Remove the American Flag from Churches Immediately

[High Fidelity]

Why on earth would there be a flag in church to begin with? Is it common in the U.S.?

The flag certainly seems to have become an idol, though.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I wonder what the author does with a black church that has the American flag.

Why?

 

[Sketcher]

Why?

Seems his paradigm doesn't take such a church into account.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Seems his paradigm doesn't take such a church into account.

Such a church? He didn't racialize the churches. He was message was to ALL churches.

 

[RDKirk]

I wonder what the author does with a black church that has the American flag.

Do you know of one?

I worshiped as a child in black churches in the South that had them back in the early 60s, but that was back when the federal government was an ally in fighting segregation.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Seems his paradigm doesn't take such a church into account.

How do you figure that?

 

[Sketcher]

Such a church? He didn't racialize the churches. He was message was to ALL churches.

I didn't say that he did racialize churches. But he did make a claim that posting the flag in a church keeps us from failing to love one's black neighbor because of some perceived idolatry about America. But there are black churches where believers certainly love their neighbors and cry out for justice together, and of that number, there are some that have the flag there. I think they know what they think of the flag and why. Why does an opinion on the flag that intersects with blackness in America need to be prescribed to them?

Do you know of one?

I worshiped as a child in black churches in the South that had them back in the early 60s, but that was back when the federal government was an ally in fighting segregation.

Yes I do.

How do you figure that?

See my response to Handmaid for Jesus.

 

[RDKirk]

I didn't say that he did racialize churches. But he did make a claim that posting the flag in a church keeps us from failing to love one's black neighbor because of some perceived idolatry about America. But there are black churches where believers certainly love their neighbors and cry out for justice together, and of that number, there are some that have the flag there. I think they know what they think of the flag and why. Why does an opinion on the flag that intersects with blackness in America need to be prescribed to them?


Yes I do.

And what response have those congregations given to the issue of kneeling during the national anthem?

As a man who served in the military, whose family has done so for a hundred years, I'll point out that believing in the stated core ideals of "America" does not mean that black Americans can't or won't harshly criticize America for failing to live up to its own core ideals.

Don't think that black congregations can't have a flag in their sanctuaries and yet be in full sympathy with those who kneel at the anthem.

 

[miamited]

Hi armenianjohn,

I agree and have long since believed that allegiance to earthly lines in the sand have no place in a place set aside to worship God. It doesn't matter whether that worship building is in the United States or Brazil or any other of the more than 200 countries of the world. For the born again believer, our allegiance is to God and the places where we worship Him should be holy places. Set aside only for His praise and glory. It's fine in a place of God's worship to pray for our nation leaders, but signs and symbols that give some impression that our allegiance is to such things is highly suspect to me.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[dogs4thewin]

We have BOTH in our church ( not on a pole or anything, but when we pledged we would pledge to both AND to the Bible One can love both, and we are to respect both. The Bible even says to obey our Earthly leaders UP to disobeying God.

 

[miamited]

We have BOTH in our church ( not on a pole or anything, but when we pledged we would pledge to both AND to the Bible One can love both, and we are to respect both. The Bible even says to obey our Earthly leaders UP to disobeying God.

Hi D4TW,

So, there's a law that the national flag must be displayed in a worship center? I ask because I'm not making the connection that we should fly the national flag in our worship centers because 'the bible even says to obey our earthly leaders up to disobeying God', then means that we should fly national flags in our worship centers. Is there a law that we would be disobeying if we don't? Just because you have both in your fellowship doesn't make it some 'right' thing to do. Why God would enjoy seeing some symbol that represents such an overall wicked bunch of people that are the United States, is quite beyond my grasp.

But, your position is that, hey, if your fellowship is in Brazil, then you should fly the Brazilian flag in your worship center. If your worship is in Cuba, then you should fly the Cuban flag in your worship centers. If your fellowship is in Russia, Croatia, Iran, Egypt, Bosnia, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Great Britain, et.al., then each worship center should fly the flag of whatever country they are in, inside their respective worship centers. Is that what the law says according to you?

BTW, just for my own curiosity, you say that the flags in your worship center or not on a pole or anything, how are they displayed? Do you have large flags pinned to the walls or something. Hanging as banners from the ceiling?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[bekkilyn]

Sure, we might render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, but that doesn't mean we also need to be putting up a statue of him in the sanctuary. Not sure how putting up a secular flag is any different than setting up a statue of Caesar and pledging our love and loyalty to it.

 

[Sketcher]

And what response have those congregations given to the issue of kneeling during the national anthem?

As a man who served in the military, whose family has done so for a hundred years, I'll point out that believing in the stated core ideals of "America" does not mean that black Americans can't or won't harshly criticize America for failing to live up to its own core ideals.

Don't think that black congregations can't have a flag in their sanctuaries and yet be in full sympathy with those who kneel at the anthem.

That I could not tell you. I believe the response is likely mixed. But that's a bit different from having it in the sanctuary.

 

[RDKirk]

We have BOTH in our church ( not on a pole or anything, but when we pledged we would pledge to both AND to the Bible One can love both, and we are to respect both.

No. Jesus is clear: You can only love one. Period.

The Bible even says to obey our Earthly leaders UP to disobeying God.

The Bible says obey their laws, honor their officials, pay their taxes. Period.

When I was active duty overseas in a host nation, we were given the same commands: While in their country, obey their laws, honor their officials, pay their taxes.

We did not invest ourselves into their culture, give allegiance to their nation, or consider ourselves natives in any way. We certainly didn't have their flags in our ceremonies.

 

[Tallguy88]

In my church we have both the US flag and the Vatican flag and they are equally placed at the front of the nave. There is nothing unChristian about displaying an American flag, either at home or at church. The problem comes when it becomes idolatrous, but it isn't for most people. We pray to God and the saints, not a flag.

 

[RDKirk]

In my church we have both the US flag and the Vatican flag and they are equally placed at the front of the nave. There is nothing unChristian about displaying an American flag, either at home or at church. The problem comes when it becomes idolatrous, but it isn't for most people. We pray to God and the saints, not a flag.

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? -- Romans 6

This is actually the true definition of "idolatry." Just as we already know that surface worship--going through the motions-- is not true worship, if one is merely "going through the motions," that's not necessarily idolatry, either.

The scriptural example of that very thing is found in the OT, the story of the Syrian general Naaman healed of epilepsy by Elisha. The general becomes a believer in the God of Abraham, but points out a problem:

"May the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to worship, and he leans on my arm and I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.” Elisha said to him, “Go in peace.” -- 1 Kings 5

The true definition of "idolatry" is when we allow anything other than service to the Lord to dictate our actions. Whatever dictated my action in any moment was master in that decision, because your master is the one you actually obey, not the one for whom you merely go through some motions.

So that might mean some deacon back in the '50s put an American flag up in the santuary and nobody has questioned it, everyone just goes through the motions of maintaining it, and nobody cares about it one way or another.

Okay, maybe so.

But if, in fact, the congregation placed the American flag in the sanctuary as the profession of an intention of allegiance, fealty, and obedience to "America," then they have made "America" (whatever it may be) their moral dictator, an authority of action, an idol of obedience.

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

...you are slaves of the one you obey....

 

[Tallguy88]

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? -- Romans 6

This is actually the true definition of "idolatry." Just as we already know that surface worship--going through the motions-- is not true worship, if one is merely "going through the motions," that's not necessarily idolatry, either.

The scriptural example of that very thing is found in the OT, the story of the Syrian general Naaman healed of epilepsy by Elisha. The general becomes a believer in the God of Abraham, but points out a problem:

"May the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to worship, and he leans on my arm and I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.” Elisha said to him, “Go in peace.” -- 1 Kings 5

The true definition of "idolatry" is when we allow anything other than service to the Lord to dictate our actions. Whatever dictated my action in any moment was master in that decision, because your master is the one you actually obey, not the one for whom you merely go through some motions.

So that might mean some deacon back in the '50s put an American flag up in the santuary and nobody has questioned it, everyone just goes through the motions of maintaining it, and nobody cares about it one way or another.

Okay, maybe so.

But if, in fact, the congregation placed the American flag in the sanctuary as the profession of an intention of allegiance, fealty, and obedience to "America," then they have made "America" (whatever it may be) their moral dictator, an authority of action, an idol of obedience.

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

...you are slaves of the one you obey....

They typically were placed there in remembrance of our soldiers and often with a prayer book so that family members could write down their relatives so that they would be prayed for. The flag itself is a reminder to pray for our neighbors and our country.

It isn't against Catholic rules or theology to have a national flag in church. In fact there's no church-wide or nation-wide rules on the display of flags in church. It's up to the bishop or the priest to decide the specifics, but the most widely observed rule that I know of is that the flag shouldn't be in the sanctuary. In our church it is on the line between the nave and the sanctuary (there's no physical separation) and opposite a Vatican flag on the other side of the room.

 

[dogs4thewin]

No. Jesus is clear: You can only love one. Period.



The Bible says obey their laws, honor their officials, pay their taxes. Period.

When I was active duty overseas in a host nation, we were given the same commands: While in their country, obey their laws, honor their officials, pay their taxes.

We did not invest ourselves into their culture, give allegiance to their nation, or consider ourselves natives in any way. We certainly didn't have their flags in our ceremonies.

With all due respect, and thank you for your service, but as someone who has served I would gather that you DO love this country ( particularly if you served for a long period of time and/or were not drafted. Does that mean that you place the country OVER the Lord no, but I would think that as someone who served you would realize that it IS OK to have a certain amount of love of and loyalty to this country.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Hi D4TW,

So, there's a law that the national flag must be displayed in a worship center? I ask because I'm not making the connection that we should fly the national flag in our worship centers because 'the bible even says to obey our earthly leaders up to disobeying God', then means that we should fly national flags in our worship centers. Is there a law that we would be disobeying if we don't? Just because you have both in your fellowship doesn't make it some 'right' thing to do. Why God would enjoy seeing some symbol that represents such an overall wicked bunch of people that are the United States, is quite beyond my grasp.

But, your position is that, hey, if your fellowship is in Brazil, then you should fly the Brazilian flag in your worship center. If your worship is in Cuba, then you should fly the Cuban flag in your worship centers. If your fellowship is in Russia, Croatia, Iran, Egypt, Bosnia, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Great Britain, et.al., then each worship center should fly the flag of whatever country they are in, inside their respective worship centers. Is that what the law says according to you?

BTW, just for my own curiosity, you say that the flags in your worship center or not on a pole or anything, how are they displayed? Do you have large flags pinned to the walls or something. Hanging as banners from the ceiling?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

It is not the law as far as I am aware. My point was that the Bible says we are to respect and obey the officials but to NOT do so if they order us to do something that would oppose God ( such as deny Him or worship something other than Him) My point was that we can therefore be loyal to our country and still be a Christian and still love the Lord.

As to how the flags were displayed I was meaning that they were not on a pole where one COULD be over the other they are each on their own and meant to be displayed inside on their own pole.

 

[miamited]

It is not the law as far as I am aware. My point was that the Bible says we are to respect and obey the officials but to NOT do so if they order us to do something that would oppose God ( such as deny Him or worship something other than Him) My point was that we can therefore be loyal to our country and still be a Christian and still love the Lord.

As to how the flags were displayed I was meaning that they were not on a pole where one COULD be over the other they are each on their own and meant to be displayed inside on their own pole.

Hi D4TW,

Right, I agree that's what the Scriptures say. Yes, we, individually, can be loyal to our country and still be a christian and still love the Lord. That doesn't put nation flags in worship centers. The fellowship I attended with in Miami used to have the American flag on one side of the podium and the christian flag on the other side, probably much like you're describing. They took the American flag out at least 15 years ago. It's actually so bad with me that I don't much like to attend services on national holidays like 4th of July, Veterans day and so forth. I just think God's people in God's house should be about worshiping God and not nations. I would likely refuse to say the pledge of allegiance in a worship center. Fortunately, I haven't been put to that test yet.

God bless,
In Christ, ted