" in Christ are those that confess and believe in Christ. Therefore all who believe in Christ have the Holy Spirit--we see it has nothing to do with the laying on of hands or with water baptism.

I could go on and on with more Scripture, but I think these cover the basics. Hope this helps. Godspeed.
 
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Reformationist

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Shelb5 said:
The Catholic track is that Christ did atone for all the sins of the world, not just original sin. I do not know where you got that the cross is only to take away Adam's sin and not our personal sin???

Actually I got that from you but I must have misunderstood. My apologies. So it is your contention that every sin of every person ever created has already been atoned for? That would make you a universalist.

What is so wrong with admitting that repentance after being saved by grace is required by God

Nothing, as long as I'm not admitting to "repentence after being saved by grace is required by God to remain saved."

and if you believe in the reformed theology then that means God provides the full requirement in you and if you are a free will believer then that means you cooperated with the grace that God gives, either way if you don?t repent after you offended God, you were either not really saved or you really won?t be saved. What?s the difference? Bottom line is Christian repents.

I'm not discussing the difference between the anthropocentric view that God's grace is only effective if you cooperate and the God centered view that His grace ALWAYS accomplishes that for which He gives it. What I'm curious about is whether you see a difference between repentence being required to be obedient and repentence being required for salvation?

God bless
 
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Benedicta00

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Reformationist said:
Actually I got that from you but I must have misunderstood. My apologies. So it is your contention that every sin of every person ever created has already been atoned for? That would make you a universalist.

No it doesn't, it makes me a Catholic. Jesus’ blood was shed for humanity, so that mankind may be saved. To tell you the truth, is there sufficient evidence that they are lost souls in hell other than the fallen angels? We know the bible speaks of occupants there but it does not specifically say that it is occupied with human souls. The Catholic stance is that, other than those who the Church canonizes, we simple do not know the fate of anyone else, we hope and we leave them to God's mercy and we pray for them but we never assume that anyone is in hell because we believe God does not predestine souls that way, we believe all people will be given a chance to accept Christ as their savior, so we have hope. If that means Catholic are universalistic, then, cool.



Nothing, as long as I'm not admitting to "repentence after being saved by grace is required by God to remain saved."

If he gives you a heart that repents then obviously he requires repentance from you, no??


I'm not discussing the difference between the anthropocentric view that God's grace is only effective if you cooperate and the God centered view that His grace ALWAYS accomplishes that for which He gives it. What I'm curious about is whether you see a difference between repentence being required to be obedient and repentence being required for salvation?

God bless

Why are we required to be obedient? And if we are then we are saved and if we aren't, then what?
 
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water_ripple

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I feel that the Apostle Paul put this exact question and answer very nicely..

Romans 5:1-11 THEREFORE being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: kowing that tribulation worketh patience: (4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope: (5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. (6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. (8) But God commadeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled unto God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (11) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

About repentance..

Romans 6:1-12 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (2) God Forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (12) Let not sin therefo reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Paul had a thorn in his side and had to die everyday...So must we. It is a battle and we have to give everything we have got to repent.

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wrethched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
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Reformationist

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Shelb5 said:
No it doesn't, it makes me a Catholic. Jesus’ blood was shed for humanity, so that mankind may be saved.
That's not what you said. You said, "Christ DID ATONE for all the sins of the world, not just original sin."

So, according to you, all sins, original and personal, have been atonED for.

You should look up the word "atone." It might help.

Additionally, as I've said before, when you introduce the word "may" in the context that you use it, you have to acknowledge there are two possibilities aside from the possibility that some are saved and some are not. Those possibilities are as follows: All are saved. None are saved. Do you think it's possible that the death of Christ could have saved none? If not, then your use of the word "may" becomes nothing more than an effort to justify your position, despite the contradiction with the Gospel.






If he gives you a heart that repents then obviously he requires repentance from you, no??
Asked and answered, numerous times.





Why are we required to be obedient? And if we are then we are saved and if we aren't, then what?
The Word clearly says that when we have kept the ENTIRE Law of God we have done NOTHING more than what was required of us. Let me ask you something Michelle. Are you obedient? Is there ever a time when you aren't obedient? If so, that makes you disobedient. If our salvation depended on our ALWAYS being obedient then no one would be saved.

God bless
 
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Benedicta00

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Reformationist said:
That's not what you said. You said, "Christ DID ATONE for all the sins of the world, not just original sin."

Yeah, he did and he did it so "sins may be forgiven."


So, according to you, all sins, original and personal, have been atonED for.

Yep, all sins are atoned for but not all sinners are redeemed.

You should look up the word "atone." It might help.

I could say the same to you.

Additionally, as I've said before, when you introduce the word "may" in the context that you use it, you have to acknowledge there are two possibilities aside from the possibility that some are saved and some are not. Those possibilities are as follows: All are saved. None are saved. Do you think it's possible that the death of Christ could have saved none? If not, then your use of the word "may" becomes nothing more than an effort to justify your position, despite the contradiction with the Gospel.

I use it as in Christ wrote the check out at the cross and the funds are valid to all who will cash the check.


The Word clearly says that when we have kept the ENTIRE Law of God we have done NOTHING more than what was required of us. Let me ask you something Michelle. Are you obedient? Is there ever a time when you aren't obedient? If so, that makes you disobedient. If our salvation depended on our ALWAYS being obedient then no one would be saved.

God bless

Obedience is a virtue like any other virtue that I work on and mercy is there when I fail. But I am trying to understand your theology, it seem as if obedience is a fruit of being truly saved and if you are truly saved, you will be obedient, and you will be repentful and all other virtues will follow, then you will be saved because you truly are saved not because you are obedient.
 
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Reformationist

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Shelb5 said:
Yeah, he did and he did it so "sins may be forgiven."

Okay. I'll try and break this down reeeeeaaaal simple for you. If Christ atonED for the sins then they HAVE BEEN forgiven. That's what atoned means in a biblical context. The grammatical meaning of the word even implies that same thing:

Atone - reconcile, supply satisfaction for, EXPIATE.

Expiate - to put an end to, to extinguish the guilt incurred by, to make amends for

(synonyms for atone): compensate, pay, recompense, satisfy; appease, conciliate, propitiate

So, ACCORDING TO YOU, Christ has reconciled ALL MANKIND to the Father, satisfied the wrath of the Father against the sinfulness of ALL MANKIND, put an end to the sin of ALL MANKIND, pay the price for the sin of ALL MANKIND, appeased the Father for the sinfulness of ALL MANKIND, and regained the favor and goodwill of God for ALL MANKIND. ACCORDING TO YOU, all of this is already done, yet all it ACTUALLY accomplishes is that "sins may be forgiven?"

Michelle, if you are just going to continue using words incorrectly then this discussion is going nowhere fast. You have a history of doing this. You use words like "atone" and "propitiate" and use them in a grammatically incorrect way and then justify it by saying that it is MY definitions you don't agree with. Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but those aren't MY definitions. That's what the words mean.

Yep, all sins are atoned for but not all sinners are redeemed.

Pleeease, someone who knows Catholic doctrine and the meaning of the word "atoned" help this poster. Michelle, pray tell, if the sins are already atoned for what is it that a person must account for on judgment day? If the price for every sin ever committed by mankind has ALREADY been paid then that would justify every single person ever created to go to Heaven. Is that the Catholic position on redemption. Please tell me I'm mistaken.

I could say the same to you.

I have, numerous times. I seriously think you don't know what the word actually means. Look it up. It means that the COMPLETE payment has been made to appease the recipient of the atonement. COMPLETE. That means that if ANYTHING else needs to be done for that payment to be secured then it was not atoned for.

Do the actual meanings of those words that I posted above help you at all?

I use it as in Christ wrote the check out at the cross and the funds are valid to all who will cash the check.

So you save yourself by cashing the check? I know you're going to dispute this but, BEFORE YOU DO, ask yourself if the funds would be applied to you if you didn't "cash the check." If you have to do something, like "cash the check," then it didn't happen by the grace of God because you DID merit the funds being applied to your account. You had to add something to the work of Christ or the work of Christ has no effect in you salvific disposition. At the very best the most you can say is that you and Christ TOGETHER accomplish your salvation.

But I am trying to understand your theology, it seem as if obedience is a fruit of being truly saved

Well, that's what the Gospel says:

Romans 8:8
So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here the Word says that those who are "in the flesh," which means those who are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, i.e., regenerate, CANNOT please God. "Cannot" is not a reference to permission. It's a reference to ability. It is not within the ability of the unregenerate to please God. Don't you think that if they obeyed Him it would please Him?

What about the regenerate?

Matthew 7:17
Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

and if you are truly saved, you will be obedient, and you will be repentful and all other virtues will follow

There is not, of course, a 100% inculcation of the righteousness of Christ when we are made children of God. We still harbor fleshly desires that, through the process of sanctification, we put off. However, the mark of salvation is an honest desire, which subsequently manifests itself in the appropriate actions, to follow the Law of God and serve Him in obedience. Again, this does not happen at all times in our lives. We fall short. We struggle. The difference is shown clearly in the distinction between the effect of sin on the unregenerate and the believer:

The law affecting the believer:

Romans 7:25
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the LAW OF SIN.

The law affecting the non believer:

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

God bless
 
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