Repeating radio transmission detected from another galaxy

usexpat97

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Radagast

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or mathematically/cryptographically prove that the repeating transmissions do not contain information of some sort.

Well, that could never be proved, since randomness and information are the same thing. One would spot aliens by recognising a specific meaningful pattern (say, prime numbers).

But there are no aliens here. Like FRB 121102, there would be a physical process behind it.
 
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rambot

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So basically the radio signals are bouncing off the ionosphere (Skywave - Wikipedia) and some $cientist fraud wants more funding to continue the study.

Radio propagation - Wikipedia
Yes, a scientist fraud wants to learn something. Sorry that that takes money....
In the meantime.
List of religious leaders convicted of crimes - Wikipedia (note, those are crimes that have been tested by evidence in court and not simply accusations based on a distrust and vocal simulated youtube videos)
 
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morse86

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Yes, a scientist fraud wants to learn something. Sorry that that takes money....
In the meantime.
List of religious leaders convicted of crimes - Wikipedia (note, those are crimes that have been tested by evidence in court and not simply accusations based on a distrust and vocal simulated youtube videos)

Did you expect anything different from those false prophets?

Matthew 7:15-16:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
 
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Tanj

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https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/01/09/world/second-repeating-fast-radio-burst-detected/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

An astrophysical phenomenon that has not been ruled out as intelligent life yet. We either need to discover the source, or mathematically/cryptographically prove that the repeating transmissions do not contain information of some sort.

IMHO repeating is not that interesting, things spin around alot in the universe so regular patters are expected.

Also, another galaxy? Think about the size of the emitter needed to generate a signal we could see. This thing has to be the size of a star.
 
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rambot

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Did you expect anything different from those false prophets?
Sorry. I haven't heard any single one of their sermons and I do not know about the strength and truthfulness of their message. I mean, I know it's easy to call them "false prophets", but do you know what every single one of them was preaching and believed? Even what their relationship with God is like?
 
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morse86

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Sorry. I haven't heard any single one of their sermons and I do not know about the strength and truthfulness of their message. I mean, I know it's easy to call them "false prophets", but do you know what every single one of them was preaching and believed? Even what their relationship with God is like?

Do you know what the verse above meant? By their fruit (their actions and their words). They are of the world, the world hears them (hence the millions and millions of followers and lifestyle).
 
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rambot

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Do you know what the verse above meant? By their fruit (their actions and their words). They are of the world, the world hears them (hence the millions and millions of followers and lifestyle).
So Fred Phelps had millions and millions of followers?

Nah.

And we only know about these because of their legal conviction and court action.
 
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usexpat97

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Prophets, false or otherwise, are best left out of scientific discussion. That's when we start getting into Copernicus and throwing Galileo in jail.

Randomness and information are NOT the same. Randomness follows a consistent spectral pattern (usually white noise). DNA contains information, which while a natural phenomenon, is most certainly not random.

I can see how a star-sized mass might be necessary to detect it. However, this detection was using cutting-edge RF receiver research, and it's possible an intelligent lifeform would direct the signal specifically in this direction (because they thought this region likely to support life?). That it's repeating suggests directionality.
 
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Radagast

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Randomness and information are NOT the same. Randomness follows a consistent spectral pattern (usually white noise). DNA contains information, which while a natural phenomenon, is most certainly not random.

Information content, as measured by Kolmogorov complexity, is maximal for random data.

Here are (a) a totally random sequence of A's, T's, G's, and C's, and (b) part of the human genome. Which is which? How exactly do you spot the "information"?

ACATTTGCTTCTGACACAACTGTGTTCACTAGCAACCTCAAACAGACACCATGGTGCATCTGACTCCTGA
GGAGAAGTCTGCCGTTACTGCCCTGTGGGGCAAGGTGAACGTGGATGAAGTTGGTGGTGAGGCCCTGGGC
AGGTTGGTATCAAGGTTACAAGACAGGTTTAAGGAGACCAATAGAAACTGGGCATGTGGAGACAGAGAAG
ACTCTTGGGTTTCTGATAGGCACTGACTCTCTCTGCCTATTGGTCTATTTTCCCACCCTTAGGCTGCTGG
TGGTCTACCCTTGGACCCAGAGGTTCTTTGAGTCCTTTGGGGATCTGTCCACTCCTGATGCTGTTATGGG
CAACCCTAAGGTGAAGGCTCATGGCAAGAAAGTGCTCGGTGCCTTTAGTGATGGCCTGGCTCACCTGGAC
AACCTCAAGGGCACCTTTGCCACACTGAGTGAGCTGCACTGTGACAAGCTGCACGTGGATCCTGAGAACT
TCAGGGTGAGTCTATGGGACGCTTGATGTTTTCTTTCCCCTTCTTTTCTATGGTTAAGTTCATGTCATAG
GAAGGGGATAAGTAACAGGGTACAGTTTAGAATGGGAAACAGACGAATGATTGCATCAGTGTGGAAGTCT
CAGGATCGTTTTAGTTTCTTTTATTTGCTGTTCATAACAATTGTTTTCTTTTGTTTAATTCTTGCTTTCT
TTTTTTTTCTTCTCCGCAATTTTTACTATTATACTTAATGCCTTAACATTGTGTATAACAAAAGGAAATA
TCTCTGAGATACATTAAGTAACTTAAAAAAAAACTTTACACAGTCTGCCTAGTACATTACTATTTGGAAT
ATATGTGTGCTTATTTGCATATTCATAATCTCCCTACTTTATTTTCTTTTATTTTTAATTGATACATAAT
CATTATACATATTTATGGGTTAAAGTGTAATGTTTTAATATGTGTACACATATTGACCAAATCAGGGTAA
TTTTGCATTTGTAATTTTAAAAAATGCTTTCTTCTTTTAATATACTTTTTTGTTTATCTTATTTCTAATA
CTTTCCCTAATCTCTTTCTTTCAGGGCAATAATGATACAATGTATCATGCCTCTTTGCACCATTCTAAAG
AATAACAGTGATAATTTCTGGGTTAAGGCAATAGCAATATCTCTGCATATAAATATTTCTGCATATAAAT
TGTAACTGATGTAAGAGGTTTCATATTGCTAATAGCAGCTACAATCCAGCTACCATTCTGCTTTTATTTT
ATGGTTGGGATAAGGCTGGATTATTCTGAGTCCAAGCTAGGCCCTTTTGCTAATCATGTTCATACCTCTT
ATCTTCCTCCCACAGCTCCTGGGCAACGTGCTGGTCTGTGTGCTGGCCCATCACTTTGGCAAAGAATTCA
CCCCACCAGTGCAGGCTGCCTATCAGAAAGTGGTGGCTGGTGTGGCTAATGCCCTGGCCCACAAGTATCA
CTAAGCTCGCTTTCTTGCTGTCCAATTTCTATTAAAGGTTCCTTTGTTCCCTAAGTCCAACTACTAAACT
GGGGGATATTATGAAGGGCCTTGAGCATCTGGATTCTGCCTAATAAAAAACATTTATTTTCATTGC


CGACATCCACTAAACGGGTGACAGCTGTACTCAGAAAAATTAAAAAATTACTAAAGGGTACGTGTGGTAG
CCTATGAATACGACGTGCTGGTATCATTCGAGCCACATCACGGGTGGAGCTTGGCTGTAGCGCACCGTAC
TGACCGTTCATCAGCATGCATGGAGAGTATTGATTTTCTCGAACGACATATATGGTCCCTGGTCACGACA
CACAGCAGCGATCGAGCACAGGCTCGAGTTTGGCAAATCTATATACCTCTAGGGATATGGATGAGGCCGT
CCGCCTTTTTTGTAAACATATTCCCTCTCCGCAGCATTGCCTTTATGCTGGAGTGGGTTATTGCACCCCA
GATATTTCTCACCACGCTTATTCAGTTTCGCAATAACAGACTGCTGGTTATTTGCTATCGTTGGAAGTAA
GCCAACCGGGCGACTTATACGTTGGTGGGTCGCGTGACCTTAGTGACGATTGAGTTATGGTTTTGATAAC
TAATTGGCAGGGAACTTAAAGAACTTGACTATTTTACTCCAGCTTTTATCATCCCATGTTTCAAGCTACG
CTAGTACCTTTATGGTCGTGTCTTTTCTCCCTTAATAATTAGTGGTTCACCCTCAGCGGTTTAGTACATA
TGCAAGTACGTCGGGAAACCTCGGCTAGGGCTACGCCTGGGGCTTCCGACGCTTACTGGTATTACTGTGT
ACGCTTTTACTTCTACAGAACGGCACCCCTTGACAGAAAAGACTTAAAACGTGGTCCGATAAACACGGCC
ACGCACGGAAATCTCCTTCATGGCGAAATCTTACATGCTACTGGTTGGGTTCCAAGGACGTAAGCATGTG
ACCCCGAAGTTCTTGTTCTTCTGAAGCTTAGGTTAGTTCCACAACGGCGGCTGTAGACCCCTGGGAGGAG
CATTAGATTTGAATGATCGAATTGGTGTGTACTTGTCGCAAAGCGCTGAGGACCCGCTGACCGGGGTCCG
CGGCGGTATGTGAGGTCAGGCATTACCCACATGCCTTACATTGGAGCGCGAACCATTTGCGAAACACCCG
TGCAGGACTGGGTCCTGGCTACGATCGGGCACAGACTCGAGTCCGTTGGTGAAATAACGCTATTGTCCGT
CCATTTTTCGCAGGGGAGGTACGCATAATCTTCCGGATCTACTAAATTCTGCTACATCGATCCGCTCTGA
TGCCAGCCCGCTGACATGACGCACGGGAGCGGCCCTTCGAAAGTTCGCTTCGTAAAACCTCCGGCCTTCT
GGGACGTGAACGGACTATTAGCCCATAGGAGATTGCGACAAACTCTCAGAGCGTGATTGCTGTGGGACAC
GACCTTTCCTCCTCAGCAGTTTAAGACACTGGTTCCAGGTCCACCAGGCGGTCACGAGTGTCGCCAGCAT
ATCTAGAAAGGATACGGCACGCTGACAGCCAGCGGGGCGCGAGGTAAACGCCCTCATTTCTAGGCCAACC
TACCGCTGTTCCAAGCACCTAGTCGCTGTGAGTACATGTTGGAAGCCATTTACATCGAGCACGTGATTAA
TAATGATACCGGTGGGTGGCTTGTTATCGCCACGTAAATAGCCGTTCATAATTGAAGGCAATTGAG
 
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usexpat97

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You actually made my point. We need the mathematicians and cryptographers to decipher the signal and rule out information from an alien lifeform. We know for a fact DNA contains information, as the end result clearly shows.

Now, the easier exercise is simply to discover the source. If we can do that. the former exercise goes moot.
 
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Radagast

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You actually made my point. We need the mathematicians and cryptographers to decipher the signal and rule out information from an alien lifeform.

And, as someone with a degree of expertise, I'm saying you can't do that, although you can spot something that's likely to have intelligent origin, like 100100010000010000000100000000000100000000000001... (prime numbers).

We know for a fact DNA contains information

Only in the sense that every random A/T/G/C sequence with the right start and stop markers can be interpreted as a protein of some kind.

And, if you don't like Kolmogorov complexity as a measure of "information," what exactly do you mean by that word?
 
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usexpat97

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We know that DNA contains information because it produces humans, dogs, cats, kangaroos, black ones, white ones.... And those beget other humans, dogs, cats.... Were it random, you would be no more likely to have a human baby than a puppy. For that matter, a random DNA sequence would never produce such a complex, well-oiled machine as an organism in the first place.

Informational signatures cannot be EASILY detected, or with 100% certainty. Your example contains much more information than just prime numbers, though: you have a serial bitstream of 1's and 0's. These are RF transmissions we're talking about. The mere detection of a digitized bitstream within a statistically-impossible spectral concentration would singlehandedly indicate intelligent life. And by that I don't just mean an analog signal you can take the 90/10 point of (obviously all analog has that quality). I mean repeated digital patterns which do not repeat if you analyze the same signal as an analog waveform.

Or--the far more likely outcome--that someone can match the RF signature with a known astrophysical phenomenon. At that point it becomes neither random nor information, nor intelligent life: that is ordered spontaneity. We have an international community of very bright people in multiple fields; not to mention Big Data. We have a good chance to figure it out.
 
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Radagast

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For that matter, a random DNA sequence would never produce such a complex, well-oiled machine as an organism in the first place.

True. Ultimately you can tell which DNA sequence corresponds to an actual animal or plant by trying to grow it (assuming you have the requisite cellular machinery, such as an ovum of the correct species).

Informational signatures cannot be EASILY detected, or with 100% certainty.

I'm still hazy on what you mean by "information." If you mean "having a meaning assigned by an external semantics," then such a signature cannot in general be detected at all, unless you know what the external semantics is. Certain kinds of encryption cannot be broken, for example.

Your example contains much more information than just prime numbers, though: you have a serial bitstream of 1's and 0's.

If you prefer, think of the 1's as pulses, and the 0's as time periods with no pulse.

A physical process might generate regular pulses (100100100100100100100100100...) or less regular ones (1001000100100010010001001000...) or even chaotic ones. It would be unlikely to produce a prime number sequence.
 
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Radagast

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That's when we start getting into Copernicus and throwing Galileo in jail.

Was Galileo thrown in jail? He was certainly under house arrest for a long time, but that's not the same thing.

Randomness and information are NOT the same.

It would help if you would define "information." One standard way of measuring information is with Kolmogorov complexity. On this definition, a random bit sequence contains maximal information.
 
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Ringo84

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Hmm...if it is proven that there is intelligent life sending these signals, does that mean that "steel slats" will have the be built around the Earth to protect from the "crisis" of aliens coming to here?
Ringo
 
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Goonie

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Hmm...if it is proven that there is intelligent life sending these signals, does that mean that "steel slats" will have the be built around the Earth to protect from the "crisis" of aliens coming to here?
Ringo
Obviously not! Clearly we will have to build a dome on the flat earth!
 
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