Remnant of Israel = 144,000

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D.E.Smith

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Judah is a part of Israel. Israel is not a part of Judah. Judah is only one of the twelve tribes. Israel is all twelve tribes.

When Daniel prayed he considered himself part of Israel, which is all the tribes. Even though he was himself personaly probably from the tribe of Judah. But he never prayed for Judah. He prayed for the full house of Israel.

When Paul wrote it was to the Gentiles who knew not of the other lost tribes. So Paul speaks to them of the Jews, who were still around in the area. He does't mention the other tribes because they were unkown to the Gentiles since they long ceased to exist as a group.

But Jesus and James speak of the "lost tribes" and are attempting to recover them. They don't speak of Judah at all.

To say that Judah was a lost tribe undermines the terminology. Then what are the other actual lost tribes who were taken captivity to Assyria and never regrouped? Are they then the " lost lost tribes?"

Hi DanaB

Thanks again for sharing. For some reason in America christians don't seem to get that God is not a respecter of persons. He has no preference for any people regardless of race, or ethnicity.

(KJV) AC 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

(NIV) Ro 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

Why is it not understood that the law is a shadow of better things?

(NIV) HEB 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves.

The Jews were given the law. The law was given to all the tribes of Israel including Judah, Benjamin, and the ten lost tribes. They were the people of the law. Just as the law was a shadow and not the reality, so were the people of the law -Judah and the lost tribes are the shadow people and not the reality. The reality is found in Christ and all those who trust in him.

(NIV) Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The real jews are spiritual being made up of the lost sheep of Israel (Judah) and the lost tribes (Gentiles).

Paul stated that the truth jews were not determined by ethnicity. His point was that only the jews who believed the gospel were of Israel and this included believing gentiles as well.

(NIV) RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

The children of the promise is all those who believe in Christ and this is not based on natural DNA but on faith in the finished work of Christ. Again, Paul understood this and interpreted an old testament scripture referring to the lost tribes as referring to the gentiles. Hosea prophesied the fate of the northern kingdom (the ten tribes) where God was going to scatter them and then reunite them.

HOS 1:4 Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. 5 In that day I will break Israel's bow in the Valley of Jezreel."

HOS 1:10 "Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, `You are not my people,' they will be called `sons of the living God.' 11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will be reunited, and they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.


However, the Apostle Paul interpreted this reunion as referring to the joining of the believers from Judah with the gentile believers. He quotes from Hosea and sees the reality of the restoration of the lost tribes as being fulfilled in the gentiles.

(NIV) Ro 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them `my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her `my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
RO 9:26 and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
`You are not my people,'
they will be called `sons of the living God.' "

As it says in Hosea, they will appoint one leader. That leader is Christ whom we appoint in our hearts when trust in him. God's concern is Adam(man/humans). The natural jews were his instruments of redemption, but his object of redemption is all mankind and natural jews are a shadow that point to his people redeemed from all mankind.

God Bless
 
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dana b

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This is all so complicated, I can't compile an understandable answer to the many ideas and questions being presented here.

What is the difference between Jews and the tribe of Judah? Are not the Israelites all 12 tribes? Do eleven of the tribes have to give up their heritage and all become Jews?

Do the Gentiles of Europe who accept Jesus's message now become Jews. Do the Jews now have to give up the first covenant law of Moses which is written in stone and books and now just follow the law in their hearts and minds as in Jer.31;31 and Heb.8;10?

Why does it say in Rev.15;3 that "they sing the song of Moses......and the song of the lamb? Are these two different groups who will both be saved, the Old Covenant which the "Jews" follow and the New Covenant which we Christian follow? Or how can we both follow the old law written in stone and the law in our hearts a minds?

This is too much confusion. The Bible says God is not the auther of confusion. I have found evidence that we are today in the 7th millennium and that there are both old and new covenants operating but I can't seem to explain it. I'm an author of confusion.
 
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NightHawkeye

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This is all so complicated, I can't compile an understandable answer to the many ideas and questions being presented here.
Just understand, dana b, that we're all on a journey. And the only way to get where we're going is one step at a time ...

What is the difference between Jews and the tribe of Judah? Are not the Israelites all 12 tribes? Do eleven of the tribes have to give up their heritage and all become Jews?
To which I would add: Why are the twelve tribes in Revelation different from those in the OT?

Do the Gentiles of Europe who accept Jesus's message now become Jews. Do the Jews now have to give up the first covenant law of Moses which is written in stone and books and now just follow the law in their hearts and minds as in Jer.31;31 and Heb.8;10?
To which I would add: Who is gentile and who is Jew? Is it a percentage thing? As I understand it, 25% Jew was good enough for Hitler's classification.

Why does it say in Rev.15;3 that "they sing the song of Moses......and the song of the lamb? Are these two different groups who will both be saved, the Old Covenant which the "Jews" follow and the New Covenant which we Christian follow? Or how can we both follow the old law written in stone and the law in our hearts a minds?
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
I'm forming an opinion that God doesn't care about many of the things we believe important.

This is too much confusion. The Bible says God is not the auther of confusion. I have found evidence that we are today in the 7th millennium and that there are both old and new covenants operating but I can't seem to explain it. I'm an author of confusion.
Defining the problem is the first step toward solution. Hope the change of perspective helps ..., at least a little.


.
 
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Hi DanaB

Nighthawk put it beautifully. Paraphrasing him "We are all in a growth process".

When we are born into the kingdom we go from consuming milk to meat. It is a process. This process continues until we see our Lord. The children of God differ in the areas they grow in and the rate of growth.

Even so, no matter what our stage of development is or what our gift is, these things give us a partial view and we want know fully until we see our Lord. The true test of the spirit residing in us and not just being upon us is LOVE.

NIV 1st Cor 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1CO 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

When I began to study prophecy, my views were different. I challenged those who expounded the views I now hold. I set out to prove them wrong. Because I was open minded to the truth, I was able to grow. I continue to grow.

I have found we the body of Christ need each other to grow. We must come together with open hearts to get the full benefit of the body of Christ.

I do not believe you have been the author of confusion. The biblical text that speaks of confusion is addressing protocol and order in the church and not the things we may misunderstand or understand as we grow. Paul is teaching how to maintain order in the service. (People speaking in tonques and disrupting the service without interpretation etc.)

1CO 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

NIV 1 co 14:31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

I hope this explains why I don't believe the process you and I are going through in our growth is born of confusion, but rather the thirst for a more intimate relationship with our God.

Now on the things you mentioned:

Do the Gentiles of Europe who accept Jesus's message now become Jews. Do the Jews now have to give up the first covenant law of Moses which is written in stone and books and now just follow the law in their hearts and minds as in Jer.31;31 and Heb.8;10?

The gentiles everywhere who accepts Jesus message are made jews. We are made jews according to the spirit and not according to the written code.

RO 2:28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

The jews who practice Judaism and the traditions of the law do not have to give up their traditions.

1CO 7:17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20 Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him.

Why does it say in Rev.15;3 that "they sing the song of Moses......and the song of the lamb? Are these two different groups who will both be saved, the Old Covenant which the "Jews" follow and the New Covenant which we Christian follow? Or how can we both follow the old law written in stone and the law in our hearts a minds?

I Believed Revelations 15:3 is talking about one people which are all the saved both jews and gentiles. This is fulfilled in Christ who fulfilled the law of Moses through his sacrafice as the lamb. All who believe in Christ fulfill the law of Moses through the law of Love.

John 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

The old covenant is fulfilled in the new. Christ fulfills it. All who trust in Christ have been credited with keeping all the law through its fulfillment. God does not change. He requires that the law be kept in every detail. He provided a way for us to keep it through his son who fulfills it. The two covenants are made one in Christ.

God Bless
 
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dana b

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I Believed Revelations 15:3 is talking about one people which are all the saved both jews and gentiles. This is fulfilled in Christ who fulfilled the law of Moses through his sacrafice as the lamb. All who believe in Christ fulfill the law of Moses through the law of Love.

So I will ask just one question at a time. How can those who believe in Christ fulfill the "law of Moses?"

The law of Moses demands that we carry out "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." So as followers of this old testament covenant we must punish wrongdoing with the appropriate stated punishment. The rules are in the Pentatuch. It says that for certain acts or crimes we must be stoned or killed ect.

I know that Jesus Christ revised this covenant with his new way of looking at things. But how can we do both. We cannot. We must forgive criminals in order to follow Jesus. So the above statement that "All who believe in Christ fulfull the law of Moses through the law of love does not make sense! You can only follow the old covenant or the new.
 
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I Believed Revelations 15:3 is talking about one people which are all the saved both jews and gentiles. This is fulfilled in Christ who fulfilled the law of Moses through his sacrafice as the lamb. All who believe in Christ fulfill the law of Moses through the law of Love.

So I will ask just one question at a time. How can those who believe in Christ fulfill the "law of Moses?"

The law of Moses demands that we carry out "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." So as followers of this old testament covenant we must punish wrongdoing with the appropriate stated punishment. The rules are in the Pentatuch. It says that for certain acts or crimes we must be stoned or killed ect.

I know that Jesus Christ revised this covenant with his new way of looking at things. But how can we do both. We cannot. We must forgive criminals in order to follow Jesus. So the above statement that "All who believe in Christ fulfull the law of Moses through the law of love does not make sense! You can only follow the old covenant or the new.

The whole law of the Old Testatment hang on two commandments

MT 22:34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
MT 22:37 Jesus replied: " `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Christ fulfills the law (all of it). It is because of love God gave his son Jesus. Jesus left one commandment in which all the law is fulfilled and all the commandments are kept.

NIV John 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

NIV John 15:17 This is my command: Love each other.

The apostle Paul understood Jesus commands and taught it to the Romans. He told the Romans how to fulfill the law:

RO 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
 
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dana b

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The whole law of the Old Testatment hang on two commandments

But how can the law of Moses "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" be carried out if we follow Christ's way and forgive. If someone knocks out the tooth of another then Moses(taught by God) said that we must communually catch this person and knock out his tooth the same way that he did to the other man. So this then developed a kingdom in the promised land of Canaan where everyone, because of this threat of punishment, stopped knocking out other peoples teeth. ect.

But if we now begin to forgive the tooth-knocker and let him go without punishing him, the law of Moses and it's effectivness is made void! I am not bringing this up just to argue with you but it is true. The effectivness of the first covenant of Moses subdued the people of selfish survival of the fittest tendencies and brought, for the first time, justice and peace to the land. That is why God demanded that the Israelites clense out all others from their promised land and strictly enforce the law with it's prescribed punishments.

"The book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth, but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayst observe to do according to all that is written therein; for then thou shalt make the way prosperous, and thou shalt have good success." Josh.1;8

"Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses,...." Josh.23;6

I'm not arguing against what Jesus said, God forbid. I am only myself realizing that there is more to these covenants and laws than can be glibbed over so simply.

The law of Justice is necessary as Jesus said. "For every infringment of the law we will pay the full recompense." The fact that thall of the laws hang on the two of loving God and our brothers does not nullify the law of justice with it's punishments. Jesus only meant here that we as Christians will now fulfill the prophesy of Jeremiah 31;31 and have the law of justice written in our minds and hearts. We will not need the outward written law in stone or the book in order to relized it and follow it. This is true for Christians. This is what the 7th millennium in European Christian Israel is about. We in the Christain Countries for the next 1000 years will follow, personally and collectivly in our governments the law but from our hearts and minds also. So instead of executing and escessivly punishing offenders we will restrain them but also have commpassion and mercy and help them. We add mercy and compassion to the law. This is not so simple as some might gloss over it.

I'm sorry but my lybrary computer has it's time up and I cannot re-read my post. I hope the spelling is not too terrible. This is a great discussion. thanks
 
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D.E.Smith

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Hi DanaB

I apologize for taking so long to respond. I will be brief.

In the last post you seem to be referring to accountability. That is love does not excuse one from being accountable for their actions. If one breaks the law they must pay the penalty. Some interpret Matt 5:38 as meaning we are not supposed to hold the guilty accountable.

(NIV) MT 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, `Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

When we interpret the scriptures we must consider all scriptures and not just proof text. We must compare scripture to scripture. We know Jesus is not saying we should not defend what is right. Let's look at another gospel witness:

(NIV) Luke 17:3 "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."

We notice here Jesus says rebuke the offender. We must call a wrong for what it is.

Also, in this life we often in up paying the consequences for our actions for justice demands it. That is why God set up ministers to carry out justice.

(NIV) RO 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

(NIV) 1PE 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

God called David a man after his own heart and forgave him his sins. As it says in the Psalms.

PS 32:1 Blessed is he
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.

Although God forgave David, the justice of God demanded he hold him accountable for the sin against Uriah the Hittite. As a consequence God said to him:

(KJV) 10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

God Bless

Truthseekeratl
D.E.
 
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John S

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The 144,000 will consist of 12,000 from all 12 Tribes of Israel. When you compare the names of the tribes from Genesis Chapter 49 to that of Revelations, you will notice that the tribe of Dan is not mentioned. That's because the antichrist will come from Dan, which in my opinion, is Italy.
The "Lost Tribes" moved into Europe and beyond. Because he remained loyal to God in Egypt, Joseph's Tribe would receive tremendous wealth and power (18th and 19th century Great Britain). Joseph's son's tribe would also receive great wealth and power (20th and 21st century United States). The Tribe of Zebulon, a sea-faring people, spread out and populated Central and South America.
In my opinion, except for the Tribe of Juda, which as predicted by Jacob, would remain faithful to their beliefs, the House of Israel moved into Europe and then into the Americas.
In other words, we are Israelite. George Washington was successful, against all odds, because Joseph remained loyal to God.
 
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