Reopen America or Save American Lives?

[LostMarbels]

It will also be chaos if 50 million people are sick at the same time and 50,000 are dying per day. What China demonstrated is that it's possible to control the outbreak by shutting things down hard for a couple of months, and then gradually easing up. Essential services can remain functional throughout, and massive government support can ease the financial burden. It's not a pleasant course, but it makes a lot more sense than trying to avoid the pain.

We cannot kill people and allow them to starve over "IF"


It will also be chaos "if" 300 million people are rioting and 73,00 are dying a day.

 

[sfs]

We cannot kill people and allow them to starve over "IF"


It will also be chaos "if" 300 million people are rioting and 73,00 are dying a day.

But why should any of that happen? Lockdowns don't cause starvation. Why would 300 million people start rioting? How many people starved during the lockdowns in China? How many rioted?

 

[LostMarbels]

This isn't china. We have a constitution. And rights. These 'pesky inconveniences' some people call civil liberties. Also, being locked up for months will bring this country to its knees even if the virus does not.

 

[sfs]

This isn't china. We have a constitution. And rights. These 'pesky inconveniences' some people call civil liberties. Also, being locked up for months will bring this country to its knees even if the virus does not.

So the Chinese can handle being locked down for a couple of months, but American society will fall apart, we'll all start rioting, and for some reason we'll start starving. You have a very low opinion of Americans.

 

[LostMarbels]

So the Chinese can handle being locked down for a couple of months, but American society will fall apart, we'll all start rioting, and for some reason we'll start starving. You have a very low opinion of Americans.

The problem is this will destroy everything that has been gained, and there is no reason to continue down this path into destitution.

 

[sfs]

The problem is this will destroy everything that has been gained, and there is no reason to continue down this path into destitution.

The virus is here, it's real, it's killing people, and it's going to hurt the economy. Those are all facts we have to deal with. The overwhelming consensus of those who spend their lives thinking about how to respond to this kind of crisis is that imposing stricter measures early ends up causing less pain -- both in death and in economic loss -- than not doing so. You've given no reason to think that they're wrong.

 

[LostMarbels]

The virus is here, it's real, it's killing people, and it's going to hurt the economy.

Forcing people to not work, to not make purchases, to not generate taxes is going to hurt the economy. The economy doesn't get sick. It's not even hurting right now, it has a man made wet blanket over it. It takes time to smother embers. Time we cant afford to allow to snuff out the economy.

Those are all facts we have to deal with. The overwhelming consensus of those who spend their lives thinking about how to respond to this kind of crisis is that imposing stricter measures early ends up causing less pain -- both in death and in economic loss -- than not doing so. You've given no reason to think that they're wrong.

This is not a communist country. People are only going to comply for so long. Unless I have a gps box strapped to my ankle, no one has the right to force me to stay in my home.

I'm a grown man. I know how to cover my face and use hand sanitiser. You stay home.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Here in the UK we are not getting much information on numbers affected. We get the confirmed cases, but only people admitted to hospital are tested. What we dont get is the total number of people affected who didnt need to go to hospital.

There are a couple of snippets I have picked up though. 8 days ago an estimate of 55,000 was given. That was I think people currently infected. Yesterday a doctor on the news made a comment that 80% of sufferers would have mild symptoms; that is quite an important figure as it means millions will get serious symptoms. That for me is a key reason why we need to stay in lockdown. No way the NHS will cope with that.

The other key bit of information coming out that makes me think lockdown is the only logical way to go forward, here in the UK The figures reported are 8077 cases, 281 deaths and only 65 recoveries. I think this is daily figures but the publication of information is very unclear and vague so cant be sure. The key thing is the low number of recoveries, particularly in relation to deaths.

Just a heads up, but something to keep in mind since the low number of recoveries is concerning to you, is that someone is not considered recovered until they are devoid of a fever for a period of days and have 2 successive negative tests for coronavirus.

I think they test them once after the fever is gone, and then wait two days and test again and if they are still negative they are considered recovered.

They say in the more mild cases people will be sick for 10-14 days. That's actually a long period of time really, so of course if the coronavirus is causing more severe complications they may be dealing with illness for longer.

So if UK is only testing severe cases, you'll be showing fewer recovered cases early on...

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Economists warn that keeping the U.S. closed will result in a crisis far worse than the Great Depression. But health experts warn to reopen the U.S. would expose millions of Americans to the Coronavirus.

Looking for the sweet spot between the two.
Not an easy call.
Either way some will blame Trump.

Although his handling of the Coronavirus has his approval ratings up.

Pray for a speedy end to all this.

M-Bob

 

[LostMarbels]

Looking for the sweet spot between the two.
Not an easy call.
Either way some will blame Trump.

Although his handling of the Coronavirus has his approval ratings up.

Pray for a speedy end to all this.

M-Bob

I honestly believe we can act responsibly and live with this, instead of try and hide from it. We will, absolutely will have to modify our behavior, but our economy will die without opening this country up. If our economy tanks, we are very likely in an even worse situation if the virus persist beyond the point we have become bankrupt.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Just a heads up, but something to keep in mind since the low number of recoveries is concerning to you, is that someone is not considered recovered until they are devoid of a fever for a period of days and have 2 successive negative tests for coronavirus.

I think they test them once after the fever is gone, and then wait two days and test again and if they are still negative they are considered recovered.

They say in the more mild cases people will be sick for 10-14 days. That's actually a long period of time really, so of course if the coronavirus is causing more severe complications they may be dealing with illness for longer.

So if UK is only testing severe cases, you'll be showing fewer recovered cases early on...

Some of the key information I wanted to know has been released today. Gives a breakdown of how different age groups are affected and how many people need hospital treatment.
Should young people be worried about coronavirus?

For my age group its about 5% needing hospital treatment and only 5% of hospital admissions need critical care. Im not worried about it, my faith is strong enough that I am not afraid of the situation.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The virus is here, it's real, it's killing people, and it's going to hurt the economy. Those are all facts we have to deal with. The overwhelming consensus of those who spend their lives thinking about how to respond to this kind of crisis is that imposing stricter measures early ends up causing less pain -- both in death and in economic loss -- than not doing so. You've given no reason to think that they're wrong.

Forcing people to not work, to not make purchases, to not generate taxes is going to hurt the economy. The economy doesn't get sick. It's not even hurting right now, it has a man made wet blanket over it. It takes time to smother embers. Time we cant afford to allow to snuff out the economy.



This is not a communist country. People are only going to comply for so long. Unless I have a gps box strapped to my ankle, no one has the right to force me to stay in my home.

I'm a grown man. I know how to cover my face and use hand sanitiser. You stay home.

There are two considerations, one medical, one economic. Key is to find a balance between the two that works to best advantage...

You can save someone's life from a medical standpoint, which is the concern of doctors, but destroy him economically to the point you may as well never have saved him in the first place.

You can take some hits economically and be fine nationally, but this type of hit will almost always affect the working poor disproportionately and far more negatively than the general population...

So it's always a matter of doing the best you can with a balancing act.

It's easier to focus and bear the trial if you see an end in sight, than if you see no end.

Doom and gloom doesn't sell, people need goals to aim for, and then work toward that goal. Certainly goals can change as situations do, but people need something they can grab onto and work toward... that end in sight that won't make them homeless.

 

[Danthemailman]

I had previously read an article in USNEWS:

Why the Flu Is Still a Bigger Threat to Americans Than Coronavirus. While concerns about the coronavirus are growing, experts warn people not to forget a deadlier virus: the flu.

More than 8,000 people in the U.S. have died from the flu this season, which peaks between December and February, according to CDC estimates.

During the 2018-2019 season, the CDC estimates 16.5 million people went to a health care provider for the flu and more than 34,000 people died in the U.S. The prior season saw 61,000 deaths.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...is-a-bigger-threat-to-the-us-than-coronavirus

Is there an agenda here?

 

[LostMarbels]

I had previously read an article in USNEWS:

Why the Flu Is Still a Bigger Threat to Americans Than Coronavirus. While concerns about the coronavirus are growing, experts warn people not to forget a deadlier virus: the flu.

More than 8,000 people in the U.S. have died from the flu this season, which peaks between December and February, according to CDC estimates.

During the 2018-2019 season, the CDC estimates 16.5 million people went to a health care provider for the flu and more than 34,000 people died in the U.S. The prior season saw 61,000 deaths.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...is-a-bigger-threat-to-the-us-than-coronavirus

Is there an agenda here?

I definitely believe the virus is both real, and is being used for political reasons.

Everything about this falls right in line with the last 4 years. Destroy the economy. Create unemployment. Cause panic. Smear Trump for the fallout.

 

[sfs]

had previously read an article in USNEWS:

Why the Flu Is Still a Bigger Threat to Americans Than Coronavirus. While concerns about the coronavirus are growing, experts warn people not to forget a deadlier virus: the flu.

That article is from January. The situation has changed dramatically since then.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

I had previously read an article in USNEWS:

Why the Flu Is Still a Bigger Threat to Americans Than Coronavirus. While concerns about the coronavirus are growing, experts warn people not to forget a deadlier virus: the flu.

More than 8,000 people in the U.S. have died from the flu this season, which peaks between December and February, according to CDC estimates.

During the 2018-2019 season, the CDC estimates 16.5 million people went to a health care provider for the flu and more than 34,000 people died in the U.S. The prior season saw 61,000 deaths.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...is-a-bigger-threat-to-the-us-than-coronavirus

Is there an agenda here?

That's weird isn't it? Why were flu death rates so low compared to previous years?

Something an article mentioned that I read yesterday, was the only way to know the real impact of the disease is to compare annual mortality rates with morality rates during the outbreak.

Many who are dying now, are dying as a result of complications from their preexisting conditions that this virus doesn't play well with; diseases which likely would have killed them anyway. We don't call the death of an 86 y/o man, for instance, anything but normal. At that point in life pretty much anything could cause his death. Same goes for someone going through chemo with a lowered immune system etc.

With the Spanish flu outbreak the mortality rates could wipe out entire villages. An Alaskan village at the time with a population of 72 had the flu go through and decimate the entire population where only 7 survived. So it was obviously serious, it was obviously something that was abnormal to that populations normal mortality rates, and other populations faced truly abnormal mortality rates as well.

Whereas with the coronavirus we are seeing this disparity on a much smaller scale... and when we look back on it with a better ability to compare normal mortality rates with rates during the coronavirus outbreaks we may see a lower mortality rate than we now believe we are seeing...

Possible anyway. The lower mortality rates due to the flu made me think of that...

 

[Danthemailman]

That article is from January. The situation has changed dramatically since then.

This article is more up to date. I still smell an agenda.

Our leadership in the U.S. seem to be in a Catch 22. The harder they push for the shutting down of businesses and keeping people at home, the more lives they may save, at the cost of the US economy, which will also have a ripple effect worldwide. But if they loosen up on the restrictions in order to help save the economy, then they risk the virus spreading more and becoming an even greater risk to our citizens. Slamming the brakes on our economy will cause devastating pain on many people with lost jobs, lost wages, lost pensions and even bankruptcy. Regardless of what decisions are made, the fingers will still get pointed at our leadership for not making the right choices at the right time.

 

[loveofourlord]

The problem is this will destroy everything that has been gained, and there is no reason to continue down this path into destitution.

SO WILL THE VIRUS, this isn't a all or nothing game, eitehr way there is harm which people like you don't get.

 

[loveofourlord]

This isn't china. We have a constitution. And rights. These 'pesky inconveniences' some people call civil liberties. Also, being locked up for months will bring this country to its knees even if the virus does not.

what is the damage to the economy of many people dying including the young because they can't get the medical care they need, millions being sick thousands of people dying and losing loved ones.

 

[Deade]

SO WILL THE VIRUS, this isn't a all or nothing game, eitehr way there is harm which people like you don't get.

This is more of the media's fear mongering. It's a Chicken Little scenario "The sky is falling!" Many restaurants and small grocery stores will not survive more than two weeks being shut down. I have owned two small businesses and it was always very hand to mouth the first few years.

It is easy to push the panic button on a new virus, but most viruses are new each mutation anyway. We have and we will survive. The fear mongering in the media is mostly pointed at blaming Trump for anything and everything. The media elite just want him gone. If you can't smell that agenda, you have no nose.